Catapult should be able to target air with artillery.

[DerSatan]

i cant believe that im bored enough to respond to such stupid posts as you wrote scron2. but well, seems like its the case. so what to say?

first of all, i think youre right. its not realistic that a flying rock cant hit a moving helicopter at all. who didnt try that out before? so yea, we all know that works. thing is, its not that easy. anyone with a halfway working brain will know some basic facts about flying rocks hitting moving helicopters:

1) the ground-to-air thingy

the reason why the artillery shot got an AoE damage is that the rock hits the ground, probably bursting into pieces, obliterating stuff in its environment and so on. now theres a problem: only complete douchebags would think a rock falling to the ground would have enough impact to affect an object flying indefinitely high above that impact ground. so, while the rock is still in the air, it could hit. but why the fuck should it hit an aircraft while falling onto the ground????

2) the dimension thingy

helicopters fly. while flying rocks also fly, its a matter of where exactly to fly. the skills used in bt, and warcraft 3 in general only use two dimensions, length and width. now, how would a ballistic fired projectile hit an object flying at a cretain HEIGHT?? alright, we all know that. if it ever even reaches the height of the flying object, there are 1 or 2 points where they possibly could collide, easy. but even total morons know that to make a collision happen, all three dimensions need to fit perfectly.

3) the combine-these-two-if-you-can thingy

you need to hit that aircraft matching all 3 dimensions without an AoE. we COULD do that realistically. you just needed to hit the sole pixel (x,y,z) where the aircraft is flying without any information about the height, dealing with your internet delay, aiming at a moving object. just fuckin retards wouldnt give THAT a shot, would they?



oh yea, i know, the rock can explode any time, you mentioned that. but seriously, at least try to think about stuff before writing it down. of course it CAN explode. it CAN also implode, releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers, charging for aircrafts. and YES, we all know its codeable, stop beeing that stupid.

and for the aircraft is getting speed for free: nothing is for free dude. you should know about it since your uncle offered that free candy. IT DOES COST SKILL POINTS DUDE. EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT????? IF YOU ARGUE THAT WAY, EVERY ABILITY IN BT IS FOR FREE. FREE STUNS, FREE DAMAGE, FREE DUMBNESS, FREE EVERYTHING. stop beeing that moronic please.


after all, youre just spamming this topic. everything is said, and spam wouldnt help in this highly serious discussion, so dont respond in this thread anymore, k thx.

[Althend]

releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers

I want this.

[IlPalazzo]

releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers

I want this.

Oh hell yes... This idea has to be the best thing to come out of this thread! ... Seconded

[scron2]

There is no way that the idea of catapult shot hitting air will be more unbalanced than hunter's smoke being able to hit air. There is no comparison sorry pal, you're wrong.

I refuse to argue with people who say that it is impossible for a rock to stun 2 things at once, even if one thing is in the air. We are in a game where you can teleport places and buy items to teleport. In reality neither of these things exist so please stop talking about unimportant topics like how things like that are "realistic". Air units can fly over mines, yet they still explode. Seriously we aren't talking about anything important if you have lowered yourselves to the idea of closed-mindedness. You guys list things like "they are working on new stuff" and then you turn around and saying you don't want any new changes. Make up your minds. With the logic you use here we'd only be spending time talking about whether or not things in a video game are "REALISTIC"... I HAVE NEWS FOR YOU: IT'S A VIDEO GAME.

The change can be made and if it really is broken, then they can change it back just like demon tanks decrepify. I don't think it will be broken at all. The scout tank is about on the same level as the heli as is the light tank. 2 of these tanks can be hit by artillery and 1 tank, the heli moves unobstructed and faster. It's harder to hit a faster unit and the heli has these advantages and more over the ground tanks so in reality the suggestion is well within the balance of the game.

Is there any reason not to test this suggestion? Even for 1 version? I'd like to hear some reasons, surely we have had worse disasters in balance than a trivial ability that takes skill to aim, and luck to hit.

For someone on the DevTeam, you sure seem to be rather ignorant in how you present your argument. This isn't a "reality" issue.. it's purely a balance issue. Clearly you don't have a clue what you're talking about with the targetting either. The Titan manages to do it, it can be done. Your argument is weak. Sure skills require skill points, but an artillery shot is a slow animation that can miss and has a 40 second cooldown. How many times do you expect that to hit? A demo early game will hardly even hit the ground tanks if they know they will be targetted. Say first 25 mins of the game, well thats about 25 shots. Many of those won't even be combo-able. So really what are we talking about? maybe 12 kills max? I mean opportunities don't roll around exactly every 40 seconds, and tanks don't magically get low HP exactly when you need to get a "free kill" so really you have NO CLUE what you mean by balance in hitting air. It already hits 3/4 of the tanks in the game, and mines are more effective anyway. What more is there to say?

Are you going to reply with something like "we know because we tested it" OR "we don't know because we have not tested it"... because if you did test this for balance, we'd know already. You have not done so.

[eSVau]

releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers

I want this.

+1 :lol:

[khEg]

So kheg admits to posting spam and blatent argument without content or anything to back it up whatsoever. Way to go. I don't think debating this with you is worth it anymore. Please leave this topic now kheg, you are cluttering up the topic.

Are you kidding me?
1) You cant forbid me to post whenever I want!
2) The argument that "this would be hard to code" didnt even came from me .. i just picked it up to enforce my arguments.
3) I know enough of coding that i can certainly say that this would take its time.
4) Last but not least I want you to know: Noone is really serious with you anymore anyway. So keep on going pls we think its very funny. :lol:

best regards
khEg

P.S:

releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers

I want this.

+1 :lol:

Could be one of the skills of the new tank
+1 ^^

[Saiyuki]

DerSatan already mentioned the problems, resulting by both "air crash" and/or "ground splash". you would need an animated model, which would need to at least 10 times per second ( realistically: way often, because the shot is quite fast ) change its location and height ( for it to look good ) and checking each time if its new coordinates ( including height ) would match the air tank, starting at the catapult. as for the ground, you could easily check the height of the dummy model. moreover, one may need to detect if a friend or foe was hit, dealing the damage then or passing through.
in terms of triggering, it could surely be done in JASS, but could get kinda laggy ( for lower systems ). would you like to trade your current artillery shot with a custom artillery shot including laggs? is it really worth it?

i won't discuss this in here any further. keep in mind, it worked for all times, why changing a running system now? some things are intended.

[Lezowski]

In this thread:

Scron2: OMG THE BIG FLAMING BALL OF @$#! ARCS IN THE AIR SO IT CAN HIT ROFLCOPTERS IT MAKES SENSE

Scron2, one page later: NO, ITS UNREALISTIC LIKE TELEPORT THATS WHY WE MUST HAVE IT!

[IlPalazzo]

Dude, his entire argument is one giant contradiction. There's no solid reasoning behind it at all:

I’m sure they (the mappers/Devs) wouldn’t be saying those things! ==> DerSatan doesn’t know SHIT about this game!
OMG the Catapult is so weak. It needs MOAR POWER! ==> Well, it wouldn’t imbalance it - right?
Artillery Shot needs a buff so the Demo will be balanced. ==> The Artillery shot won’t do shit for the Demo – so let’s do it!
It makes sense. ==> OMG nothing else make sense either. Get out of reality asshole!
FUCK no one has reading comprehension here!!11! ==> *skips* replies

Damn I wasted too much time with this... I need my WC3 computer back.

[scron2]

DerSatan already mentioned the problems, resulting by both "air crash" and/or "ground splash". you would need an animated model, which would need to at least 10 times per second ( realistically: way often, because the shot is quite fast ) change its location and height ( for it to look good ) and checking each time if its new coordinates ( including height ) would match the air tank, starting at the catapult. as for the ground, you could easily check the height of the dummy model. moreover, one may need to detect if a friend or foe was hit, dealing the damage then or passing through.
in terms of triggering, it could surely be done in JASS, but could get kinda laggy ( for lower systems ). would you like to trade your current artillery shot with a custom artillery shot including laggs? is it really worth it?

i won't discuss this in here any further. keep in mind, it worked for all times, why changing a running system now? some things are intended.

This is unreal how you argue like it can't be done. Do you play ladder? The destroyer targets everything when it does its move, which is genrally speaking the same as the Titans move. And I'll note that on the titans stun everything gets stunned at the same time. Are you prepared to adjust that? The animation clearly does not match the stun and you don't do any coordinate checking there, otherwise it would. The point I'm making is that bullshit you just made up is a poor excuse to not implement the change.

You know it is balanced and since titans animation isn't up to your "standards" written in the quoted paragraph, it doesn't really matter now does it? Call it a stun bomb and be done with it. Targetting something in the air really isn't a problem. You're just trying to make it sound like one, but a skill that is in the game does it exactly how you don't want it to happen... so stop contradicting yourself.

[Saiyuki]

i simply thought you wanted a skill that attack an area and while the projectile hits any target, it would deal the damage then, instead of passing through. but it seems like your the one not able to discuss things properly and keep your offending words down. why should anyone seriously listen to you? >.>

well, anyways, i dont expect it to be changed. so have fun discussing things that won't be changed.

[khEg]

This is unreal how you argue like it can't be done.

I can't believe it.
Please read this whole thread and give me one single quote where some1 says it can't be done!
There is none!
We just say:

How will it make sense if you hit a Helicopter's/Other Air Tank's shadow and he becomes damaged/stunned/killed? It wouldn't make sense - it'd just look goofy. If you think it'd be fast and easy to rescript the skill so it appears correctly, then pick up JASS and write a script up for them.

It is a good suggestion if some1 is very bored

The Mappers only have so much time to add things to the map... They're planning to push out a new league and a new tank within the next couple versions.

we COULD do that realistically. you just needed to hit the sole pixel (x,y,z) where the aircraft is flying without any information about the height, dealing with your internet delay, aiming at a moving object. just fuckin retards wouldnt give THAT a shot, would they?

oh yea, i know, the rock can explode any time, you mentioned that. but seriously, at least try to think about stuff before writing it down. of course it CAN explode. it CAN also implode, releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers, charging for aircrafts. and YES, we all know its codeable

etc...



best regards
khEg

P.S. it would help every1 a lot if you would just grow up a little, at least in behaviour. Thx!

[scron2]

i simply thought you wanted a skill that attack an area and while the projectile hits any target, it would deal the damage then, instead of passing through. but it seems like your the one not able to discuss things properly and keep your offending words down. why should anyone seriously listen to you? >.>

well, anyways, i dont expect it to be changed. so have fun discussing things that won't be changed.

That's a pretty convenient thing to say since one person can create a suggestion you turn around and say something like "Why should we listen to you?"

You speak for yourself here. Once again your elitism comes into play, bad language etc. I've been harassed by people who said it couldn't be done and now you say it isn't doable at all. And the final insult is "It likely won't be changed" really. Let this be evidence of how bad the process of editing the map is, a suggestion is launched and mocked by nearly everyone here... then people say it can't be done for reasons that have nothing to do with balance but rather its implementation.

It's like saying "IF WE CAN'T AGREE ON A WAY FOR IT TO WORK, IT JUST CAN'T POSSIBLY WORK" and the catch is you will always find some stupid reason to disagree with it when clearly I'm asking for a change that is more or less similar to another ability in the game in terms of targetting. Why did you even come here to discuss this if you have nothing constructive or reasonable to say? All you are confirming is how unprofessional the individuals are that "make decisions" about this map really are. You'd be better off just saying nothing.

Why should anyone listen to YOU? You clearly have no good points to reject this idea. The process is simple: Is the suggestion balanced? Answer:Yes. Can it be implemented: Answer: Yes. Reasons to not implement given so far: Claims that it doesn't make "sense"... neither does teleporting, Titans stun -- "bugged" as you call it since it stuns all things at exactly the same time regardless of "animation". So really there isn't a problem now is there?

The only problem I see here is that people like you who don't have a clue on how to argue a good point are giving "tips" to the map makers. It's a crime if someone like you are doing that. Really. Did you suggest removing HB? Undoubtedly.

[kingnounours]

Okay,
if we need to say every stupid ability that can hit ground or air but with the graphic are not suppose to do it, we will never get a usefull suggestion.

C'mon just play
kingnounours-

[khEg]

I've been harassed by people who said it couldn't be done and now you say it isn't doable at all. And the final insult is "It likely won't be changed" really. Let this be evidence of how bad the process of editing the map is, a suggestion is launched and mocked by nearly everyone here... then people say it can't be done for reasons that have nothing to do with balance but rather its implementation.

We just say:

How will it make sense if you hit a Helicopter's/Other Air Tank's shadow and he becomes damaged/stunned/killed? It wouldn't make sense - it'd just look goofy. If you think it'd be fast and easy to rescript the skill so it appears correctly, then pick up JASS and write a script up for them.

It is a good suggestion if some1 is very bored

The Mappers only have so much time to add things to the map... They're planning to push out a new league and a new tank within the next couple versions.

we COULD do that realistically. you just needed to hit the sole pixel (x,y,z) where the aircraft is flying without any information about the height, dealing with your internet delay, aiming at a moving object. just fuckin retards wouldnt give THAT a shot, would they?

oh yea, i know, the rock can explode any time, you mentioned that. but seriously, at least try to think about stuff before writing it down. of course it CAN explode. it CAN also implode, releasing a mob of pink penguins equipped with small ice lasers, charging for aircrafts. and YES, we all know its codeable

... when clearly I'm asking for a change that is more or less similar to another ability in the game in terms of targetting.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Imagine this nice situation in which youre just asking for a chance. *roflmao*
You are blaming the whole community for saying that they dont agree with you.
2nd Post:

I'm not buying this bullshit that helicopter is evenly balanced with the catapult.

FUCK people have 0 reading comprehension around here.

3rd Post

No you're just arrogant "or at least you are in my opinion".

YET MORE BULLSHIT

4th Post

Grow up kids

............. :evil:


best regards
khEg

[Lezowski]

No it wouldn't be balanced. Artillery is one of the best nukes in the game, provided you are against a ground tank. I always try to skill it unless the entire other team is full of helicopters. I'd be getting kills left and right with this thing if it could attack air. The only ground thing greatly balances it. Demolisher is a pain to go against because of mine spam and if artillery got buffed up then demolisher would probably be the most played tank. It does take skill to use, especially against turbo boosted helicopters, but 2000 range and increased damage (Over other nukes) easily makes up for it. A ground tank can't retreat against a demolisher, any good player will snipe you with a well aimed shot.

[scron2]

Kheg those ad-hominem attacks on me are not helping your case.

Ad hominems are one thing but you blatantly posted false information in an attempt to argue with me. What is more incorrect? Exactly what you did.

Elitism is exactly what is surfacing when you act like such a hypocrite. Cry more about being "insulted", it has absolutely no value in terms of the edit I'm proposing. Suppose someone else posted a similar topic? Suppose it likely gets closed. Does this mean all my insulting and the like stops the change from happening? Hmm that doesn't sound fair now does it? Let's suppose someone did that with an HB debate, all future topics get closed due to redundancy. So clearly whether I swear alot in my posts means nothing. What matters is the essence of the topic.

I see people mentioning medivac, a cheaper tank. Clearly a better tank than catapult since its ultimate allows it invulnerability. 2 medivacs are better than 2 demos hands down. People play medivac even late game with hulls. I don't see how catapult shot disrupts this balance. If anything it balances it more because of medivac's distinct advantage - ultimate.

People who are opposing this idea will try to come up with new ideas, but none of them recently have said anything in terms of the other tanks it might affect other than focusing on the helicopter as I have. There is lane switching. People do that all the time. Of all the air tanks, only the helicopter gets discussed. This is only representative of how closed-minded the posters here are. They are not interested in exploring or analyzing anything much more than what the original poster has said. They debate other thinks like semantics rather than the game and its balance.

BTW whoever said a ground tank can't retreat against a demo is making a false statement. A person who is obstructed and has 1 place to go gets hit. A helicopter is free to fly anywhere unobstructed and can go left or right at their own will and can easily evade being hit. A demo shot is not a sure thing if a person is aware of the fact they could be hit. Don't try to argue against this point because the teleporter is a bigger issue than this one skill. It's about game/map awareness (if you die it is your own fault), and the balance is fine. Go pick demo and demonstrate to us that you can hit several shots in a row with success in killing a tank, then we'll talk. Oh and bring the replay because I'll want to discuss the "helicopter" factor in that game as well. Goona do it?

and kingshonors: sure every skill isn't acceptable to be changed to hit all air. I'm not asking for this. I have outlined why this skill is a fair exception to the rule and have compared it to things that could be very unbalanced if they hit everything as well. Clearly I am not for the other 2 things, hunter's smoke and demon tank's decrepify. I'm talking about a skill that does a fraction of the damage. It's "balance factor" is rather insignificant if you compare it to many of the "only air or ground" abilities. Take for example the goblin tank. If it could hammer air without a net, that would be rather unbalanced considering that it moves faster, has more HP and typically gets a teleporter. There are real reasons why other abilities don't fit into this kind of a trivial change to the game and to mention them in the same topic is more absurd than your failure of an absurd example. Clearly you are taking me completely out of context when you claim my argument is weak. It is not and I'm very specific. I'm not asking a "for all" change on all weapons. It is one single change, one small change and you act like it is a big deal.

If anything this idea would be worth exploring for 1 version. Get feedback from the community testing it. Give it a month and see what happens. What would be the harm, you learn something?

[khEg]

Elitism is exactly what is surfacing when you act like such a hypocrite. Cry more about being "insulted", it has absolutely no value in terms of the edit I'm proposing.

You may call it crying about being insulted but in fact it is nothing like that. You know its a matter of manners. If you behave without respecting others they wont accept you as a real person to discuss with which is basicly proven in this topic. If you read this through a lot of ppl dont like your way of talking

What matters is the essence of the topic.

True, true.


Why dont we vote for that .. just open a vote thread and lets vote for arty --> air only or arty --> ground + air.
you can gather all your friends to vote.
Im already awaiting the result of that

[scron2]

A compromise then, option to switch mode on artillery shot. Hit air, or switch to hit ground. Is that unreasonable?

[Saiyuki]

i thought we talked about a skill? how do you want to realise a skill, which can be changed the way you described it?