What's worse - flame or killing team mates?

[progg]

I create this post regarding to the ban i got.
To be clear - i fully agree with ban for me. I flamed hard, i deserved this ban.
But what i don't understand is that masterkiller wasn't banned.
I flamed him. In response he ultied me with hunter so i die. Or ultied me in situation when i was close to kill so i can't get the kill. Pure team and game sabotage.
Tez.Sick claims that flaming is worse than team killing.

I wonder what is your opinion guys. Not only about this game, but in general.


P.S. For people bored enought to watch the replay - i attach it;)

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Also some quote of TKF in this thread: http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=368

League Game behavior guidelines rules:
[...]
NO CONTINUOUS FEEDING
NO AFKING SEVERAL TIMES ON PURPOSE
NO EXCESSIVE/CONTINUOUS FLAMING
NO SABOTAGING ON PURPOSE
NO TEAMKILLING ON PURPOSE
NO REPEATING IDIOT BEHAVIOR
KICKING A TEAMPLAYER ON PURPOSE FOR PENALTY POINTS PUNISHMENT
BLOCKING ALL FORCE CREEPS INSIDE YOUR OWN BASE
NO SELLING AND BUYING ITEMS/TANKS TO WRECK YOUR ECONOMY ON PURPOSE

Me: break the rule/guideline - NO EXCESSIVE FLAMING

Masterkiller : NO EXCESSIVE FLAMING (go fuck your mom), NO SABOTING ON PURPOSE, NO TEAMKILLING ON PURPOSE (i understand teammate hunter ulti so u can't run as a non directly teamkill), NO REPEATING IDIOT BEHAVIOR (he ultied me many times).

Only i got banned:D

[UnifiedDoom]

I think I can really summarize the difference (based on what i've seen) in two words: Justifiable Provocation.

Honestly progg you have a very bad habit of giving unwanted advice. I don't know about how it is in your country, but really any time you tell an American to do something (at least in the condesending tone which you use) it is considered offensive and insulting. Now maybe this is true for me only, but I think if you tell anyone to do something 4 or 5 times they'll get annoyed. If you really feel like helping people (honestly that doesn't seem like the case from the chat log, you just seem to compulsively give orders) then you should really do it a bit more gentlely rather than starting by insulting their play, like not using "omg you're such a bad hunter, how can you not have tp?" to maybe "you know it'll really be helpful to our team if you buy tp" There's a world of difference beetween those 2 statements, at least in my opinion.

Anyway so this kind of "advice" along with your flame, is the provocation for Masterkiller doing what he did. Was it justified? according to Tez (whose awnser I agree with) the awnser is yes.

Conversely you flamed and the provocation was supposedly "bad play." It's already been established that having a "bad" teammate isn't a good enough excuse to start flaming.

[RaptorXI]

I just think you should stop playing for a while (playing with or against u was nicer and more fun).

[progg]

Guys this is not about me. And i said already i fully deserve the ban.

The questions are:
1. Do you prefer to have a flamer in team (for example me) or a guy who kills you on purpose.
2. In this particular case do masterkiller also deserves a ban?
Imo if everyone would start to kill each other for flaming then the bomb would be the most popular item in the game.

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Also voting in poll would be appriciated.

[UnifiedDoom]

It's not that simple, masterkiller21 had a very good reason for holding a grudge against you that game. It's not like he randomly decided to a team sabotage because it would be funny or you weren't flaming then of course he would deserve a ban.

Making one offense a "preference" over another is irrelevant, both are bannable offenses under the right circumstances. If masterkiller flamed you back for what you did that game I still think he wouldn't deserve a ban. Such a precedent wouldn't create a "world of bomb-teamkilling chaos" as you describe not many people in league provoke people as hard as you do. Plus the things that you described him doing did not effect the team as a whole (like bombing the factories in the base would), but rather only you (which indirectly weakens the team since you are a member of it yes but 1-2 kills is not the same), so there's a magnitude difference in his "crime" as well.

[progg]

So you're saying that if two players have a "fight" one of them can sabotage whole team and it's justified? (killing 1 teammate is an action versus whole team, not only 1 player) And ultiing a teammate so he can't kill, so actually - helping an opponent to survive (!) is also justified?

[UnifiedDoom]

Flaming is team sabotage in it's own right. It distracts and annoys more than just the player being flamed. In reality you shouldn't provoke people to commit crimes and then report them when they do, that's the kind of thing children on the playground do. 1-2 free kills may be team sabotage to a degree (it's really very small I could easily just make 2 judgement mistakes and feed the enemy the same amount of the money). I haven't seen the replay but I have a feeling your team was going to lose long before he did any of this anyway. Looking at the chat log alone I'd say you did a lot more "team sabotaging" than master did.

[progg]

Doom i know what is flaming and i've said i deserve a ban. Can u stop avoiding anwsers to my questions?

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And - LOL, you didn't see the replay but you say masterkiller is justified So now it's perfectly clear that all you write is driven but personal prejudice.

[UnifiedDoom]

Doom i know what is flaming and i've said i deserve a ban. Can u stop avoiding anwsers to my questions?

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And - LOL, you didn't see the replay but you say masterkiller is justified So now it's perfectly clear that all you write is driven but personal prejudice.

This has nothing to do with personal preference, I'm simply saying what I think on the matter. I read the chat log tez posted in the ban request and made the judgement that what master did was justified. You already described all of the "team sabotaging" he did, so watching the replay seems redundant. I also already said that the magnitude of master's team sabotage doesn't really seem ban worthy (many players have done far worse and escaped with only warnings).

[progg]

So it's actually like criticizing a book without reading it but checking what other people said about it.

[UnifiedDoom]

So it's actually like criticizing a book without reading it but checking what other people said about it.

The chat log is fact, there's no reason to deny that. However if there's reason to believe that your own accounts of master's team sabotage against you are unreliable (and if they are, human nature would naturally make them would fall on the side of being more extreme than they actually are) then perhaps I have drawn a premature conclusion. But judging on which bias you would hold if you were mistaken I don't think that's the case.

[progg]

Doom, watch rep first. You talk about your feelings, scraps of informations, and believings. I talk about facts (and how i see them).

[UnifiedDoom]

Well I saw the replay and my opinion hasn't changed. I'll admit I missed the first time you claimed he ulti'd you on purpose due to fast-forward, but the other two times could easily be accidents, especially considering how off-target he was with it all game. The remark about "always hitting you" was just a reponse to you continuously bothering him about doing that exact thing. You both even managed to kill the guy anyway that time so what's the problem?

"Kono: No dc lost me"

Konors recognizes why his team lost, why can't you?

[progg]

Well I saw the replay and my opinion hasn't changed. I'll admit I missed the first time you claimed he ulti'd you on purpose due to fast-forward, but the other two times could easily be accidents, especially considering how off-target he was with it all game.

Even when he said he did it and he will do it again?

The remark about "always hitting you" was just a reponse to you continuously bothering him about doing that exact thing. You both even managed to kill the guy anyway that time so what's the problem?

We both? he ultied me on purpose and he confirmed this by typing it.

"Kono: No dc lost me"

Konors recognizes why his team lost, why can't you?

I won't anwser this question couse it's not loyal. In law questions like this are called not loyal.
Other example of not loyal question is like asking "doom, why do you keep fucking your sister?"
Any nawser would confirm false argument contained in this question.

What are you trying to prove so incompetently?

[Teo_live]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD TAKE A SMOKE BREAK UNIFIEDDOOM!!! Spamming everyone who you disagree with just makes you look desperate (and fearful of being incorrect). Say your shit once or twice then gtfo for a little while....

Ahum, now that I have that little cough out my chest...

Progg I just don't understand you. Every game I have with you is filled with your complaints, flaming, bullying, bossing and blaming everyone but yourself. Why do you always do this? Part of being good at battletanks is integrating with your team, this includes people who's playstyles you don't like. I watched that painful replay, you wouldn't stop harrasing masterkiller. Most people who throw mass-ban-attempts are the ones who deserve the ban themselves, seems your no exception to this.

Even though you flame the crap out of me and even tried to ban me I have nothing against you progg. When your week wait ends I will support your unban attempt if you choose to make one. Till then I think you NEED at least a week break from battletanks to cool off... and I hope next time I see you in Btanks you will be abit more open-minded...

[progg]

Teo, yes i flame a lot. Not every game, but definatally too much. I also have nothing against you. Actually i'm a kind of guy who can flame you to death in one game and in next game i traet you like it never happened (there are 3 exception guys). Even eSVau with whom i had a biggest fight here is a guy with i can talk normally in game and i even like to play with him couse he's usually very good tree.
There's also other kind of people - who don't forget. Flame they once and they will hate you forever.
When i came back to bt after 3 months break i didn't flame. This is the reason why i made to accounts near to 1600 elo. And on one account that most ppl doesn't know it's me i rarely drop below 1550. On others - i rearly go above 1550. This shows greatly that flaming is also team saboting and i understand that, and yes i say it one more time - i fully deserved my ban in this game.
But the question is: did masterkiller also deserve it?

[El_Polacco]

polacco always try to votekick someone if there is a chance to kick Huh
polacco always blame his team for every mistakes
polacco always expect help if he can't hold lane,even if he lost his lane >>> its not his fault
polacco always expect early armor upgrades,even his team will spend/waste all their gold for upgrades + if he don't get it he always start to cry

His behavior is like heavy game sabotage

bitch please guys it's just a game even though that opinion had hurt my feelings ...

[UnifiedDoom]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD TAKE A SMOKE BREAK UNIFIEDDOOM!!! Spamming everyone who you disagree with just makes you look desperate (and fearful of being incorrect). Say your shit once or twice then gtfo for a little while....

Perhaps you didn't notice during this thread, but every post of progg towards me was a question. I was simply awnsering his questions. If someone's going to try to criticize my arguements or promote something I disagree with I will respond to it. If you don't like this then clearly you don't know what a forum is, and these kind of personal insults are off-topic and don't even belong here.

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Even when he said he did it and he will do it again?

Except that he didn't do it again after saying it. He spent the rest of the time defending your base against mortars.

We both? he ultied me on purpose and he confirmed this by typing it.

Yeah but that one could've easily been seen as him trying to ulti on light blue. What I'm saying is him saying "yeah I ulti you every time" or something to that effect, was just a sarcastic response to you contiuously telling him "omg you ulti on me every time"

[quote='progg' pid='36063' dateline='1347083305'
I won't anwser this question couse it's not loyal. In law questions like this are called not loyal.
Other example of not loyal question is like asking "doom, why do you keep fucking your sister?"
Any nawser would confirm false argument contained in this question.

What are you trying to prove so incompetently?
[/quote]

Actually team sabotage would imply that you LOST because of his (teal's) direct actions against your team. Even though all evidence and and testimony points to losing (for the most part) because purple dropped and it was a 4v5.

[progg]

Even when he said he did it and he will do it again?

Except that he didn't do it again after saying it. He spent the rest of the time defending your base against mortars.

Ofc he did.

We both? he ultied me on purpose and he confirmed this by typing it.

Yeah but that one could've easily been seen as him trying to ulti on light blue. What I'm saying is him saying "yeah I ulti you every time" or something to that effect, was just a sarcastic response to you contiuously telling him "omg you ulti on me every time"

Lol u starting to deny the obvious thing

Actually team sabotage would imply that you LOST because of his (teal's) direct actions against your team. Even though all evidence and and testimony points to losing (for the most part) because purple dropped and it was a 4v5.

[/quote]

Now show me where i wrote something different:D

[UnifiedDoom]

What I'm trying to say is that if master did actually commit team sabotage to the point where it would be bannable, then it would've been the primary reason your team lost. Not some secondary add-on to the fact that purple dropped.