Weapons in BT

[DerSatan]

Hello guys.


i had some free time today and made a statistic, comparing all weapons in BT regarding their range and their costs. You can see what ive done on the picture below.


how to read this table:

-each weapon is included
-numbers in brackets count the weapons which do not have a "normal" fire modus
-weapons, where the range can be upgraded are listed twice (no upgrade and with upgrade)
example: infernal rocks are listed for ~8000 cost and range 750, and as ~11000 cost and range 1050
-i have not included upgraded weapons which dont change their range, but become a higher price class weapon. was too lazy



what does it tell us

not anything really new, but it might be interesting. for example, it shows that there is no short range weapon above the flame thrower/short laser. of course, some people declare 750 as short range too, its a matter of taste. i dont.

and there's my suggestion: give us a short range weapon between 10k and 20k gold. there are some possibilities for that, for example lowering the range of the darkness cannon/blaster cannon (adjusting the dps). there are too many "standard" range weapons over 10k gold anyway.


yeah thats it, feel free to discuss my suggestion/other things about that table.

[Althend]

And there is no low range weapon of 1000-2000 gold ^^

[horselance]

There are 2 weapons over 10k which is 750-899. I agree with Satan that 750 is not low range weapon. And when i give that much money to a weapon i expect "high damage- low range" or "high range"...

But 750 or 850 range dont serve any purpose here IMO... We dont see Blaster Cannon too much in game (sometimes i buy for fun

[horselance]

This can be another topic but its name would be "Weapons in BT" too:)

Anyone agree with me that weapons are weak vs tanks? I mean their cost and job is out of balance?
Ppl mostly play with 1 fireball cannon + wait + Heavy Tank. And it is very boring to play HT+fireball vs HT+fireball... For at least 10 min... Until 1 buys weapon...

And it is not possible to buy hulls before tanks anymore (i dont know what is changed in game but it is so now...)
In older games balanced tanks would be better vs imba tanks (good weapon-bad tank or inverse). Mid HP-Mid Damage was best...

Now it is impossible to get near a "15k Infernal" with "8k Sky tank+7k Weapon(any)"

2 days ago i had a game that we were surely losing the game until mid and i was getting pawned with a good weaponed Sky tank. My frags was half of the guy. And i had only 2 icecannon+2k start weapon and sky tank too. And that guy got 2 long laser + photon cannon(upgrade). And there was an infernal in their team. but when i got a titan with my summed money: game changed its way. and after that was pawnage. I had no weapon and my tank's cost was maybe near half of that guys tank cost, but i was easily killing him...

To get this clear i ask you: who preffers a "Psycho laser + Hell tank" to "Titan + Psycho wave"? I preffer Titan, because itself is a weapon also... And the HP is free... So why should i bother with Hulls or weapons?

IMO weapons are getting useless in every version... And tanks seems to get stronger.

There must be a balance fix to weapons.. or tanks... Probably tanks...

[Exodus]

Yeah, I noticed that too. But the last time the weapons got really changed was in 8.00 and aside from balancing the tanks didnt change either. So the tanks have always been better.

There are several ways how you could change this, the Tech-Requirements for the most expensive tanks is one of them. Other possibilities are:

• making the tanks more expensive (I dont think this will really help, since they are just as strong as they are now)
  
• making their abilities weaker (that happened already once and caused a lot of whining, also slows the game down)
  
• reduce the HP of the tanks (the most valuable option in my opinion)

[q[o.0]p]

Yeah, I noticed that too. But the last time the weapons got really changed was in 8.00 and aside from balancing the tanks didnt change either. So the tanks have always been better.

There are several ways how you could change this, the Tech-Requirements for the most expensive tanks is one of them. Other possibilities are:

• making the tanks more expensive (I dont think this will really help, since they are just as strong as they are now)
  
• making their abilities weaker (that happened already once and caused a lot of whining, also slows the game down)
  
• reduce the HP of the tanks (the most valuable option in my opinion)

pff reducing the lp is deadly...
well the bigger ones ok
but heli and so on
reducing their lifepoint will make them creepkills...


reducing the streng of abilitys is a good thing i guess

[TKF]

• The light tank vs the heavy tank.
  
  
  Light Tank worth 8475 has 2660 hp with 410 dps + tank cannon 180 = 590 (2 fireball cannons + 1 upgraded hull)
  Heavy Tank worth 8400 has 6380 hp with 205 dps + tank cannon 180 = 385 (1 fireball cannon)
  
  
  Lets make a cold 1on1 combat simuation. (I didn't bother to calculate regen)
  
  5 sec.... (no abilities used)
  
  2660 hp light tank have 735 hp left
  
  6380 hp heavy tank have 3430 hp left
  ...
  about 2-3 sec later
  
  Light tank pwned!
  

Both tanks has same value, but having more hp is much better than having more firepower. More expensive tank gives more for the money than just a linearly balanced weapons. Also the heavy tanks is stronger compared to the light tank.

This shows a simple example that shows better tanks gives more for the money than weapons do.

___________________




A tough tank is also harder to kill. Also in addition, each level gives the tank 2% more max hp, so they grow exponentially stronger at a high rate this way.


Is there an option of increasing expensive tanks bounty exponentially as a solution?
Otherwise reducing tanks hp is a good option.
Increasing all weapons damage will still make the small tanks the losers
Reducing the strength of abilities might be bad a solution


But weapons are linearly balanced -> Price = dps * 15 / (range/1000)

Tanks are exponentially balanced -> Even stronger tank gets even better


So balancing this would be interesting. An counter exponentially hp decrease would be interesting. I think the tank hp reduction is the best solution.

[Prog]

I'm not sure if its really necessery to change the hp-weapon damage balance. Its just normal that somehow a tank-weapon gold-ratio is better, regardless if the ratio is way ahead for tank or for weapons (Its somehow a part of strategy to be stronger with the same amount of gold, isn't it?). Its true that nowaday its more tank based in midgame, but why not? I don't see anything bad in this and i wouldn't create the need of rebalancing everything (currently its really well balanced) just to change the general style of play.

[horselance]

2% HP increase makes it this way i think. Because the difference between a Light tank-Heavy tank is not 4500 at all. In level 11 it is near 5500. And grows larger with every lvl.

Maybe only removing 2% per level hp is enough?

And Light Tank/Hellicopter has more HP/gold cost according to any other tank... It also most profitable tank of all

[Exodus]

2% HP increase makes it this way i think. Because the difference between a Light tank-Heavy tank is not 4500 at all. In level 11 it is near 5500. And grows larger with every lvl.

Maybe only removing 2% per level hp is enough?

Hm, I also thought about that after reading TKF's post. The increasing HP are like an old artifact from older BT-Versions and were just introduced to make up for an ability that was removed from every tank.

[DerSatan]

@ Prog:

i think its really boring sometimes.

buying a heavy tank with your 2 basic magic, then go for swarm rockets, but before you even upgrade them go for the infernal. thats a really strong strategy, but its just boring.





i suggested some time before to remove the HP the tanks get for their levels.

better tank > better weapons, and
better tank > hull

also better tanks have better abilities. why do they get pushed even further?

a level 20 infernal gets 6000 HP for free. in hulls, they are worth 7500 gold!
and: infernal would still be strong without these free HP (considering the heavy tank he is playing against has 2200 HP less, too). cheaper base hp than hulls and stronger abilities are enough to give the edge.




edit: nice exodus, i would love to have this free HP removed.

[Exodus]

Ok, I'll start a new thread for that and add a poll.

[TKF]

Lol, first now I read the first post. This topic REALLY went a bit offtopic, but talking about weapons ranges variations for different price classes -> changed into talk about weapons value compared to tank value and made exo made a poll about removing the 2% hp level boost for tanks.

I had another idea in mind if the 2% hp system wouldn't be removed

Tinker, exploder, Light tank and heli = Same
Anti Grav 1500 hp > 1450hp
demo 2000 hp > 1900hp
Shredder 3000 hp > 2800hp
Lighning Tank 4000 hp > 3600 hp
Ghost Tank 4500 hp > 4000 hp
Airship 3600 hp > 3200 hp
Guard 5000 hp > 4300 hp
Heavy Tank 5500 hp > 4700 hp
Goblin Tank 6000 hp > 5100 hp
Sky Tank 6500 hp > 5700 hp
Demon Tank 10000 hp > 8000 hp
Frost Robot 13000 hp > 10000 hp
Infernal 15000 hp > 11000 hp
Titan 25000 hp > 16000 hp

But this idea almost makes the tank value (with abilities strength considered) Almost linear.

But 2% hp increase pr level, might be better to remove.

[Bob666]

i didnt read everything

but i personally prefer a light tank with a second weapon, or a hull and then a second weapon...

for that calculation on a 1on1 battle, the light tank has the chance to evade, because the weapons of the heavy tank fire very slowly
normally both have creeps around themselves, and attacking without creeps is senseless anyways... and if you have a good amount of creeps near your light tank, a heavy tank will not even hit you with his weapons... you cant beat him either because of his hp, but you kill more creeps

but if there are really so much heavy tanks, it would be better if something is changed SLIGHTLY

[Dr.Urinal]

I play alot of btanks, maybe 8-10 games daily. I know alot about weapons and tanks now, and the thing I have seen that really makes bigger tanks good is, simply, teleporter. The weapons in the game are sometimes good for their cost, but the teleporter makes the difference. I have played many games where I was in the clear victory, takeing sides, getting the most kills, and playing antigrav, which I use effecivily. What surprised me and ultimately made me regret playing this game was the teleporter and a heavy tank. A heavy tank with say a fan of knives has 6k hp, and at lvl 10, does 3k dmg with spells alone. Then their wpns could finish you off. As the tanks lvls, it's dmg increases an insane amount. So the heavy tank gets teleporter, teles to you while you are farming or fighting someone, uses abilites and kills you, even when your around creeps, the ultimate kills all creeps around you, and the stun attack will finsh you off. So It's pointless to say that the a light tank with low hp, around 3000 will survive against a heavy tank. You can't play skillfully if they have a teleporter. And it's a waste of gold to buy tele breakers when you could be as close or as far as their base or a cp. The teleporters range needs to be nerfed and that is the only way to balance the game imo.

[SirJoghurt]

first.. in your opinion a HT always gets Teleporter...

there are many Players out there which dont ^^ like me^^

second, it doesnt matter which tank gets one, Goblin with one is also bitchy.. if you dont watch out.. he gets you..same with other Tanks..

btw. Teleportbreaker is nice, but i only use it for exploders

[DerSatan]

@ Urinal:

could you please stay in teleporter topics? you told the same in another post, theres no reason to reply an anti-teleporter-whining post in every (4 so far) thread. thank you.

[Tank-]

there shoudl be a way you can track weapons beign used and remake the ones people never pick....

[horselance]

I play a lot games and can make an experiancal statistic of which weapons are less preffered or never used.
With cost priorty:
-Glaive Cannon
-Machinegun*
-Rock Catapult**
-Magic Cannon
-Soulstone*
-Artillery*
-Plazma Fragments*
-Frost Magic**
-Burning Projectiles**
-Ion Cannon
-Death Magic
-Infernal Rocks
-Blaster Cannon**
-Acid Cannon**
( * too rare)
( ** never)
These are weapons which i rarely see in games. I comment negative sides of these weapons here. Possible cause of rare usages are something like that (IMO):

-Glaive Cannon: Less range than other same cost weapons. And at startup short range weapons are not preffered because of creep contact and vulnerabilty to creeps.

-Machinegun: Same reason as Glaive. But also it has an unfair upgrade cost-damage. It has 48 damage but upgrade is counted as 45 damage... (20% > 9)

-Rock Catapult: 2sec cooldow is too much. It makes that weapon useless vs creeps.

-Magic Cannon: 777 Range is too bad. Not close combat purposed like Ice Cannon or not as good range variant Rocket Launcher...

-Soulstone: This weapons mod is different from other mod weapons. You mostly fight Tanks in creeps. And it dont have a Normal mode.

-Artillery: Another slow weapon.

-Plazma Fragment: Mod wepons dont have upgrades. That makes them less profitable in later games. When you buy a Light Fantastic with same cost, you upgrade it 4500 and have a 10500 wepon later. But when you buy Plazma Fragment you get only a 6k weapon in your inventory...

-Frost Magic: Well paying that much money is a waste of money for 6k. Assume you have a multibow+rocket and a HT. Would you preffer this weapon? While your enemy gets a Lightning Magic with same cost > will hit you deeply but your only damage source is a Rocket Launcher... In that minute of game players already kill creeps easily with abilities and powerful weapons. And 6k is the cost of a powerful weapon...

-Burning Projectiles: Another too slow weapon but also this money range is under Laser-Flamer-Light Fantastic control.

-Ion Cannon: Same reason with Burning Projectiles.

-Death Magic: Same reason with up. But also this weapon has too little DpS. Its range is not necessary while it cant cause a deadly damage.. Teleport tactics make these weapons useless. But also Hero-only attack lowers your creep bounties..

-Infernal Rocks: Same as up. And also slow..

-Blaster Cannon: its range is between a close combat and normal range. But neither a close combat weapon or a decent range weapon. Also weak upgrade...

-Acid Cannon: It is an expensive tactic. Ppl mostly fill inventory slots with lasers and flamers and an 12k weapon is already in their inventory when upgraded. Summing up 12k without other good weapon is very hard...

So to sum up reasons: weapons between 850-600 range are not preffered because to use these weapons, you must get very near the enemy but if enemy has 600 range weapon it is impossible to avoid its daamge. 600 range weapons get the dps advantage this way.

Mod weapons are not preffered because they dont have upgrades and people are lazy to change weapon mods i think I use artillery but I dont remember when I last see an enemy with artillery...

Weapons near 7k is under shadows of Laser-Flamer-Light Fantastic. Laser has the best upgrade 7k>12. Light Fantastic also have a good upgrade 6000>10500 and Flamer has the best dps until Blaster but cost only 6750.

And slow weapons are not preffered because creeping is also so important. But i like Infernal Rocks:)

tnx for patience:)

Edit:

This is a statistic of my gaming experience. I only generelized last 5-6 versions. So about 100-150 game. I maybe played more than 2-3k games and seen all weapons preffered in some versions due to tactics(except Frost magic:). But this is only 5-6 versions long. Lets say after v8.35.

[riC]

When I'm playing low range, i often buy Blaster Cannon. And Deathmagic and Artillery aren't used too rare imo.