Sky Fortress Overpowered

[xenocide85]

GooglyBoogly... the whole freaking point is that there isn't a counter to the SF. All you can do is.... get a SF.

[Frechheit]

What is with Antigrav?

Only in 1vs1 i think Sky Fort is imba otherwise not.

[kittyonmyfoot]

um no... don't need an antigrav that flies and a tons more armor. A major drawback of the SF ultimate is that it's stationary. There's plenty of counters for the SF. THere's range, tele breakers, hulls, tank upgrades, nets, etc...

It's not an "I Win" button... It's a "Let's see if you're dumb enough to attack a group" button. ... apparently b-tanker was. I'd have split them then killed them 1 by 1. As soon as you get to the SF you can run amuk in the town. With the titan he could have easily taken the SF 1v1.

[Shadow_Warrior.]

4 frost lasers upgrades with ulti pack and power pack on a titan vs a sky fortress with 2 frost lasers speed pack and some other items that didnt rly matter. 1v1 I lost. It is impos to win 1v1 against a sky fortress and i find that ridiculous that a tank costing 9k more cant even dent his opponent.

I agree that 5v5 sky fortress ult can be taken down through cordination but the same applies through the sky fortresses team. Even 2 seconds of that ult disables 5k,10k maybe worth of damage. The other thing is, the "overpowered" demon tank stun makes the other tank immobile but they can still fire back. Hurts but so what i can fire back and maybe even kill u. I find it stupid how wow I just died and he can just keep pushing.

And since u say that this shouldnt be changed for newbs and that pros can counter this. What happens when both sides are pro and have 5 sky fortresses vs 5 infernals or titans or w/e. The nets can happen and even the 2 seconds late game can be devastating.

I had to post this after losing another game after being up 100 kills on my opponent and losing horribly to it since it was 2 sky fortresses vs a titan and a shitty tinker,heavy tank

OP +1

[Gammagulp]

In a real 2vs 2 a real pro who use the SF can own with a 2nd SF easy.
I suppose you argue as the following:

If the SF #1 uses ulti against teammate - stun the SF if you can.

--> thats right but now comes the player who is "thinking" in a game

The SF #2 disables the same target again:

--> the allied player dont have two stuns, (demon, Titan, Infernal, frost robot) all have just ONE stun ability
the second sky fortress just holds the old players with ready stun as fast as possible again --
so its a 2vs1 for some time, just with the additional hp of the teammate to be killed too.

I don´t know how that much people say its only imba at 1vs1, the rest off the SF Skills are not that good IMO, but that one does all

[italyrools]

Good point about the other skills. I guess the powerrush thing is useful sometimes (gets you places fast and kills stuff) but the bombs are just suicidal.

[bangyouredead]

It's not overpowered generally. It's just strong in 1v1 or 2v2 fights (like antigrav), but in 3v3+ Infernal is way stronger, so it's quite well balanced for 5v5.

It's not a matter of how many opponents youre fighting. If they have enough sky fortresses all they have to do is choose an opponent, tp and hold together, and youre all dead, 1v1,3v3, or 5v5...

[Prog]

It's not overpowered generally. It's just strong in 1v1 or 2v2 fights (like antigrav), but in 3v3+ Infernal is way stronger, so it's quite well balanced for 5v5.

It's not a matter of how many opponents youre fighting. If they have enough sky fortresses all they have to do is choose an opponent, tp and hold together, and youre all dead, 1v1,3v3, or 5v5...

Well, currently you won't be able to show me a 5v5 team which is able to do that. I don't think the 5 best clan bug players (with ts2) are, you know any better ones?

Normally its just so that at least one inf won't be shackled fast enough so he can use the chaos teleport and stun, which aborts the sf ulti. If anyone 5 player team is able to do the thing you mentioned with perfect timing, they would win anyway, becouse it needs really a high amount of skill.

[bangyouredead]

Using voice chat it would be very easy to coordinate such an attack. Even without voice, doing it 2v2 or 3v3 would be simple. i don't know what youre referring to with the infernal tele disabling it, however it takes .5 seconds to launch and the stun takes effect immediately. Teleport to an inf and they have no chance of avoiding hold besides constantly having their finger on their teleport to escape. There is no effective counter, solo or in team games...especially if its a very pro game.

[Prog]

Using voice chat it would be very easy to coordinate such an attack. Even without voice, doing it 2v2 or 3v3 would be simple. i don't know what youre referring to with the infernal tele disabling it, however it takes .5 seconds to launch and the stun takes effect immediately. Teleport to an inf and they have no chance of avoiding hold besides constantly having their finger on their teleport to escape. There is no effective counter, solo or in team games...especially if its a very pro game.

Please show me just one replay where I can see this. In the games today you've done rather bad with Sky Fortress for example (You had 3 sfs in your team, we just 1, but only one of your sfs had positive stats).

[bangyouredead]

Please show me just one replay where I can see this. In the games today you've done rather bad with Sky Fortress for example (You had 3 sfs in your team, we just 1, but only one of your sfs had positive stats).[/quote]

Ahhh, didnt realize you were Inter. Yes, I did poorly with the sky fort in the one game I played you after beating bennie.fm 'n friends a couple times, I never typically use it. And i think the fact that a guy started 2-12 and dropped and we lost both sides early in game might have made a difference. We didn't have a chance after that. There isnt much you can do when youre lacking cash all game... Sky fort is the most rigged in high scoring and even games(beforehand). None of us had very strong weapons, so it didn't matter much. If I had a couple frost lasers it wouldve been a different story. Point is...longer the games/better the weapons, the more rigged fortress gets.

[kittyonmyfoot]

...We didn't have a chance after that. There isnt much you can do when youre lacking cash all game...

Point is...longer the games/better the weapons, the more rigged fortress gets.

Raise your hand if that made no sense at all

^( '-' )

[bangyouredead]

Hmmm, let me elaborate for you... In a longer game people tend to have more cash. Therefore, they can afford stronger weapons, which have the ability to kill a tank relatively quickly. So, a sky fortress early in the midgame with only moderate weapons, say 1-2k dps will not hurt so much, and the stun wont be as long either. Later in the game, however, when you have frosts and the such and 5k++ dps and a 5 second hold (25k damage), it deals much more damage. Creeps dont make much of a difference at this point either, as they are easily killed. That's the reasoning.

[Gammagulp]

We dont say SF=win, because a SF with 2x2000 little weapons can only deal minor damage and is not able to fight against an Inf with 2x 2000 Gold weapons. If the stun is only 3 seconds and you only deal 500-700 damage it is quiet weak, because the ulti himself deal no damage.

If your enemy team is not positive before they have SF, because your team is much better and got stronger weapons and maybe they have not enough teamplay to arrange in 2v2 dual holding, just having the Skyfortress wont make the game change but maybe they got a bit more ... difficult to fight against. -> maybe even more than with Infernal would be.


If the Ulti would be lowered to 3 seconds - its a quiet useless ulti for a 16k Tank.
Why? : Because imagine you saved 16k and go for the sky fortress, you have a 2 second holding without damage and quiet weak weapons. Butif you go for infernal and received 2 Frosts maybe - it could be better to go back from infernal to SF, because you could max out the ultimate and can deal really good damage.

A nerfed ulti like some guys want IMO makes the tank useless in early end game situations. And as I think thats why much SFs of weaker players dont hurt that much at the beginning of the end game. The "right" changing of the tank, or survival of the Sfs is important, and if the one side is much more pro its easy to overwhelm the enemies before they got 4 long laser or a frost laser.
I would prefer just some change of the ultimate.

[Prog]

Let's consider the game I mentioned (regardless of the fact that obviously noone can show me any replays where the alleged imbaness is proved): It's true that you had a discer with 2-14 in ~min 20 (?), we had one in ~min 34 (?) with 4-7. At this time our team had approximatly 14 kills more than the other one. You had the first Sky Fortress at ~1:06:xx with ~17-25 stats. The game ended at ~1:42:xx and you got 22-49 stats (while the other sf of yours was at -7 and one at +4) - you see how your stats actually got worse by playing sky fortress 40 minutes? (The stats of at the +4 sf got worse as well while playing sf, didn't check the difference of the -7 one). This raises some questions:

Point is...longer the games/better the weapons, the more rigged fortress gets.

(Bangyouredead)

How long you want to play till it gets "rigged"? 2 1/2 hours? 1:40:xx doesn't seem to be long enough.

If your enemy team is not positive before they have SF, because your team is much better and got stronger weapons and maybe they have not enough teamplay to arrange in 2v2 dual holding

(Gammagulp)

Remember what Bangyouredead said?

Even without voice, doing it 2v2 or 3v3 would be simple.

(Bangyouredead)

Well, as it is so simple Frechheit, Bang and 2 other bt clan members should be able to do this and won't lack of enough teamplay to arrange dual holding, shouldn't they?

There is no effective counter, solo or in team games...especially if its a very pro game.

(Bangyouredead)

Well, maybe it wasn't a top-notch game, but if there should be no counter, most middleclass players (bt clan members are said to be at least this skilled) should be able to win with a non-counterable strat, shouldn't they?

We dont say SF=win [...]

(Gammagulp)

Well, it's true that you don't say that in it's strictest sense but as it is said to be without an effective counter it should win the game if the skill gap isn't very big. As Bang did rather poorly that game (and at least one other teammate of him did worse than normal as well) that might have been the case, but how shall we judge if it was? When can we say it was only the SF winning the game and when was it the skill difference? We can't wait for perfect games on both sides as they will never occur, we just can use our empiric values from games we played to determine (well it's basicly underdetermined, but we may can get at least some kind of better picture) the alleged overpower and I never played a game where I would say that mostly the SF did the job, not the skill (and you seem to can't show any replays - I can upload the one I was speaking about, if needed, but Bang was playing in that as well, so I don't think it's necessery).

[bangyouredead]

Inter, you bring up some good points. Yes it is difficult to tp and target different players in 2v2 or 3v3, but clearly it can be done. Not so easy to type and play at the same time, and i have never used teamspeak, but i imagine with that it wouldn't be too difficult. As more people get familiar with the tank and use teamspeak that scenario will probably pop up more often among pro games. And yes, in the last game we played SF was pretty worthless for me as I had weak weapons. Perhaps you haven't played many games where everyone is getting frost, but I have and SF owns even if it has a couple less frosts or is being used by a noob. Those games are rare but when you start getting 5k from creeps and 2k a kill they can happen. But imagine a common game where someone has a demon and 4 poisons upgraded, which deal about 3400 dps, at about an hour in. Theyre level 16 and switch to sky fort. I think it's a 3.2 sec hold at that level? Not sure. But still they would deal 10k plus with a hold while taking no damage. If someone chose a titan with the same stats, they would get beaten almost every time by the SF, despite higher hp, troop levels, and invinc doesnt help as you have to use it at full health (or die) and youre down to 5k health when it runs out and die almost instantly after that. Also, no stun in the game besides guard can last for 5 seconds. It just seems that for the cost of the tank it blows every other ult out of the water in games where people are dealing 2k plus damage. In these games there is no effective counter.

[JpOO]

Maybe remove this tank from map at all? =) I dont like how it looks like, I dont its skills, I dont like the idea to balance them somehow...

[italyrools]

No, flat out no. I love sky fortress, it's really unique.

[Shadow_Warrior.]

Well since there are 2 threads going on about this same topic, I will post my same comment from over there.

Sky fortress has the only ability in the game to disable a players autofire attacks. That to me just screams op but I think a fair way for that ult to be changed is to make it do damage instead where it is more like the rhasta net in dota where it holds u and does damage a second but would not disable the weapons. Disables abilities like all the other stuns but not the frost lasers/all other weapons.

[lyf590]

i have to admit i also hate the sf's ult. it basically disable ur whole tank
but if u guys make it deals dp instead of disabling weapons, wouldnt that make it a normal stun?