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+--- Thread: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? (/showthread.php?tid=1805)
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[8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Prog - 2008-09-10
As many of you may have observed the goblin tank is rarely used right now, becouse he's too weak in comparison. The problem is, that a goblin tank needs a teleporter to be strong against tanks which are cheaper than himself (thunder/ghost/heavy/[air ship]) and against which he is supposed to be strong. But a goblin tank + teleport is even more expensive than a sky tank, which is way more effective against everything. Especially in a gameplay where it is rather common to stay quite long on scout and change to a sky tank, or sometimes even demon tank early, the goblin lacks of strength to compete in late game, but is too expensive to be able to gain any advantage in mid game. As far as I have talked to other players (who I think to be experienced enough to have a good view on bt in general), most agree on that, so I'll ask here as well: Do you think that the goblin tank needs some kind of buff? And if yes, how should the tank be buffed?
A possibilty would be make the goblin stronger without a teleporter, for example by adding a short range teleport to the melee stun skill, like a blink+attack ability or rework it to be used from a range where the goblin gets a speed boost (for x sec) and moves straight to the aim for using the melee attack.
Btw: As the goblin combines rather badly with long range a stronger goblin tank may encourage people to play less scout+long range in the start, which might be a good thing to create a bigger variaty of starting strats.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - VanHelsing222 - 2008-09-10
I think the Goblin Tank isnt too weak.. but 6500 isnt a second and not a third tank... this is the problem... from the first tank to Gobo it takes too long time and from the second to Gobo its no use because mostly you will buy demon or sky tank... the tank should be more cheaper or expensive, of course with ability reworks (weaker or stronger)
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Giftfinger - 2008-09-10
Well it is just a thought but did you play your last games hb?
if so dont be surprised all second level tanks lbetween 2000-6500 are unintersting in this gameplay because they are just wasted gold if other players get demon 3min later.
In normaly play i think him balanced. Stronger than than heavy tank and weaker than earth robot.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - k-bones - 2008-09-10
Imo it looks like this:
1st tank -> Thunder/Air/HT -> Demon
1st tank/antigrav -> Gobo -> usually you need to wait for SF to match your tactics since Frostie is considered weak. But be patient, 12k Gazlow should fix that.
To all who say GT is weak without tele - you're partially right, but remember that goblin riot is strong against creeps and distant finish-offs (would get even better if Exo finally finds the right targeting for them
). However he loses against air due to lack of stun, but so does shredder. All over the game Thunder does better than Gobo since he's cheaper, all-rounded and not so much worse at killing people.The idea of boosting speed greatly before stun is good, I'd say it should be at least 100% increase.
Furthermore if you set extended requirements as default, all tactics that not include demon should come back ^^ then buying hulls for LTs wouldn't be a waste of cash anymore -> Gobo available without pain.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Exodus - 2008-09-10
k-bones Wrote:But be patient, 12k Gazlow should fix that.
I have no clue why you are thinking the new tank will be in that price range. Its most likely going to be cheaper.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - TKF - 2008-09-10
Exodus Wrote:I have no clue why you are thinking the new tank will be in that price range. Its most likely going to be cheaper.The main reason why he says so, is probably cuz it cost 12k in my bt mod 1.20. I made it bigger and increased it too 13.5k in 1.21.
I don't know which price class it should be in real BT. Maybe 5k-9k class fits well i guess. 6k or 7k is perfect imo. But I don't know what price class it will fit best
_________________
About the goblin tank, I think players hesitates to choose goblin tank cuz they see it got 500 less hp compared to it's price. When earth robot have better magic reduction and cost the has as it has in hp, It's much better choice imo.
I liked the old dmg on the hammer when it did 600 damage. I don't understand why you nerfed it to 500. Personally that's the reason why I stopped choosing goblin tank. Also hammer is ground only; goblin riots do only 50 dmg less and can hit air and it's ranged. Pro players chooses riots which hits everything, not the weak hammer which only hits the ground targets. It's melee skill so often very hard to use.
I don't know reducing the cost to 6k would be too imba?
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - k-bones - 2008-09-11
Hmm Exo I thought I saw that 12k cost somewhere... maybe I'm wrong, though it would fit perfectly imo as there is a big gap between demon and SF.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - TKF - 2008-09-11
Tanks above 10k is supposed to have bigger gaps between classes. Also the "Gazlow" tank look not that strong. Maybe Heavy Tank strong (weak) max.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Exodus - 2008-09-11
TKF Wrote:About the goblin tank, I think players hesitates to choose goblin tank cuz they see it got 500 less hp compared to it's price. When earth robot have better magic reduction and cost the has as it has in hp, It's much better choice imo.
I liked the old dmg on the hammer when it did 600 damage. I don't understand why you nerfed it to 500. Personally that's the reason why I stopped choosing goblin tank. Also hammer is ground only; goblin riots do only 50 dmg less and can hit air and it's ranged. Pro players chooses riots which hits everything, not the weak hammer which only hits the ground targets. It's melee skill so often very hard to use.
I don't know reducing the cost to 6k would be too imba?
You are right, there are some things I changed back then to keep the balance which now seem unnecessary. I think it should be no problem to increase the HP to the gold value.
As for the Goblin Riot, its quite unlikely that they will deal full damage to a single target, especially when there are other targets around. The hammer has also a strong stun which makes the difference in this case. It's right that Goblin Tank is more item dependent than other tanks, which is quite a disadvantage on its own. Increasing the speed while charging towards the target seems like a good suggestion.
k-bones Wrote:Hmm Exo I thought I saw that 12k cost somewhere... maybe I'm wrong, though it would fit perfectly imo as there is a big gap between demon and SF.
Seems like you missed the Frost Robot. Its almost like people completly forgot about him. But I don't think that the tank itself is too weak, its just about the requirements which messed everything up.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - TKF - 2008-09-12
6500hp goblin tank could be interesting. I was thinking of 6k gold, but 500 more hp instead is good too
So that change will happen? Probably... 8)
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Morkardar - 2008-09-12
A speed burst for the hammer would make this tank very very dangerous on its own.
A good solution in my opinion.
Those heavy scout abusers will have to change tank soon or get crushed with the mighty hammer
Goblin Riot is weak sometimes, but has its moments too.
It is very strong against huge packs of creeps on a long run.
It also can sometimes be used as finisher for running tanks... they are pretty fast.
Maybe they can be made even faster *g*
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Vomitus - 2008-09-20
Personally I would like to see teleportation instead of speed boost for the goblin hammer. 600-1000 distance I suppose. Teleport and stun - that's good. Increase slightly mana cost and cooldown if necessary.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Morkardar - 2008-09-20
Teleport is a bit too good!
You cannot escape that, unless it it broken by teleport breaker.
And even with that it is too strong!
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - DerSatan - 2008-09-20
remember this: if you click with the hammer on an opponent and then get stunned, there is no chance for you to abort that skill. goblin tank will continue to chase until the hammer comes or it dies.
now if it gets a speed bonus you can actually abuse this, because you know when your enemy used his hammer skill from some distance on you. stun him and retreat to your cp, he will follow you no matter what.
another thing is: when you dont get stunned, and you abort the hammer skill because the opponent reatreated early enough, the hammer will get the cooldown. at the moment, this is not the case, but it would be necessary because you could abuse the speed bonus anytime.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Morkardar - 2008-09-20
If you take a look at spiritbreaker dota hero, you will see it works fine, if you do it right.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - k-bones - 2008-09-20
How could you abuse it? Targeting friendly units is impossible, so retreating is not an option. The only 'abuse' is normal use:P Of course the skill should have range, for example activating burst in 1000 range (can be leveled)
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - xXxPownedxXx - 2008-09-20
In my opinion, goblin tank doesn't require any teleport stuff or anything added to his skills... Peeps like to get thunder & hvy to play safe, train the gobbie hammer & speed + speed, and you WILL get close enough to damage them, since hvy they first get good weap then speed, which is by then 7.5 - 10k before they have it... I'd say gobbie + light fantastic, speed & gold hull ==> even demon has to watch his bacon. The gobbie is a tank meant to fight along creeps and 1v1 fights.
In my opinion it's strong enough, people just dont know how to use. Same with earth robot. People dont know how to use, and then u ofc read topics like this that it's too weak. :twisted:
However a small teleport of 500 would be nice with hammer
would make me more imba
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - TKF - 2008-09-21
I remember the hammer did 600 dmg pr level in the past. Now it does only 500. (At one point it did 400, that was a real joke really!). Goblin riots does only 50 less dmg and can hit air, while the ground only hammer does 500 dmg, is very short range and hit ground only. I still find goblin riots much better, they are ranged to and does splash dmg in addition!
to be honest
I like goblin hammer 600 dmg pr level 40 sec cooldown
better than
I like goblin hammer 500 dmg pr level 25 sec cooldown
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - Vomitus - 2008-09-21
According to 'unable cancel skill' bug I think that teleportation is necessary in this case. Yes, 500 distance would be fine, maybe even 300-400. That would be enough. Because if you have even slight speed disadvantage against your enemy you have no chances to hit with hammer - rarely someone comes so close. And if you want to hit - you have to move. And even one creep(yours or enemy's) on your way to an enemy will cause enemy to escape successfully.
I'd like to mention that any other tank is able to hit with his skill without the need to come close. I mean SO close. And if you position goblin tank as pure melee fighter then... I think it has hp/speed not enough for that.
_edit
It was said here that gobbie is more highly dependent on items than any other tanks is(with what I do fully agree). And just think what does it mean: that this tank real price is more than stated 6500g. And difference is at least 1500(the cost of non-graded speed boost) or more if you think about tele or hull.
Re: [8.53]Goblin Tank too weak? - k-bones - 2008-09-21
500 range teleport is almost the range of spell activation. 600+100/lvl?