First of all nice, with a fast response
I hope more players will join this discussion because I think it's a very important topic.
Before answering i want to get 1 thing straight when you say
(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ]I guess you get this from your own feeling of the games you play, but not the facts that you stated here, since they seem to base on false assumptions.
Yes I said my calculations would be wrong (note the last comment of the post). Since I only knew the boundaries, and not how the bounty scale(5% obv) it wasnt possible for me to make exact estimations which i also pointed out.
I still think it gave an idea of my point though.
(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ]So you are saying, that the new system is too forgiving for player mistakes?
Yes I do. Unless they missplay heavily and lose a CP I find it impossible to gain a real egde now. The answer for this you actually wrote yourself
(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ] Bascially, your own bounty increases everytime you receive gold, except from the passive income, force gold or selling items.
The only way of getting an egde (gold without getting a disadvantage), is to:
a) increase your passive income (leaver, dc, kick)
b) forcegold, which as far as I know only can be done by taking or destroying a cp (correct me if im wrong)
Since spawn times early and midgame wise are so short, this would mean enemy team has to make a huge missplay by either.
a) get obliterated completely
b) getting caught heavily out of position
Which against a decent team just isnt possible
(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ]What I wanted to show you with my example was the following: in a normal situation, an average player should have about the same bounty as before. Better players will have a higher bounty and others will have a lower one.
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This is where the main problem lies in my opinion and maybe I'm the only one.
What you do here is an effort to balance the games. You forget that the games are already balanced somewhat with elo already.
This creates a very bad scenario for high elo players since they already get the "worse" team
AND The new system also works against them?
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(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ]Just to give you an idea on how high these differences are, I showed an example of the old bounty (the 262 gold) and the minimum bounty a tank with the new system could have, with the same tank worth (the 225 gold). With the new system, you can't go below 225 gold, after dying several times. This miminum bounty obviously increases as you get better items / tanks. The same is true for the upper limit, with the difference that this limit is farther away from the old bounty, meaning that players with such bounty are far more lucrative targets as they were before.
I understood all this, but as I pointed out i couldnt make these calculations without knowing the scaling and made a very simplified example.
(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ]Taking your example and assuming everybody really starts with 262 gold, it would actually play out like this:
player 1 kills player 6 (+262g)
player 2 kills player 7 (+262g)
player 3 kills player 8 (+262g)
The bounties of the players 1, 2 and 3 now increases by 5% of the gained bounty, so by 13 gold. Their new bounty is 275g
The bounties of the players 6, 7 and 8 decrease by 12%, so they now have a bounty of 231g, just above the limit of the 225g.
player 1 kills player 6 (+231g)
player 2 kills player 7 (+231g)
player 3 kills player 8 (+231g)
The bounties of the players 1, 2 and 3 now increases by 5% of the gained bounty again, this time by 12 gold. Their new bounty is 287g
Net gold kill: 1479g
I guess you substracted the bounty of the dark force players next, right?
In that case you would have:
1479 - 3*287 = 618g
As you can see, this number is about 3 times as high, as you calculated and not at all out of proportions. Just to see how it would turn out, lets see what it would look like if everyone from the dark force would die again:
After their first death, they'll now would have a bounty of 253g.
1479 - 3*287 - 3*253 = -141g
As you would expect with this new system, the light force would come out on top, by about 140g. This is an advantage of 47 gold per tank, so about two creep kills
Great Example and nice explanation
I'm very curious about what a underlined in your post. Can you explain why the difference between the increase and decrease is so huge.
Now let me extend it even further to show my point on how the gold will balance out resulting in any early/midgame egdes mostly are lost.
player 1 kills player 6 (+262g)
player 2 kills player 7 (+262g)
player 3 kills player 8 (+262g)
The bounties of the players 1, 2 and 3 now increases by 5% of the gained bounty, so by 13 gold. Their new bounty is
275g
The bounties of the players 6, 7 and 8 decrease by 12%, so they now have a bounty of
231g, just above the limit of the 225g.
Lets assume this happens 6 times
262x3+231x3+225x3+225x3+225x3+225x3 = 3504g
Teams 1's new bounty should now be:
262x0.05+231x0.05+225x0.05+225x0.05 = 13.1+11.55+11.25+11.25+11.25+11.25 = 69.65
Original bounty + added bounty = new bounty
262 + 70 = 332
Now Team 2 kill team 1 half the amount 3 times.
Bounties decreases
after first death
332x0.12 = 39.94
332-40=292
after second death
292x0.12 = 35.04
292-35=257
332x3+292x3+257x3 = 2643g
3504 - 2640 = 861
this is without taking assist into account since I can't find any formula and forgot how much % it is. But I assume it should be close to 1000g when added assist
Team 1 12 Kills
Team 2 6 Kills
Compared to old system
where it should be 3504:2 = 1752g
+ double amount of assists which I assume make it close to 2000g
Difference without assists
1752-861 = 891
With assist (
Roughly guess)
2000-1000 = 1000
Regardless whether my guess is wrong or not compared to old system you gain around half the egde you originally would (in this scenario).
(2014-05-16, 13:50:11)Exodus Wrote: [ -> ]Just to be clear again, I didn't show you this to tell you, that the system works perfectly as it is right now. I just wanted to make sure, that everyone actually understands how it works correctly, so people don't start making false assumptions.
I know this
.
I'm only here to discuss, give feedback and maybe from the POV of an higher elo player since they are too lazy to post
This post is most likely full of flaws since it's so long i don't bother check