Catapult should be able to target air with artillery.

[scron2]

To begin this argument (which it will end up being) why is it that a flying rock can't hit a flying object?

The helicopter gets 900hp.
The demolisher gets 2000hp.

A hull makes up for the difference.
Costs 1900 for demo
Cost 1000 for helicopter + 1250 for hull. = about the same.

The helicopter gets 2 stuns on ground.
The demo gets one nuke on air and one passive skill that can potentially be used against itself.
Mines also quite easily countered with wards.

So what is the problem exactly? The point I'm making here is that the demo is a great ground vs ground tank and we all see why the helicopter is being used so much. The helicopter also gets a free movespeed boost... which is complete bullshit. It automatically saves them gold for having to buy speedpacks.

Nets don't quite counter air (assuming you want to use your catapult skill) because they cost alot for early game. It isn't worth getting them while you are demolisher at all.

And finally the helicopter takes no damage from poison cloud, unless netted of course.... a whole other topic but nevertheless a distinct advantage over the catapult.

SOOOO basically we are encountering a problem here bacause if we get 2 demos in mid lane say vs 2 helicopters the 2 helis will always win. Mines often take at least 2-3 to kill any single tank. Sure the demo has a pretty sweet shockwave nuke, but it isn't a stun which is what it really needs to gain any sort of advantage against the helicopter because of the helis speed advantage, unless you want to spend that gold on a speedpack just so you can get outgunned by that little fucker that can stun you twice and chase you down. That's bullshit.

I'll end this topic with a statement from the chat ~ Saying this:
It was made that way so it should stay the same
----is the same as saying----
The game was made unbalanced so it should stay the same [unbalanced]

Just because the artillery shot didn't hit air before doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to sometime. Hell after all what do you call stuff that hits planes? Artillery. Sure you may call it anti-aircraft artillery but it's all the same shit like the German 88 if you want to get all technical n shit.

[khEg]

actually what youre saying is ill-conceived

first of all the catapult hits the ground and deals the damage, why should that deal damage to air units?
second would be that the demolisher skills are pretty strong and when you reach lvl 7 with it almost none beginner ground tank can stand a cata + wave combo. (without a hull)
therefor the helicopter for sure has an advantage. BUT dont forget every tank needs to have some advantage and some weakness.
if it wouldnt be that way every1 would play the same tank which would be the one with no weakness and only advantages. this would be boring and basically noone would play anyways.
the helicopter has a great weakness in its hitpoints which makes it totally balanced vs a demo.

what im trying to say is: if you would improve the demolisher noone would dare playing something else as it would be the imba start tank.
at the moment it is pretty balanced.

best regards
khEg

[Lezowski]

It won't even matter because you won't be able to hit the helicopters anyway. They're too small, artillery has a small AOE. They move around too much, and are some of the fastest tanks. I think the prices for helicopter and light tank should be swapped. Then the helicopter has 800 hp (not counting the hp loss for flying tanks) in exchange for a very minimal increase in weapon variety. It would make helicopters require more skill to be played unless you like dying a lot.

[scron2]

The helicopter has fast movement. This guy here talks like aiming an artillery shot is as sure as missle + ground attack (stun) with the helicopter. There is no fucking comparison and plus the helicopter moves much faster. So if a helicopter can outrun the catapult, what sense does it make to make a cheaper tank that much better? The range of nets is not fair to the catapult user as it the price.

For this and more reasons the catapult is completely outmatched by several of the other tanks including thunder because it has a directed stun that can never miss and sky tank just because sky tank is so fast in comparison. I'm not saying make catapult "hunter" imba, I'm just saying give it a fair chance late game.

I'm not buying this bullshit that helicopter is evenly balanced with the catapult. They are clearly not balanced whatsoever as early game tanks. The helicopter outguns it every time because it saves 1500 in speed up purchases, it can buy a cheap hull and still be competitive, and it can afford more weapons to load its slots with because it doesn't have to spend on speed and speed equates to more farmability/movement and gankability on other ground tanks.

I find it amusing that someone has to pose the argument I listed in my first post as if it were in any form fucking valid. It is not valid to say "it hits ground so keep it the same" -- same as saying "the game isn't balanced so keep it the same". Learn to read. The "cata-wave" combo isnt' always gauranteed to land.

FUCK people have 0 reading comprehension around here.

[DerSatan]

While i could explain why most of your points are invalid (or at least why they are in my opinion), i will not because your language is inappropriate and aggressive. What about learning to write and post at a forum instead of cursing and telling people to learn to read?

This isn't the first time i recognize that with you. I don't know if we have an active moderator at this board, normally we don't even need one. But you're calling for one it seems.

If you edit your post into a proper discussion format, i will edit mine to a proper response.

[SCorpA1]

normally artillery is a ground - ground weapon, so its not thought to hit air objects. in reality you could have a lucky hit with artilletry vs air but its not ment to do so, so i think its stupid

[newbcake3]

To begin this argument (which it will end up being) why is it that a flying rock can't hit a flying object?

The helicopter gets 900hp.
The demolisher gets 2000hp.

A hull makes up for the difference.
Costs 1900 for demo
Cost 1000 for helicopter + 1250 for hull. = about the same.

The helicopter gets 2 stuns on ground.
The demo gets one nuke on air and one passive skill that can potentially be used against itself.
Mines also quite easily countered with wards.

So what is the problem exactly? The point I'm making here is that the demo is a great ground vs ground tank and we all see why the helicopter is being used so much. The helicopter also gets a free movespeed boost... which is complete bullshit. It automatically saves them gold for having to buy speedpacks.

Nets don't quite counter air (assuming you want to use your catapult skill) because they cost alot for early game. It isn't worth getting them while you are demolisher at all.

And finally the helicopter takes no damage from poison cloud, unless netted of course.... a whole other topic but nevertheless a distinct advantage over the catapult.

SOOOO basically we are encountering a problem here bacause if we get 2 demos in mid lane say vs 2 helicopters the 2 helis will always win. Mines often take at least 2-3 to kill any single tank. Sure the demo has a pretty sweet shockwave nuke, but it isn't a stun which is what it really needs to gain any sort of advantage against the helicopter because of the helis speed advantage, unless you want to spend that gold on a speedpack just so you can get outgunned by that little fucker that can stun you twice and chase you down. That's bullshit.

I'll end this topic with a statement from the chat ~ Saying this:
It was made that way so it should stay the same
----is the same as saying----
The game was made unbalanced so it should stay the same [unbalanced]

Just because the artillery shot didn't hit air before doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to sometime. Hell after all what do you call stuff that hits planes? Artillery. Sure you may call it anti-aircraft artillery but it's all the same shit like the German 88 if you want to get all technical n shit.

why are you putting points in artillery shot in a lane versus helicopters? moron

instead of whining because your one dimensional gameplay doesnt favor the demolisher why dont you try getting land mines + shockwave or just level your tank cannon. 90% of the helicopters level their stun missile and will have less dps to farm. the only reason helicopters are so successful is because they take advantage of poor players like yourself. do you even know how expensive it is to detect + detonate land mines? this is the most poorly constructed argument ive ever seen

i suspect youre nothing but a feeder bitch anyways given your low level problem solving skills and third grade communication
try not being a suck-ass cry-baby pussy and just pick the helicopter if you think its so imba

[khEg]

To begin this argument (which it will end up being) why is it that a flying rock can't hit a flying object?

The helicopter gets 900hp.
The demolisher gets 2000hp.

A hull makes up for the difference.
Costs 1900 for demo
Cost 1000 for helicopter + 1250 for hull. = about the same.

The helicopter gets 2 stuns on ground.
The demo gets one nuke on air and one passive skill that can potentially be used against itself.
Mines also quite easily countered with wards.

So what is the problem exactly? The point I'm making here is that the demo is a great ground vs ground tank and we all see why the helicopter is being used so much. The helicopter also gets a free movespeed boost... which is complete bullshit. It automatically saves them gold for having to buy speedpacks.

Nets don't quite counter air (assuming you want to use your catapult skill) because they cost alot for early game. It isn't worth getting them while you are demolisher at all.

And finally the helicopter takes no damage from poison cloud, unless netted of course.... a whole other topic but nevertheless a distinct advantage over the catapult.

SOOOO basically we are encountering a problem here bacause if we get 2 demos in mid lane say vs 2 helicopters the 2 helis will always win. Mines often take at least 2-3 to kill any single tank. Sure the demo has a pretty sweet shockwave nuke, but it isn't a stun which is what it really needs to gain any sort of advantage against the helicopter because of the helis speed advantage, unless you want to spend that gold on a speedpack just so you can get outgunned by that little fucker that can stun you twice and chase you down. That's bullshit.

I'll end this topic with a statement from the chat ~ Saying this:
It was made that way so it should stay the same
----is the same as saying----
The game was made unbalanced so it should stay the same [unbalanced]

Just because the artillery shot didn't hit air before doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to sometime. Hell after all what do you call stuff that hits planes? Artillery. Sure you may call it anti-aircraft artillery but it's all the same shit like the German 88 if you want to get all technical n shit.

why are you putting points in artillery shot in a lane versus helicopters? moron

instead of whining because your one dimensional gameplay doesnt favor the demolisher why dont you try getting land mines + shockwave or just level your tank cannon. 90% of the helicopters level their stun missile and will have less dps to farm. the only reason helicopters are so successful is because they take advantage of poor players like yourself. do you even know how expensive it is to detect + detonate land mines? this is the most poorly constructed argument ive ever seen

i suspect youre nothing but a feeder bitch anyways given your low level problem solving skills and third grade communication
try not being a suck-ass cry-baby pussy and just pick the helicopter if you think its so imba

sry but ... lmao :lol:
(for the germans: so kann mans auch ausdrücken)

[scron2]

While i could explain why most of your points are invalid (or at least why they are in my opinion), i will not because your language is inappropriate and aggressive. What about learning to write and post at a forum instead of cursing and telling people to learn to read?

This isn't the first time i recognize that with you. I don't know if we have an active moderator at this board, normally we don't even need one. But you're calling for one it seems.

If you edit your post into a proper discussion format, i will edit mine to a proper response.

No you're just arrogant "or at least you are in my opinion".

I have news for you. I was not using "FUCK" as an insult. Most instances of it are as an adjective. If you need an example here is one:

If you think that using the word fuck as an adjective is wrong then you are a moron and you need to learn that I wasn't insulting anyone but you right now.

Nobody yet has proven to me that the catapult is in any way a better tank than the helicopter right now. Not one single argument shows that mines+shockwave is actually better than a double stun and basically equivalent HP. Detecting mines isn't a problem... you just don't fly over them, or you run over them before they can stack them. There is little to nothing a mine layer can do against a player that uses air because air can fly where you can't lay mines.

YET MORE BULLSHIT:

normally artillery is a ground - ground weapon, so its not thought to hit air objects. in reality you could have a lucky hit with artilletry vs air but its not ment to do so, so i think its stupid

my response of how absurd your argument is:
THE GAME IS NOT BALANCED, SO IT IS NOT THOUGHT TO BE BALANCED. IN REALITY YOU COULD HAVE A LUCKY CHANCE OF A BALANCED GAME BUT ITS NOT MEANT DO BE LIKE THAT, SO I THINK ITS STUPID.
The point is that being able to hit air with a non-targeted "best guess" is in no way unbalanced because the helicopter moves faster than ground tanks to begin with. And if you are playing helicopter late-game then you should reconsider playing it if you get nuked to shit, as is the case with any other tank. You got 2 stuns and you're telling me there's a problem against a dam catapult? Get real.

-----
as for the guy who said "change my strat" and stop whining... the catapult's ability to hit air would be less useful then using mines. So what is the big deal. Invis detection as you mention is not worth buying in your argument so what exactly makes a catapult shot hitting air so unbalanced? Is it only the gyrocopter that would die more? Remember we're talking about a faster, more mobile tank. Like you said if you get all mana skills, you don't outfarm the gyro so where are you going with this argument? Or are you just afraid of the fact that people picking helicopter might die a few more times when a catapult user doesn't go mines... because we all know how easy they are to dodge and not die from.

What this comes down to is how I have won this argument. Mines are clearly better than artillery shot (assuming it could hit air) because it is hard to hit a faster-moving tank that can fly anywhere unobstructed. Clearly mines are not unbalanced since I searched this forum for posts saying exactly that, and none did. Outfarming a gyrocopter requires getting your tank cannon, so if you don't then you don't outfarm the gyro which ends up in a "balance" towards the more mobile helicopter. But if a person choses no mines but cannon they lose the use of mines, which clearly are the better strategy over a catapult shot hitting an air target. So really, what I have proposed is clearly within balance and acceptable. And your responses only clarify the fact that it is balanced because none of you said it would be unbalanced to begin with (I don't see any reasable arguments other than the absurdity that I complained about). Thanks for helping this suggestion move forward and I think we can all see how this makes perfect sense to implement now.

[DerSatan]

What this comes down to is how I have won this argument.

Wrong. What you have won is that i and other guys i know of wont discuss with you, because you are unable to. Not beeing able to discuss is not equal to win a discussion, sorry.

[newbcake3]

i challenge scrub2 to a 1v1 match where he can get a helicopter and i shall get a demolisher

[DerSatan]

replay please

[khEg]

i challenge scrub2 to a 1v1 match where he can get a helicopter and i shall get a demolisher

goddamn while reading his long answer this was my idea :lol:
well if he has lost the one vs you pls pm me ... i want 1v1 too, same conditions 8)

best regards
khEg

[newbcake3]

scrub2 isnt even replying, id love for him to come to azeroth and whisper newbcake3, i doubt it will happen. hes just another feeder bitch whining because he gets caught in perpetual cycles of feeding every game, and so he logs on to do nothing but be an indignant moron.

i just read his last post for the first time, its not even coherent

[scron2]

This is amusing. I post an argument and then what happens? Noone has a counter argument other than let's go get people warned for using bad language. Grow up kids, if you can't debate with someone who isn't insulting someone with the F-word then you need to understand that I wasn't insulting anyone. Look at all this spam flaming my points. They address NOTHING. They have no substance so wtf?

This community is so elitist that once someone says they like HB, they get warned for posting topics. People blatantly pose arguments like "we can't debate with you since you use bad language" because they can't argue against my points but rather despise me for liking HB so they are motivated to just kick me off the board here. Pathetic.

Right now I see no reason for the catapult NOT to hit air units. Not one single counter-argument.

I'll tell you what it takes to be able to "debate this" to those who claim they can not. What you do is list your reasons for denying the suggestion. If you have none, you don't list any and continue as you have been. Therefore there is no argument and we all agree that I'm right, unless of course you choose to type something here that lists WHY NOT.

[Saiyuki]

mines, jet wave, tank cannon and burning oil. these can all hit air ( mines passive ). keep in mind, artillery got a range of 2000, which is more than the common skill range and even more than any weapon. if you wanted artillery to hit air units, too, then the damage would be needed to nerfed down by about 15% to 25% or the range by about 700 for it to be more balanced.

for other reasons, why this won't be changed ( at least atm ), just check the previous posts.

[Althend]

As a bastard who has always high ratio in this game, (yeah i am so arrogant), i would say that demo is enough powerful. Having only skill unable to touch ground is a penality that doesn't stop people using it. The main advantage of demo is his hp. During 5 first minute it is really hard to die with that much hp. The second point to focus is that the way to play demo is different, begining is more about farming creep. (it is better :p)

Basically, you have basic magic of bow. With bow, you cant say you creep slower than heli. With basic, If we put one demo vs one heli, at level 1. Demo win for sure.

And really, the speed is NOT the best skill of the heli. Personnaly I never take it.

[IlPalazzo]

This is amusing. I post an argument and then what happens? Noone has a counter argument other than let's go get people warned for using bad language. Grow up kids, if you can't debate with someone who isn't insulting someone with the F-word then you need to understand that I wasn't insulting anyone. Look at all this spam flaming my points. They address NOTHING. They have no substance so wtf?

If you want respect you need to give it. Saying "FUCK people have 0 reading comprehension," "YET MORE BULLSHIT," "I won this argument," and mocking another person’s point of view is both crude and disrespectful. Having some common courtesy isn’t an elitist rule exclusive to this forum, it’s expected everywhere… Go ahead, say it's THEIR problem and THEY need to grow up, but don't be surprised if people simply ignore what you have to say.

This community is so elitist that once someone says they like HB, they get warned for posting topics. People blatantly pose arguments like "we can't debate with you since you use bad language" because they can't argue against my points but rather despise me for liking HB so they are motivated to just kick me off the board here. Pathetic.

I’m disappointed HB got removed before any suitable alternative was made, but I’ve never had a problem making that clear around here. If I read correctly, the people you are referring who got warned were done so other reasons (necroing old topics, flaming, etc.) – not posting their opinion on the removal of HB.



As to your argument, I would have to disagree with you here, as you have some problems here:

- Their HP is the same:
2000 HP Demolisher =/= 1900 HP Iron Hulled Helicopter (900 + 1000)
The Demolisher still has a 100 HP advantage (+ 11/HP per level).

- Their cost is the same:
1000 Gold Helicopter + 1250 Gold Iron Hull =/= 1900 Gold Demolisher
The difference is 350 Gold. Try not to use fuzzy math to make a valid argument, because these subtle differences DO matter when considering game balance.

- “The Helicopter gets a free Speed Pack”
Not true, they have to invest skill points, meaning they are trading away damage potential from their 3 active abilities (~540 – 660 Burst Damage for three points of speed) and/or their passive tank cannon (~180 DPS for three points of speed).

- “The Demolisher should be viable in the late-game.”
The Demolisher is a crappy late-game tank, but so are a lot of tanks. That’s intended, as most early tanks are meant to be transitioned out of in the mid-game. Only a couple early-game tanks are somewhat viable in the late-game. The Helicopter is not one of them, as tank bounty increases to the point where nets DO become a cost effective counter to its mobility.

- “The Demolisher will get double-stunned, chased, and get killed every time.” // “…we all know how easy they [mines] are to dodge and not die from.”
Just because you know where mines are, doesn’t mean they won’t be an inconvenience. The Demolisher can restrict the Helicopter’s mobility with mines, as he must still avoid them. It’s for this reason it’s more difficult for a helicopter to chase, double-stun, and kill a demolisher as you claim it is.

- “Mines are clearly better than artillery shot (assuming it could hit air) because it is hard to hit a faster-moving tank that can fly anywhere unobstructed.”
You’re undercutting your own argument… In your first post you insinuate that the Demolisher is inferior to the Helicopter and that Artillery Shot would balance this gap. Yet now you concede that using mines would be a suitable and better alternative against air. So why bother making this change when, as you agree, this skill against air is mere chance and guesswork?

[scron2]

1) I contradict myself to to pose a situation in which you have not confirmed whether or not mines really are better than catapult shot.
--If you are going to debate this anymore you have to answer that.
I'll remark that it takes skill to hit moving targets with such a small aoe. Still I see no argument on what exactly makes hitting an air target unbalanced.
THE WHOLE DEBATE IS HERE^ BUT EVERYONE SEEMS TO LIKE TO DANCE AROUND IT AND AVOID DIRECTLY SAYING HOW HITTING AIR WITH CATAPULT WOULD RUIN THE GAME. IT WOULD NOT. NOT ONE INSTANCE OF "MATH" WHY? BECAUSE TANKS LIKE "SCOUT" ARE IN THE SAME BOAT WHEN THERE ARE NO MINES. THERE REALLY IS NO REASON FOR IT NOT TO BE ABLE TO HIT AIR BECAUSE AIR UNITS ARE HARDER TO HIT ANYWAY.

In 3k the helicopter doesn't have to get the hull early on, it may even get a steel hull instead, which has more value. The helicopter can afford better weapons. The demo is limited to 2 weapons, both of which have shit damage.

If you are talking about the demolisher's ult like it is useful, think again the cast range is 750, and if you're slower you'd have to get a speedpack or TP before you could use it against an air tank. This isn't going to gaurantee you live when attempting using it either since it is damage over time. PLUS you have to be level 10... where everyone should have upgraded by now and thunder tank is still better.

"The demolisher should be viable late game"
While I might have said something like this, you still don't say how adding air stun affects anything at all. If anything it does not.

And finally all a person has to say is something arbitrary like "I LIKE HB" and they get disrespected. It has nothing at all to do with language use. It's an elitist community. Not everyone is bad like that but you get my point. You can't use bad language as an excuse to insult me with your false commentary.

[qweqqweq]

i just think it's funny that mines hit air but a flying rock doesn't