Catapult should be able to target air with artillery.

[Saiyuki]

i just think it's funny that mines hit air but a flying rock doesn't

well... the whole topic ( including most of the comments ) just sounds like this comment...

[khEg]

THE WHOLE DEBATE IS HERE^ BUT EVERYONE SEEMS TO LIKE TO DANCE AROUND IT AND AVOID DIRECTLY SAYING HOW HITTING AIR WITH CATAPULT WOULD RUIN THE GAME. IT WOULD NOT. NOT ONE INSTANCE OF "MATH" WHY?

Simple: If you would have that situation a skilled player with some practice could have 850 skill damage to any tank + stun right after game start.
This isnt just theory. Getting a bow with demolisher played in middle you go lvl 4 after 5 mins. If done some kills up to that point even lvl 5. That would mean pick a random target with some life already lost and just cata + wave = dead.
This would force any enemy to play very defensive and get an iron hull fast. and guess what when you have to buy a hull first you wont have enough damage to mess with a demolisher who can buy a tornado or even better stuff (bow = lots of creep gold) + skills + lot of HP (basicly same like you with hull). The only advantage of the heli would stay the speed and no obstacles which wont help you when camping in your control point.
thats just it and now do me favor and stop crying that everyone is kinda "picking on you and your ideas". Just grow up and dont blame the whole community.

best regards
khEg

p.s. what about the 1v1? ... scared?

[scron2]

LOL mines hit air. Why noone seems to make sense of this and calls me stupid just goes to show how elitist this community is. What I said was make a minor change and they blow up like I said "I LIKE HB", and cry about how the f-word got used in a post as a means to discredit my idea. They argue about anything BUT the topic at hand. Hell, I pretty much have to suggest what they have to say before they say it. I say "MATH" and this guy complains about nuking, while it can be blatantly used against scout, the helicopter can move faster with more HP. There really is nothing to discuss here, if there was it would be complaints about how demo vs scout is imba when using wave+catapult shot. If the argument does not exist for that tank, then I can immediately discredit it for the helicopter. It's that simple.

People are talking like hitting a catapult shot is gauranteed. It is NOT A SURE THING. This means if you miss 2, then effectively you lose 1/2 of that "850" damage. The CD is 40 sec... this isn't DOTA where everything has like a 8 sec CD.

To the guy who said "stop crying" if you are camping your CP, you are bad. Technically helicopter outfarms the demo outright so you're wrong there. Even with little or no HP by the first installment of noob gold at 5 mins, the demo won't have the ability to kill a gyro even if he had wave+catapult to hit air. So I don't see your point. Farming with demo a tornado means nothing, the helicopter has lost no advantage. And since when was it a requirement to make cheaper tanks better than the ones that cost more? Is this Hunter-Theory 1.0? Every single tank more expensive than the demo is still way better so what's your point? It's why people choose cheaper and cheaper+faster tanks. To farm up to get a better tank than demo (eventually) so without catapult hitting air, the heli gets too much of an advantage.

[IlPalazzo]

1) I contradict myself to to pose a situation in which you have not confirmed whether or not mines really are better than catapult shot.
--If you are going to debate this anymore you have to answer that.

Against air and faster targets, yes - mines are better than Artillery Shot. For this reason:

It won't even matter because you won't be able to hit the helicopters anyway. They're too small, artillery has a small AOE. They move around too much, and are some of the fastest tanks.

in reality you could have a lucky hit with artilletry vs air but its not ment to do so, so i think its stupid

I'll remark that it takes skill to hit moving targets with such a small aoe. Still I see no argument on what exactly makes hitting an air target unbalanced.
THE WHOLE DEBATE IS HERE^ BUT EVERYONE SEEMS TO LIKE TO DANCE AROUND IT AND AVOID DIRECTLY SAYING HOW HITTING AIR WITH CATAPULT WOULD RUIN THE GAME. IT WOULD NOT. NOT ONE INSTANCE OF "MATH" WHY? BECAUSE TANKS LIKE "SCOUT" ARE IN THE SAME BOAT WHEN THERE ARE NO MINES. THERE REALLY IS NO REASON FOR IT NOT TO BE ABLE TO HIT AIR BECAUSE AIR UNITS ARE HARDER TO HIT ANYWAY.

You and two other people agree, the Artillery Shot is very hard to aim at a fast and/or flying target, to the point where it is mere guess work to hit your target. This is why it isn't practical to change the skill's properties, nor would it really benefit the tank much to do so, even if the Demolisher is underpowered like you claim.

"The demolisher should be viable late game"
While I might have said something like this, you still don't say how adding air stun affects anything at all. If anything it does not.

I never said it would make the Demolisher a good late-game tank, nor do I think the change should happen even if it could. Yet here you justify your reasoning for making this change by claiming it will:

For this and more reasons the catapult is completely outmatched by several of the other tanks including thunder because it has a directed stun that can never miss and sky tank just because sky tank is so fast in comparison. I'm not saying make catapult "hunter" imba, I'm just saying give it a fair chance late game.

Again, you're undercutting the argument you made in your first post.

And finally all a person has to say is something arbitrary like "I LIKE HB" and they get disrespected. It has nothing at all to do with language use. It's an elitist community. Not everyone is bad like that but you get my point. You can't use bad language as an excuse to insult me with your false commentary.

I LIKE HB AND WILL OCCASIONALLY PLAY 8.55 UNTIL A NEW ALTERNATIVE IS IMPLEMENTED! :?

Stop claiming everyone is just being snobby around here. People simply don't agree with your idea.

[scron2]

Is that the best you could do? It would be hard to hit air, so let's not change the skill's properties? Are you out of your mind? All I'm asking for is for air to be highlighted when that is cast on them and for the air unit/s to get hit too.

Quite honestly if catapult hit air, the game would be funner. If you want to say the change isn't significant, so don't do it which is what I read in the above post, I am suggesting it because:
1) It makes sense
2) It makes the game more fun to play
3) There is skill involved.

And where I said sky tank I meant air ship. The "undercutting" or contradictions will exist as evidence that there really is no problem here. Just the fact that people disagree for no good reason. Maxxing mines certainly is more effective BUT the catapult shot adds more "fun factor".

[qweqqweq]

I think it would make sense if the artillery shot hit air and stunned it but only while the projectile was still traveling in the air. I just don't know how hard it would be to get it to work that way, how buggy it might be, and if it would be worth it. It would be really cool to smack a heli with it though.

[IlPalazzo]

Is that the best you could do? It would be hard to hit air, so let's not change the skill's properties? Are you out of your mind? All I'm asking for is for air to be highlighted when that is cast on them and for the air unit/s to get hit too.

...

1) It makes sense

How will it make sense if you hit a Helicopter's/Other Air Tank's shadow and he becomes damaged/stunned/killed? It wouldn't make sense - it'd just look goofy. If you think it'd be fast and easy to rescript the skill so it appears correctly, then pick up JASS and write a script up for them.

Quite honestly if catapult hit air, the game would be funner. If you want to say the change isn't significant, so don't do it which is what I read in the above post, I am suggesting it because:
...
2) It makes the game more fun to play

Fun is merely opinion, and most of the people on these boards disagree with yours that it would be. I haven't seen many people outcry that it was a necessary change, as they'd rather see Pala/Velo build a new HB alternative, a new tank, or get the league up and running. It's not worth their time to add something a "little more fun" to a few people when they're working on things that would be "a lot more fun" to a lot more people.

3) There is skill involved.

Reread:

It won't even matter because you won't be able to hit the helicopters anyway. They're too small, artillery has a small AOE. They move around too much, and are some of the fastest tanks.

in reality you could have a lucky hit with artilletry vs air but its not ment to do so, so i think its stupid

Don't confuse dumb luck with skill.

And where I said sky tank I meant air ship. The "undercutting" or contradictions will exist as evidence that there really is no problem here. Just the fact that people disagree for no good reason. Maxxing mines certainly is more effective BUT the catapult shot adds more "fun factor".

Usually it means their argument is weak and they're resorting to BS to justify their reasoning, but I'll give it to you... Good job!

I think it would make sense if the artillery shot hit air and stunned it but only while the projectile was still traveling in the air. I just don't know how hard it would be to get it to work that way, how buggy it might be, and if it would be worth it. It would be really cool to smack a heli with it though.

The Mappers only have so much time to add things to the map... They're planning to push out a new league and a new tank within the next couple versions. Having those would be much cooler , wouldn't you agree?

[khEg]

Is that the best you could do? It would be hard to hit air, so let's not change the skill's properties? Are you out of your mind? All I'm asking for is for air to be highlighted when that is cast on them and for the air unit/s to get hit too.

...

1) It makes sense

How will it make sense if you hit a Helicopter's/Other Air Tank's shadow and he becomes damaged/stunned/killed? It wouldn't make sense - it'd just look goofy. If you think it'd be fast and easy to rescript the skill so it appears correctly, then pick up JASS and write a script up for them.

Quite honestly if catapult hit air, the game would be funner. If you want to say the change isn't significant, so don't do it which is what I read in the above post, I am suggesting it because:
...
2) It makes the game more fun to play

Fun is merely opinion, and most of the people on these boards disagree with yours that it would be. I haven't seen many people outcry that it was a necessary change, as they'd rather see Pala/Velo build a new HB alternative, a new tank, or get the league up and running. It's not worth their time to add something a "little more fun" to a few people when they're working on things that would be "a lot more fun" to a lot more people.

3) There is skill involved.

Reread:

It won't even matter because you won't be able to hit the helicopters anyway. They're too small, artillery has a small AOE. They move around too much, and are some of the fastest tanks.

in reality you could have a lucky hit with artilletry vs air but its not ment to do so, so i think its stupid

Don't confuse dumb luck with skill.

And where I said sky tank I meant air ship. The "undercutting" or contradictions will exist as evidence that there really is no problem here. Just the fact that people disagree for no good reason. Maxxing mines certainly is more effective BUT the catapult shot adds more "fun factor".

Usually it means their argument is weak and they're resorting to BS to justify their reasoning, but I'll give it to you... Good job!

I think it would make sense if the artillery shot hit air and stunned it but only while the projectile was still traveling in the air. I just don't know how hard it would be to get it to work that way, how buggy it might be, and if it would be worth it. It would be really cool to smack a heli with it though.

The Mappers only have so much time to add things to the map... They're planning to push out a new league and a new tank within the next couple versions. Having those would be much cooler , wouldn't you agree?

:arrow: *agree*

[scron2]

Titan stuns air, copy+paste swap animation, done.

You claim to know something about coding but something already exists in the game so what is so hard to code then? Hitting air isn't a problem, you're faking a problem.

That's like saying "working on the game to change minor things is not worth it" ya, lets only edit hunter from now on guys.

[khEg]

Titan stuns air, copy+paste swap animation, done.

You claim to know something about coding but something already exists in the game so what is so hard to code then? Hitting air isn't a problem, you're faking a problem.

OMG come on .. are you really such a retard?
Please start to read, yes YOU!

I think it would make sense if the artillery shot hit air and stunned it but only while the projectile was still traveling in the air. I just don't know how hard it would be to get it to work that way, how buggy it might be, and if it would be worth it. It would be really cool to smack a heli with it though.

The Mappers only have so much time to add things to the map... They're planning to push out a new league and a new tank within the next couple versions. Having those would be much cooler , wouldn't you agree?

You have to code something different instead of just copying the thing from Titan BECAUSE queq is talking about hitting the vehicle WHILE THE PROJECTILE IS STILL MOVING AND NOT WHEN IT HITS THE GROUND :!:

So please come to present time and reread this thread from beginning!
Cant you realize that youre the only one who thinks that this should be changed right now?
We know your reasons but we (the BT community) don't think its just. So please .. you are free to write but we are free to ignore you if you keep on going like you do at the moment.
THIS JUST WONT BE CHANGED RIGHT NOW! .. Got it?
It is a good suggestion if some1 is very bored BUT atm noone is so.. just try to be more constructive instead of marking each reply to be a supreme stupidity in its best form.

This is no offense, I just try to get you to a point where you can see that this leads to nothing but trouble.


best regards
khEg

[IlPalazzo]

Titan stuns air, copy+paste swap animation, done.

You claim to know something about coding but something already exists in the game so what is so hard to code then? Hitting air isn't a problem, you're faking a problem.

How will it make sense if you hit a Helicopter's/Other Air Tank's shadow and he becomes damaged/stunned/killed? It wouldn't make sense - it'd just look goofy. If you think it'd be fast and easy to rescript the skill so it appears correctly, then pick up JASS and write a script up for them.

-----

That's like saying "working on the game to change minor things is not worth it" ya, lets only edit hunter from now on guys.

The Mappers only have so much time to add things to the map... They're planning to push out a new league and a new tank within the next couple versions.

[GooglyBoogly]

Is that the best you could do? It would be hard to hit air, so let's not change the skill's properties? Are you out of your mind? All I'm asking for is for air to be highlighted when that is cast on them and for the air unit/s to get hit too.

Quite honestly if catapult hit air, the game would be funner. If you want to say the change isn't significant, so don't do it which is what I read in the above post, I am suggesting it because:
1) It makes sense
2) It makes the game more fun to play
3) There is skill involved.

1) Makes sense to whom? I don't see anything wrong with having this restriction
2) The game would be more fun to play if every tank could hit every other tank with every move, for SOME players - but I wouldn't be one of them
3) There is skill involved in the way artillery shot currently works, but it is more of a meta-decision. How far / should I level this? How likely am I to be fighting flying tanks? etc..

[scron2]

I can't believe the arguments against it:

First it's "we don't know if it can be done -- so don't try it"
Then it has become "If you can't describe how it is done then it can't or shouldn't"
--> This sounds like the argument it building up to "IF YOU CAN DO IT YOURSELF GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAME AND IF YOU CAN'T STFU"
Seriously now, arguments should not be going down this path, especially when I'm talking to none of the map developers in this topic. And if they were I'm sure they wouldn't be saying those things.

THEN they have to come up with how hitting a shadow doesn't make sense... Really? This is exactly what happens with The titan does its stun. Who is to say that the projectile does not explode just before it hits the ground for the catapult anyway?

Here we have completely sidtracked from "is it balanced" and left that argument since it is quite evident the game balance isn't an issue. Now it's all about "implementation and does it make sense" this forum is a mockery of sensible debate. Next thing we'll be debating is how does a missle stun a target? Well that doesn't make much sense either now does it? If people like the opposing posters here were around when this game was being made NOTHING would get done.

If you oppose a trivial suggestion, quit trying to oppose it because in the end you're just going to end up looking like a fool. Every argument against it does not make sense and it seems like they are clawing away at it frantically for no reason other than the fact that I'm new here. What an uninviting community, biased.

EDIT: The post above this isn't worth responding to. If you read what is in the topic you would have read what I meant by it making sense, and you would argue. Claiming I have said nothing in that post just confirms that you have no argument since you have no reason other than just to say 'no'. It's like saying you disagree and completely take this whole posted topic out of context when you fail to fill in the blank with a reason to oppose it. Also the "meta decision" is only wave + mines right now with maybe 1 stun. There really is little to no reason to level catapult shot because it isn't gauranteed to hit and mines are definitely more effective as is shockwave. I also addressed that, you fail to create any argument, you don't read the topic once again. And finally "if every tank could hit every other tank with every move" -- you're not one of them, sure I get that BUT... Really do you know what things DONT hit other things? There are very few. Hunter smoke, Decrepify on air are 2 that were serious balance issues. How is catapult shot even worth mentioning in the same sentence as those 2 abilities? You're post is a joke, read the topic and post something intelligible instead of ripping apart a quick post I made that was in note form at best. Refer to points made or don't post at all.

kheg: If you have development skills, please let us know this. Confirm whether or not this change is doable and quote an amount of time required to change it. I bet you can do neither because you don't know what you're talking about at all. You have no reason to disagree with this change otherwise. It's a balanced reasonable suggestion and I know that if Titan can stun both, it implies that you can change the catapult shot to do the same. And that is NOT UNREASONABLE TO ASSUME.

[khEg]

Seriously now, arguments should not be going down this path, especially when I'm talking to none of the map developers in this topic. And if they were I'm sure they wouldn't be saying those things.

PLEEEEEEEAAAAAASE can some1 of the mapper/dev team say something so he stops using such arguments which are just as stupid as the rest of his replies ............

kheg: If you have development skills, please let us know this. Confirm whether or not this change is doable and quote an amount of time required to change it. I bet you can do neither because you don't know what you're talking about at all. You have no reason to disagree with this change otherwise. It's a balanced reasonable suggestion and I know that if Titan can stun both, it implies that you can change the catapult shot to do the same. And that is NOT UNREASONABLE TO ASSUME.

Congrats youre very right I dont know anything. So what now? Do you think just because Im not a mapper I cant evaluate how specific things operate?
To answer your post I would consider some kind of line damage added to that skill which triggers air only and which would have like 50 range less than the skill range.
Of course I guess one should also check if possible that the skill can just do either line damage OR "ground" damage as it wouldnt make any sense to hit an air unit and still hit the targeted area on the ground.
One additional consideration would be necessary which would be the possibility to hit enemy air creeps and if this would be triggered too or not.
So I will quote myself to say AGAIN something i already mentioned:

Cant you realize that youre the only one who thinks that this should be changed right now?
We know your reasons but we (the BT community) don't think its just. So please .. you are free to write but we are free to ignore you if you keep on going like you do at the moment.
THIS JUST WONT BE CHANGED RIGHT NOW! .. Got it?
It is a good suggestion if some1 is very bored BUT atm noone is so..

Hope you can live with that

best regards
khEg

P.S.

and it seems like they are clawing away at it frantically for no reason other than the fact that I'm new here. What an uninviting community, biased.

This is not true.

[Andibert]

I think Arty shot on air woud suck for the following reasons.

1.Ballancing argument:
Shot has much damage, splash, stun and high range. The only reason why its not imba is, you cant hit everything. If it coud hit air it had to be nerved. That would suck.

2. Realism argument:
Its Artilery. Artillery is usually Ground to Ground

3. Diversety argument:
It DOE'S improve gameplay if there are skills that can't hit everything. And you can compare them to the special skills of higer tanks. Arty has a high impact on gameplay because of its high range/damage. Its the only skill you can use to onehit a tinker 15 sec after the game started. the only skill you can do a tripple kill with in the first minute (i did). and if it could hit air it would be too much like the antigrav skill.

So my opinion is DON'T CHANGE. Not because it's difficult to code but it simply would make the demolisher less cool.

Peace out!

[khEg]

2. Realism argument:
Its Artilery. Artillery is usually Ground to Ground

Wow Andi, :roll:
it is well known that in World War2 the germans used artillery as AntiAir, they had no flak but imba-shooters. Therefor they would have won the war IF NOT
HITLER has killed himself!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

best regards
khEg
:twisted:


P.S. I know this is enforcing Godwin's law but .. who cares? I think this discussion has grown long enough ^^

[Andibert]

Yes Demolisher is totally Blitzkrieg

*edit* well no it isn't, Thundertank is.

[IlPalazzo]

Yup, no use arguing with a brick wall. I think most of what needs to be stated has already been said.

Nice use of Godwin's law to wrap it up... I think the true winner here is DerSatan (and crew), guess he was right from the get-go.

[scron2]

Seriously now, arguments should not be going down this path, especially when I'm talking to none of the map developers in this topic. And if they were I'm sure they wouldn't be saying those things.

PLEEEEEEEAAAAAASE can some1 of the mapper/dev team say something so he stops using such arguments which are just as stupid as the rest of his replies ............

kheg: If you have development skills, please let us know this. Confirm whether or not this change is doable and quote an amount of time required to change it. I bet you can do neither because you don't know what you're talking about at all. You have no reason to disagree with this change otherwise. It's a balanced reasonable suggestion and I know that if Titan can stun both, it implies that you can change the catapult shot to do the same. And that is NOT UNREASONABLE TO ASSUME.

Congrats youre very right I dont know anything. So what now? Do you think just because Im not a mapper I cant evaluate how specific things operate?
To answer your post I would consider some kind of line damage added to that skill which triggers air only and which would have like 50 range less than the skill range.
Of course I guess one should also check if possible that the skill can just do either line damage OR "ground" damage as it wouldnt make any sense to hit an air unit and still hit the targeted area on the ground.
One additional consideration would be necessary which would be the possibility to hit enemy air creeps and if this would be triggered too or not.
So I will quote myself to say AGAIN something i already mentioned:

Cant you realize that youre the only one who thinks that this should be changed right now?
We know your reasons but we (the BT community) don't think its just. So please .. you are free to write but we are free to ignore you if you keep on going like you do at the moment.
THIS JUST WONT BE CHANGED RIGHT NOW! .. Got it?
It is a good suggestion if some1 is very bored BUT atm noone is so..

Hope you can live with that

best regards
khEg

P.S.

and it seems like they are clawing away at it frantically for no reason other than the fact that I'm new here. What an uninviting community, biased.

This is not true.

So kheg admits to posting spam and blatent argument without content or anything to back it up whatsoever. Way to go. I don't think debating this with you is worth it anymore. Please leave this topic now kheg, you are cluttering up the topic.

As for Andibert:
Balancing - with comparison to hunter's smoke (change to air and ground) and Demon tank's old decrepify, this change is hardly as impacting as changing what these abilities could hit. It's a balanced suggestion. You calling it unbalanced because it's "imba" says nothing because later game tanks like titan have that kind of a stun that is 10x better... apparently you don't see a problem with that? Is it not "diverse enough for you"? Does that stun need a nerf too? Think about it.

Realism - once again a flying object hitting a flying object. Nice use of the word usually. There is no "realism argument here" if you read the topic, and if you were smart enough you wouldn't mention it at all.

Diversity: Why is that important? It's a low-level tank that won't see any more action past level 10 at best. Buffing it slightly to make it better is not going to hurt diversity. If anything it adds more diversity because it can do more. And it is balanced so it doesn't hurt what you hold so dearly and vaguely as diversity.

[Andibert]

Here we go:

Balancing - with comparison to hunter's smoke (change to air and ground) and Demon tank's old decrepify, this change is hardly as impacting as changing what these abilities could hit. It's a balanced suggestion. You calling it unbalanced because it's "imba" says nothing because later game tanks like titan have that kind of a stun that is 10x better... apparently you don't see a problem with that? Is it not "diverse enough for you"? Does that stun need a nerf too? Think about it.

It would be even Worse than changing hunters smoke because you use demo in early game and in early game you have 5 ground tanks (tinker, scout, light, antigrav, demo) and 2 air tanks( heli and medi) so you get 40% more targets if you can hit air. Arty makes no percentual dmg so the airtanks (lower hp) would be affected more than groud tanks.
Comparing Demo with Titan is the most stupid thig i've ever heared. 10x Stronger? Titan is 13x more Expensive. If you are still using Demo while others are on Titan you "practice an alternative lifestyle and have special needs". You usually use Demo not longer than 20 minutes, so it should not be directly compared to tanks higher than airship.
Btw. Titan is diverse enough sice only one of his direct damage skills is damaging air

BRealism - once again a flying object hitting a flying object. Nice use of the word usually. There is no "realism argument here" if you read the topic, and if you were smart enough you wouldn't mention it at all.

I can read it was brought up by qweqqweq.

I think it would make sense if the artillery shot hit air and stunned it but only while the projectile was still traveling in the air. I just don't know how hard it would be to get it to work that way, how buggy it might be, and if it would be worth it. It would be really cool to smack a heli with it though.

And by the way its nearly impossible to hit an flying object with one balistic projectile. Thats why you shoot ducks with a shot gun and dont use rifles for duckhunt. (Flak uses the same principle by exploding in the path of the aircraft)
Furthermore it was just a aditionally point and not the most important one.

Diversity: Why is that important? It's a low-level tank that won't see any more action past level 10 at best. Buffing it slightly to make it better is not going to hurt diversity. If anything it adds more diversity because it can do more. And it is balanced so it doesn't hurt what you hold so dearly and vaguely as diversity.

Diversity is important throughout the whole game. otherwhise we wouldn't need 7 different start tanks. We need diversity between tanks. Light tank is a good alrounder, Heli has advantages at movement, antigrav ist strong at short range and can be used log time due its dimension shift. demo is strong against ground because he can take more damage than every other tank and got his arty. You could not counter demo with a heli anymore if arty could hit air, because Demo would have lost its disatvantage against air.
You also need diversity in the skills of a tank so you can play different strategys. there would be much less need for the wave if arty could hit air.
Diversity doesnt mean one can do everything (I wold call that versatility). diversity does mean everybody has strengths and weaknesses.

Bottom line:
If you remove the weakness against air from the Demo, he becomes imba, boring or both.

Line under the Bottom Line:
I understand why you would wish to change it, and it sucks if a heli comes to your lane when you allready skilled arty. But it would suck even more if the first 15 minutes would be a gray mesh of equal tanks.