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2013-07-10, 17:53:18
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-10, 17:54:59 by gozo1985.)
Heya,
Just a questions/suggestions to some who are interested in the Defuser item.
Does the Defuser work fine for Mines?
Yes but...
I like how it works but not the feedback i get. Just crazy "!" popups. and i do not even know what they are for (is there something? or not? where exactly?).
I guess the feedback of how many mines you currently exploded (if possible) would be great. In a big minefield its confusing enough how it is right now. ^^
Does the Defuser work for Exploders?
No. Fact is that a good Tinker exploder has enough porter range and a well timing you will never get him without a porter. A teleport breaker is 1000 times better. it catched not only the exploder also other teleporters. its much cheaper. ok sometimes you need more then 1 breaker becouse it gets destroyed by exploder, duration or becouse its not placed well. but the defuser is a waste of money on a exploder game when there are no other mines which are a big threat.
@Mappers:
Do you think about a change in the future? Some suggestions needed from community side? I think it would be great to have at least a chance getting the exploder defused. but not too easy so hes completely out of game.
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I'm always open for suggestions, they'll just have to be good ;)
The "!" you see mark nearby mines (or in the case of the Defuse Pack also Detectors and Teleport Breakers). Because I didn't want to make it too easy, they are displayed in a random area around each mine or ward. So, each "!" does correspond to a real invisible unit that can be destroyed by the Defuser.
I thought that it would be pretty clear how many mines you got, just going by the explosions ... What kind of feedback are you thinking of? I guess more floating texts are not really helping ... ;)
About the Defuser / Exploder situation ... yeah, it's not optimal, I know. The latest beta has two changes concerning that situation, that are pretty substantial.
One of them is a fix of a rather stupid bug - if you managed to defuse the Explosives, the Explosion actually happened around the Defuser, instead of the Exploder .... ^^"
The other one enables you to stop the countdown by stunning the Exploder. This means, that some tanks now have the ability to stop the Explosives just with their normal skills. This change also affects Teleport Breakers, since they also stop the Explosion, which happened regardless until now.
So, the advantage of the Defuser would be, that you can instantly kill the Exploder (in most cases at least) and maybe his allies around him and get the credit for it, while just stunning might not be enough to kill the Exploder.
As mentioned, the Defuse Pack also works on Detectors and Teleport Breakers, so you have another use there, which may or may not be useful to some.
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Defusing the exploder should be just a bonus anyway. The item's main purpose is not to counter explosives, but rather mines.
The new defuse pack will be pretty important for map control too - getting rid of those breakers can be game deciding.
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Mine Defuser is such a useful item now... can defuse mines and now everything based on timed life too + Radar in case to destroy smoke. Not to mention that mines and explosives are too weak as starting equipment and too weak in end game. 
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2013-07-10, 21:09:15
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-10, 21:10:59 by gozo1985.)
Exodus a suggestion for the feedback would like "3 mines left" in the area instead of just random 3 "!". its more clear then and will help ppl just to know how many mines there are without knowing the damage or the spot where they are.
and ofcourse i have a suggestion for the defuser of the explosions. instead of casting it on the enemy you can cast it on yourself/team in a small AoE to prevent explosion damage for like a second - it still needs the right timing and you can protect your team or yourself. its not a 100% chance of escaping becouse the exploder can decide to jump somewhere else but its not a useless feature anymore 
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2013-07-10, 22:34:24
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-10, 22:35:33 by Prog.)
I do not often argue with reality in video games, but a defuser that can protect people from explosions does seem like a far stretch to me.
Also I think it would be too easy to use as a counter to explosives.
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from the "realistic" point of view whats the far stretch if you defuse a exploding thing which is near you when you active a "defuser" ? too easy... hmm dont think so.. you have a cooldown, a small aoe or just a single target it depends. the exploder should use his enemy more wisely instead of just porting in for a kill or multi.
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I don't see how the exploder could use it more 'wisely'. There is no possible counterplay to using such a defuser on oneself. An exploder can dodge or destroy breaker, he can try to stay out of stunrange and time his explosives well to not get deactivated when he ports. However, what should he be able to do against someone who is just invulnerable to explosives? The only thing I can imagine is hope for the opponent to misplay or have a lagspike.
For the realism thing (which is, I concede, not a strong argument): You would not defuse, the explosives would still explode, you just would not get damage. Also more general: That's not what a 'defuser' does, respecting the name. It's not a shield.
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Apart from the realism thing, my concern with such a change in that way would be, that it's on one a totally different way of using the item compared to its primary use and it would also be pretty hard to tell people ingame how to use the Defuser in a way, that protects them from Explosives. Since it differs so much, it would not be intuitive.
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2013-07-11, 02:10:02
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-11, 02:11:17 by UnifiedDoom.)
Personally I think the defuser/mine/explosives situation is just case of underused items with underused counters. Inventory space is really limited, so I find I usually simply don't have enough room to make use of these sorts of items. The best solution, in my opinion would be to improve them both.
I think it would be good to make mines usable by techmechs. This would solve the limitted inventory space problem, and also leave vigilant players with the ability to mine up their cps and other critical areas while at the same time continuing to manage their tank elsewhere.
I also think mine defusal pack (not remote fuse), should be changed to a kind of "defusal pulse" something like: "upon activation defuses all mines and explosives within a 1000 range of the tank." It would make it easier to use and give an incentive to get the defusal pack instead of just remote fuse.
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2013-07-11, 09:59:44
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-11, 10:00:17 by 091846.)
1k range are you joking , for balancing purpose start at 500 range 1k is really too much , if you are the one to play mines you get a cluster of it at a area
you would dont want your opp to have 1k range that will kill your mines on accident
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2013-07-11, 11:39:20
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-11, 11:50:26 by gozo1985.)
Exodus, what about using the AoE of the defuser but not casting it on enemy or yourself but on ground (same mechanic as for mines) to make a -visible- defuser area? as there are two different ways you can script it something like: [if theres no mine exploded or in the AoE of the item cast the defuser area]. is this possible? for the animation/realism "which is, I concede, not a strong argument - Prog" you can take some kind of circle with small mechs inside ^^
edit: to make it clear i mean: only inside the area the counter is aborted. if the exploder explodes outside of this area the radius can still damage units inside it. duration, cd, radius of the defuser area is balancing stuff and this is your part 
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(2013-07-11, 02:10:02)UnifiedDoom Wrote: I also think mine defusal pack (not remote fuse), should be changed to a kind of "defusal pulse" something like: "upon activation defuses all mines and explosives within a 1000 range of the tank." It would make it easier to use and give an incentive to get the defusal pack instead of just remote fuse.
That is just way too powerful, even with smaller range. I agree with 091846, that it would ruin the life of mine users.
(2013-07-11, 11:39:20)gozo1985 Wrote: Exodus, what about using the AoE of the defuser but not casting it on enemy or yourself but on ground (same mechanic as for mines) to make a -visible- defuser area? as there are two different ways you can script it something like: [if theres no mine exploded or in the AoE of the item cast the defuser area]. is this possible? for the animation/realism "which is, I concede, not a strong argument - Prog" you can take some kind of circle with small mechs inside ^^
edit: to make it clear i mean: only inside the area the counter is aborted. if the exploder explodes outside of this area the radius can still damage units inside it. duration, cd, radius of the defuser area is balancing stuff and this is your part
This is way better than the previous suggestion, because it allows some counterplay. If the area is small the exploder can teleport right next to it and still gets the damage done.
Nevertheless Exodus' point still stands. It deviates from the intuitive use of the defuse as a tool that instantly explodes mines at an area.
Overall I think we should wait a bit to see how the current changes to interactions with explosives (with stuns) and the defuser (with breaker/detector) plays out. Those are still in beta and we cannot say how much use they will see in the future.
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2013-07-11, 13:45:14
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-11, 13:45:21 by Exodus.)
(2013-07-11, 13:17:13)Prog Wrote: Overall I think we should wait a bit to see how the current changes to interactions with explosives (with stuns) and the defuser (with breaker/detector) plays out. Those are still in beta and we cannot say how much use they will see in the future.
Actually, the Defuser is already able to destroy wards. Pay more attention! ;)
@UnifiedDoom: Although I agree with the others, that a destruction of all mines in an 1k aoe is way overpowered, I don't think that such a sweep-mechanic is a bad idea. But if you reduce the aoe to a reasonable value (low), it won't be viable anymore (less so than now), so you'd want to cast this sweep at a target area with a certain cast range. This essentially leads me again to the way it is currently implemented ;) One thing I could change however, would be an yet again increased aoe for the Defuse Pack.
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2013-07-11, 13:49:08
(This post was last modified: 2013-07-11, 13:49:45 by Prog.)
(2013-07-11, 13:45:14)Exodus Wrote: (2013-07-11, 13:17:13)Prog Wrote: Overall I think we should wait a bit to see how the current changes to interactions with explosives (with stuns) and the defuser (with breaker/detector) plays out. Those are still in beta and we cannot say how much use they will see in the future.
Actually, the Defuser is already able to destroy wards. Pay more attention!
d'oh. You are obviously right. Getting confused with too many beta versions 
Still that change is not tested enough in my opinion.
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my idea to improve yours the area of 300 is ok then you can upgrade it to 500 aoe , then 700 for that item , if you want 1k = by the time you upgrade to 0.7k miners have optian to keep mining or change a new plan , i think 300 to 500 is enough , 700 aoe , i think need to combine with instant repair it is whn you use it , it can scan and heal at the same time
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