Scout: balancing

[Exodus]

I often hear that you guys aren't satisfied with the overall balance of the Scout. Use this thread to give constructive feedback on him. Just saying "the scout is imba" won't help anybody.

Say what, in your opinion, has to be changed.

Discuss!

[Tribulation]

Well, so far, I was convinced that Scout's alright now and doesn't need greater balancing. Yesterday I had a pub game, playing Demolisher on the right lane, coming from above, with Bow against a Scout with Bombarding Rockets, and there was absolutely nothing I could do against him, he pushed me back to my cp, never crossed the line (between the trees and the cliffs south of the cp) along which my mines were (since he of course saw them, and due to his creeps and greater range, I couldn't push any further), and eventually out-farmed me, got 2 more Rockets and had no problem to kill me on my cp.
Might not have been my best performance, might have gone differently had I bought a Basic Magic, but if Scout is that powerful against high-hp Demolisher, how much more difficult would it be for a Tank or a Heli? One can never approach the Scout, since its towers provide cover, as do the creeps (of which he will have more if he chose the creep cannon), and he exceeds one's own range. So the only solution could be Bombarding Rockets for oneself, but that's almost a sure failure in terms of farming.

I don't know if others perceived this as a problem, neither do I know what could be done about it .-.

[JpOO]

I dont think that its So Imba, but reducing creep-canon damage would be nice. I think that storm-tank or how is it named is much more unbalanced =)

[Prog]

I'd like to see creep cannon replaced with a normal tank cannon.

[TKF]

Isn't the scout balanced yet?

Cons:
low damage creep cannon
Shitty defense systems skill
No stun capabilities
To little hp
Bad at working alone

Pros:
Adept at long range
Net lasts very long
Defense skill provide minor heal
Effective when it's teamed by multiple long range scouts to combine firepower

[Prog]

Isn't the scout balanced yet?

It is not. You can creep with scout so well, that you'll change tank faster than everyone else, which makes quite a lot of your "cons" not existing (to little hp, "shitty" defense system skill don't effect the game that much until the opponents are at a certain lvl, at which you allready have another tank - and you have to keep in mind that you can stay at ~1250 range with the scout, it will be quite hard for the opponents to hit you from this range). The damage of creep cannon isn't really low, at lvl 2 it's quite high in my opinion (which makes it as well quite good at working alone actually).

[Frechheit]

Isn't the scout balanced yet?

It is not. You can creep with scout so well, that you'll change tank faster than everyone else, which makes quite a lot of your "cons" not existing (to little hp, "shitty" defense system skill don't effect the game that much until the opponents are at a certain lvl, at which you allready have another tank - and you have to keep in mind that you can stay at ~1250 range with the scout, it will be quite hard for the opponents to hit you from this range). The damage of creep cannon isn't really low, at lvl 2 it's quite high in my opinion (which makes it as well quite good at working alone actually).

I think Scout is balanced. Its have only 700 hp so its pretty easy to kill it.

So when Enemys play light tank its very hard for scout not to die.

[Tribulation]

That is only true if the Scout doesn't go for long range.

[JpOO]

So when Enemys play light tank its very hard for scout not to die.

Good player will always win vs. light tank with 2k 1300r.

[Andibert]

Sorry but no.

if you dont buy anything (both) and light tank has 2 basicm. for example, you are qite equal in damage, but your damage is to all, but only half of the scouts damage hits your tank. so if you shoot your rocket lvl 2 the scout has still 50% life and after another 350 dmg hes down. Even if there are 4 enemy creeps that are just something about 2 to 4 seconds. So u can get the scout down if u got lvl 4 and your opponent just makes a little mistake.

The only thing is the bounty you gain.
After the Watchtowers bounty is reduced by 50% the scout player doesnt need to take care if his WTs are getting down again. So i think the Watchtowers bounty should be set back to the 8.48 value.

[Gammagulp]

Hmmm, got little time, so I only post my sugestions (not all at once shall be changed - just ideas)

1. let scout cost 550 (+equal HP) , stopping some not so funny tactics
2. decrease creepcannon damage by 10% - 15% or lower range by maybe 150 range
3. give double the bounty for the watchtower not half ^^ - that means 20 for lvl 1 tower

I only give an example for the third suggestion. I once battle on a lane with a light tank an we both are a bit heavy damaged. Before retreating to heal I placed a watch tower lvl 2. I killed ALL creeps, except 1 marine of the complete next wave with support of my creeps and a little control of my mouse , that means maybe 80 gold. --> the watchtower often kills 2-3 creeps and lvl 1 gave 10 gold, while a marine gives 12 before the decrease. even lvl 2 watchtower gave not 24 gold, like one big creep, but that tower is with 1000HP capable of killing much creeps and block damage. I thought more than one time fighting against a scout ... "why does this tower give such less money" - and that was in 8.48 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

4. Maybe decrease Speed by 5 or 10. Not much but maybe effective

You can see all suggestions of mine are not that big, because i think the scout through the last versions get more and more balanced, but i think there is missing just a little nerf to say it is balanced. - I think 2 or 3 little weaknesses from above or suggestions from other players could help

[qweqqweq]

Hmmm, got little time, so I only post my sugestions (not all at once shall be changed - just ideas)

1. let scout cost 550 (+equal HP) , stopping some not so funny tactics
2. decrease creepcannon damage by 10% - 15% or lower range by maybe 150 range
3. give double the bounty for the watchtower not half ^^ - that means 20 for lvl 1 tower

I only give an example for the third suggestion. I once battle on a lane with a light tank an we both are a bit heavy damaged. Before retreating to heal I placed a watch tower lvl 2. I killed ALL creeps, except 1 marine of the complete next wave with support of my creeps and a little control of my mouse , that means maybe 80 gold. --> the watchtower often kills 2-3 creeps and lvl 1 gave 10 gold, while a marine gives 12 before the decrease. even lvl 2 watchtower gave not 24 gold, like one big creep, but that tower is with 1000HP capable of killing much creeps and block damage. I thought more than one time fighting against a scout ... "why does this tower give such less money" - and that was in 8.48 :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

4. Maybe decrease Speed by 5 or 10. Not much but maybe effective

You can see all suggestions of mine are not that big, because i think the scout through the last versions get more and more balanced, but i think there is missing just a little nerf to say it is balanced. - I think 2 or 3 little weaknesses from above or suggestions from other players could help

i think this is a pretty good suggestion. although, i think decreasing the range of the creep gun would be a bad idea cause it would buff for the scout not nerf it (because you'd be able to target the creeps better with it). i'd leave the creep gun as it is. my best suggestion would be to increase the bounty of the watch towers. i think they should give MORE experience and gold than they did in 8.48. probably 2 x's what they did.

i've said this before but:

a scout with double basic magics can upgrade both basic magics, get a small hull, and upgrade the hull before anyone in a light tank can get to a high enough level to be able to do a 1-2-rocket, rocket swarm, punch combo and kill it. if you do that you'll still be able to get a 3 to 3.5k gold weapon about the same time the guy in the light tank can. so you'll actually be nearly impossible to kill while the opponent in the light tank, on the other hand, will be the one who's got to be very careful. plus, the scout seems to outlevel anything it goes against 'cause i'm assuming you get more xp for killing enemy creeps instead of just being around them when they die.

[qweqqweq]

Report this postReply with quote Re: Suggested Changes for 8.49
by DerSatan on Sat 12 Jul 08, 02:20

ludicrous is that you say he farms up to 4 times better than the next best tank.


that would mean the you can effort a demon tank at a point when the next best tank cant even effort a goblin shredder. i want to see a replay of that.

he said "UP TO" 4 times better. and that's not an exageration. if you play an average noob in lordaeron you can easily do that.

here's a replay where i played a 1vs2 vs some pretty good players (not pro, but not anywhere close to noobs). in it (even though i didn't play exceptionally well) i got a teleport, 1 basic magic upgraded, 1 tornado upgraded, a light hull upgraded, 2 swarm rockets upgraded, and a demon tank while my two oponents were still using just light tanks with much less equipment and weapons than me. in a 1vs2 i know i get a more starting gold and force gold than them. but still, it's ridiculous how fast my scout farms gold for me.

[kittyonmyfoot]

The demolisher's artillery shot + shockwave should have made short work of the scout... you shouldn't need any weapons... you must have had an off day. I find qweqqweq's assertions of the scout over the light tank to be overstated. I can easily get to a ttank well before a scout has all those upgrades. Also in a Ttank I can farm better mid game and I have decent burst damage in the lightning + chain lightning.

The scout is just ok... the imba arguments is from pro's playing range games early on and just frustrating the heck out of people. In one game as a scout a light tank with a fireball was able to get it just right where a rocket + 1 fireball would kill me. I hugged the tower until I was able to farm a Ttank. He made the mistake of getting a 2nd fireball and a rocket first before I upgraded. From there I just ran him over. 2200 + 3300 for the weps that he chose vs the 3900 I used for the ttank. Course approx 750 was from killing me.

Farming with a team mate you should be able to keep up with a scout in a light tank or heli ... it's just a heck of a lot more work...

Vs. multiple ranged scouts get a troop command fast just like you would any ranged opponent. Vs ranged scouts + a sniping demo... T.T

[Althend]

Cons:
low damage creep cannon
Shitty defense systems skill
No stun capabilities
To little hp
Bad at working alone

Pros:
Adept at long range
Net lasts very long
Defense skill provide minor heal
Effective when it's teamed by multiple long range scouts to combine firepower

/Cons;
The creep canon is largely enough to kill creeps, this is why people use it... ---> To remove of the cons.
No stun isn't a cons since the goal of the tanks is killing creep. ---> To remove of the cons.
Too little HP ? There is too much HP since the price... -----> PRO
Bad at working alone? Most of people playing the creep plays it alone. ---> To remove of the cons


This tank has largely more pros than cons...

[horselance]

Scout is imba because of what?
Creep cannon? Nearly same dps as normal cannon but hits only creeps and much slower.
Defensive system? Tiny heal and tiny ressistance.
Tower? Tiny HP.
Manipulate? Never used it as scout...
It seems so imba because Scout players always buy long range... And if there are more than 2 scouts, ranged weapons rule.. But even a helli can buy a bombarding rocket too. Buy a helli and rocket it and see what is imba and what is not.
I dont think it is imba...

[Tribulation]

Just get 2-3 Scouts with Rockets or Torpedo in the middle, and it's extremely difficult for those who did not go for Scout with long range. The Scouts can push the others to their cp, and they will not die if they're not retarded. Just let the Watch Towers take care of the creeps, while the others have to wait until the enemy's creeps come close to their cp, since they can hardly leave it - one hit from Torpedo and you're done for, or a couple more from the Rockets. Since no creeps are left, it's only a matter of time until a Light Tank or a Heli easily dies on his own cp - no creeps to cover, and no chance to get near the attackers. This surely is a situation that does not occur in every game, but it happens often enough, and it demonstrates how the single advantages of Scout amount to imbaness.

Sure, everybody can get long range, but as Scout farms better than any other starting tank, even with long range, getting a Light Tank with Rockets will inevitably lead to being out-farmed. Long-range weapons have the disadvantage of not farming well, and Scout levels out that disadvantage.

[Gammagulp]

I usally dont play with long range - I use 950 Range, fan of knives --> u start with some gold left and can creep good, becauese the enemy is lvl 1 as well and cant kill you if you are carefully. You can update later on and have got 950 Range + creep cannon.

If you now use your tower as HP defence and creeper against normal weapons (not 1300) you can spread enemy weapon fire, while you kill creeps nearby very easy with creep cannon/ tower/ start weapon. If you care its not so easy to kill you, because yuo are even faster than other tanks.

The problem is, that you creep faster and get faster XP and then can get a hull, if the enemy gets a to high lvl. SO you are protected. If the enemy buys a hull its no problem for you, because your aim is to kill creeps not tanks, but even that is possible with the scout. If the heli could plant towers it would be my secondary skill after the tank cannon :mrgreen:

[Tribulation]

Situations like these are the reason for my concern, I'm the grey player. Sure, the enemy left me alone to farm, but there wasn't much they could have done. The first 15mins are enough to see what I mean.

http://rapidshare.com/files/130316908/20...1.w3g.html

[qweqqweq]

kitty wrote:

I find qweqqweq's assertions of the scout over the light tank to be overstated. I can easily get to a ttank well before a scout has all those upgrades. Also in a Ttank I can farm better mid game and I have decent burst damage in the lightning + chain lightning.

if u get a thunder tank i guarantee u i will have a small or medium hull and two basic magics all upgraded. and i'll still be out farming u. i'll still be faster than you. i won't have invested 2k in non-refundable gold for the thunder tank that you have. and i can almost guarantee you that i'll still kill you more than you kill me.

90% of the time i just go straight to demon tank now even vs pro's who're very close to as good as me. people have tried everything you can think of to stop this but i just haven't had any problems doing so. one time i went goblin tank to take the mid cp, then i got 3 factories and did two creep upgrades so i could get a frost robot. that worked out well, but i'd have to definately admit that's the last time i do that cuase it was much more difficult than the simple strat of getting the demon tank and a teleport.

if i wasn't going mid every game i'd not get as many weapons because so many less creeps go tot he side lanes and i'd get a demon tank even faster.

frechhiet wrote:

I think Scout is balanced. Its have only 700 hp so its pretty easy to kill it.

So when Enemys play light tank its very hard for scout not to die.

lol. omg man, i can't believe you actually wrote that. if i start with 2 basic magics, upgrade them and then get a small or medium hull with the scout i can still outfarm you and not even come close to getting killed by anyone no matter what tank they got. even if there are 3 guys facing just me. and i'll still (i can almost guarantee it) kill you more than you can kill me).

before anyone else says the scout is not imba please do this first:
1. play a game with a scout and play defensively, just focus on killing creeps
2. get two basic magics
3. upgrade them both
4. get a light or a medium hull as soon as possible.
if you do that i think that you u are gonna be doing what is currently by far far far far the most imba strat u can do. if you dissagree please gimme something that's real proof that what you're saying has some merit. this is just silly the way people are arguing against its imbaness.

btw: i still think that ALL tanks should have an armor requirement. the demon tank is being overplayed even though it's not imba. everyone is just falling in love with its stun.