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+--- Thread: Hail of bombs imbalanced (/showthread.php?tid=738)
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - eSVau - 2010-02-07
nvm
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - lyf590 - 2010-02-07
2 words: fly sidewayys!!
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - horselance - 2010-02-07
:( Airship is the worst example to be hit by 3-4 hits. Most mobile midgame tank will never be hit even 1 bomb (unless rocketed twice or demon or frost)... It is easy to avoid because it has casting and accelerating delays.
:wink: It was better to give Thunder Tank as example. Because it dont have the mobility, and mostly will be unlucky with creep-block and HT will be a big pain for thunder i must admit..
:!: As it has big damage potential, it lacks a lot of tactical disadvantages. Old HT could tp-stun-sweep creeps and make better ambushes. Now its really hard to make an ambush with tp-stun-ulti because you may hit enemy but wont sweep creeps. Its really hard to keep your ulti for a cp capture as enemy can tp behind you and until you turn and cast and damage enemy, you will be dead mostly...
Shortly it has vulnerability from back, keep attacking it from back, when ambush, keep tp to HT's back always, dont stay in corridors and creep blocks etc etc.. You will notice the difference..
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Exodus - 2010-02-07
As I said earlier, when I designed this skill, I only wanted to have 1 to 2 hits with clusters and not 3 or even 4. As you can see in the picture, it's not that unlikely to get hit by 3 clusters when standing right in the middle of one of the middle circles.
Although some of our fellow forum members strongly defend the current ultimate, I'd say that it wouldn't hurt to tone this skill down a bit. I suggest to reduce the target area of each cluster from 400 to 375 or 350. This way, the chance to get hit by multiple clusters decreases, while keeping the damage potential of the skill.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - khEg - 2010-02-07
sounds reasonable to me
and just to make this clear ^^ i didnt want to make this skill useless or "noob friendly"
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - eSVau - 2010-02-07
lyf590 Wrote:2 words: fly sidewayys!!
Again a nice picture
[attachment=0]What so see on this picture:
- 400 area circles of each cluster
- time indices of each single cluster (asumed 0.2 seconds per cluster)
- solid boundary of a blue circle whichs marks the movement area of a tank with 300 speed within a single second
- blue dashed inner circle whichs marks the movement area of a tank with 300 speed within 0.4 seconds
- red rectangle I would use as target area for a combo*
And yes, i'm still talking about combo because that combo is a way to asure a multiple hit. I would use a combo of aiming rocket + hail of bombs within the red marked area.
As a result of the aiming rocket my target tank would be stunned an the center line. At lvl 10 i can spend 4 points into aiming rocket, which means 1.2seconds stun. I asume a delay of one second between both skills.
Now, after stunning plus my asumed second delay between skills, i would hit my target after 1.4 till 1.6 seconds, that means 0.4 seconds to move around, which i have marked as blue dashed innner circle.
Yeah, it's a huge area not to be hit more than once</ironic> which criticise: multiple hits AND A COMBO ASURES MULTIPLE HITS SO YES I'M TALKING ABOUT A F*CKING COMBO
edit: removed unnecessary notes
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Prog - 2010-02-07
eSVau Wrote:lyf590 Wrote:2 words: fly sidewayys!!
Again a nice picture
What so see on this picture:
- 400 area circles of each cluster
- time indices of each single cluster (asumed 0.2 seconds per cluster)
- solid boundary of a blue circle whichs marks the movement area of a tank with 300 speed within a single second
- blue dashed inner circle whichs marks the movement area of a tank with 300 speed within 0.4 seconds
- red rectangle I would use as target area for a combo*
And yes, i'm still talking about combo because that combo is a way to asure a multiple hit. I would use a combo of aiming rocket + hail of bombs within the red marked area.
As a result of the aiming rocket my target tank would be stunned an the center line. At lvl 10 i can spend 4 points into aiming rocket, which means 1.2seconds stun. I asume a delay of one second between both skills.
Now, after stunning plus my asumed second delay between skills, i would hit my target after 1.4 till 1.6 seconds, that means 0.4 seconds to move around, which i have marked as blue dashed innner circle.
Yeah, it's a huge area not to be hit more than once</ironic> which criticise: multiple hits AND A COMBO ASURES MULTIPLE HITS SO YES I'M TALKING ABOUT A F*CKING COMBO
Now, i'm out - talking to a wall :lol:
1. Your 0.2 seconds per cluster are just wrong, I'm sure mappers can falsify that statement of yours. Even the first hit doesn't happen at 0 seconds (which is so obvious to see when you use it).
2. "As a result of the aiming rocket my target tank would be stunned an the center line" is just wrong. If you shoot rocket first: You completly forget about the time the rocket needs to get to the target. You lock the target for the ultimate to x,y by shooting the rocket at t, but when the rocket hits at t+n the target is allready at x+n,y+n. Just this position difference is enough to dodge any double hit in most cases as the rocket needs at least ~0.5 seconds to arrive at 1000 range (on lan).
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Exodus - 2010-02-07
Well, I looked into the code and the time difference there is 0.1 seconds. But I don't know, if the function can work with such a low time span. It might be possible, that the time difference is 0.25 seconds or something in between.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - eSVau - 2010-02-07
Prog Wrote:1. Your 0.2 seconds per cluster are just wrong, I'm sure mappers can falsify that statement of yours. Even the first hit doesn't happen at 0 seconds (which is so obvious to see when you use it).
2. "As a result of the aiming rocket my target tank would be stunned an the center line" is just wrong. If you shoot rocket first: You completly forget about the time the rocket needs to get to the target. You lock the target for the ultimate to x,y by shooting the rocket at t, but when the rocket hits at t+n the target is allready at x+n,y+n. Just this position difference is enough to dodge any double hit in most cases as the rocket needs at least ~0.5 seconds to arrive at 1000 range (on lan).
at 1: i've said it's an asumption: that means i dont know for sure, second part i have included to my asumption a delay of one second: keywords: asumption, delay
at 2: how long does a rocket need to hit, for sure less than one second, and a second would be the blue solid circle, a half would be less. It's of course impossible to anticipate your opponents directions and rotate yourself to minimize the variation...
edit: removed unnecessary notes
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - GooglyBoogly - 2010-02-08
Exodus Wrote:As I said earlier, when I designed this skill, I only wanted to have 1 to 2 hits with clusters and not 3 or even 4. As you can see in the picture, it's not that unlikely to get hit by 3 clusters when standing right in the middle of one of the middle circles.
Although some of our fellow forum members strongly defend the current ultimate, I'd say that it wouldn't hurt to tone this skill down a bit. I suggest to reduce the target area of each cluster from 400 to 375 or 350. This way, the chance to get hit by multiple clusters decreases, while keeping the damage potential of the skill.
+1
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - muhaha96 - 2010-02-08
but what you forgot is that units have a size so you don´t have to hit just the center of it.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - jonjon - 2010-02-08
No it's not. Either tele behind them, fly sideways or move slightly forward. Either way you can minimise damage and still be able to kill them. At level 10, imagine 1 cluster from Heavy Tank doing 800 HP damage and compare that to Thunder also with a level 10 doing 800 HP and instant. Given that thought, heavy tank isn't so strong after all. It's just you running away and getting hit with more clusters.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Prog - 2010-02-08
eSVau Wrote:Prog Wrote:1. Your 0.2 seconds per cluster are just wrong, I'm sure mappers can falsify that statement of yours. Even the first hit doesn't happen at 0 seconds (which is so obvious to see when you use it).
2. "As a result of the aiming rocket my target tank would be stunned an the center line" is just wrong. If you shoot rocket first: You completly forget about the time the rocket needs to get to the target. You lock the target for the ultimate to x,y by shooting the rocket at t, but when the rocket hits at t+n the target is allready at x+n,y+n. Just this position difference is enough to dodge any double hit in most cases as the rocket needs at least ~0.5 seconds to arrive at 1000 range (on lan).
at 1: i've said it's an asumption: that means i dont know for sure, but thanks you are telling me, that i'm wrong, second part i have included to my asumption a delay of one second: keywords: asumption, delay
at 2: how long does a rocket need to hit, for sure less than one second, and a second would be the blue solid circle, a half would be less. It's of course impossible to anticipate your opponents directions and rotate yourself to minimize the variation...
and yes, i'm wrong - no need to tell me every single time
ad 1: I've said your assumption is not correct. I don't see anything contradicting in saying your assumption is not correct and your statement "it's an assumption" - so what?
ad 2. You didn't notice that it's the time you have until the rocket hits + (the time until the ultimate hits - stunned time) to escape.
Nevertheless I did a huge mistake and thought somehow (was misled by the English language mostly) the diameter was 400, not the radius, messing with my math from before, making the necessary distance to move for single/no damage higher, but in every position it's still possible to get single damage within max. 1 second with just speed 300 and to get no damage at all with speed 430+ within max. 1 second if the targeting from the heavy tank is perfect (which it never is). We still have the fact that if you react well and are not too close to the heavy who does rocket + ultimate it is with speed 300+ impossible to get hit 3 times, hard to get hit twice and possible to get hit not at all.
We’ll examine it for certain ranges:
800: I estimate the rocket time to hit the target around ~0.4 seconds. The time between using rocket and ultimate can vary; I’ll go with your 1 second for the example. Let’s say the delay the ultimate hits is just ~0.25 seconds every hit (that’s in the middle of our different assumptions) starting with the first delay before the first hit. We have the 2nd hit at 400 after ~0.5 seconds. (I’ll ignore the possible 3rd hit because it’s impossible if you fly to the side) So we have ~1.5 seconds delay for the first damage near to you after the rocket was shot (1 sec delay between spells, 0.5 due to the ultimate). The rocket stuns ~1.2 seconds, making it ~0.3 seconds additional time for the target to move. ~0.4 from the time until the rocket hits plus ~0.3 makes ~0.7 seconds time for moving. In those you move ~210u with 300 speed, 301u with speed 430. Moving even ~150u 90° from the direction of the ultimate should be enough to dodge this first damage. Easy to do with the 210 possible with speed 300. To dodge the damage dealt centered around 800 you have +0.25 seconds, making it ~0.95 and close to a second. To dodge this you need to move ~400u+size of the tank/2, which means it is really close if you can dodge it completely with speed 430+ (you move ~408u)- but it is possible if the delay is just a bit higher.
1000: I estimate the rocket time to hit the target around ~0.5 seconds. I’ll go for the delay between the spells with your 1 second again. The +~0.1 seconds in comparison to 800 range makes ~1.05 seconds to move until the first ultimate damage around you hits, ~1.3 seconds for the 2nd one. With 300 you move in ~1.05 seconds ~315u. With 430 speed you move ~451.5u. You’ll be able to escape the double damage area with those 315u, even tho it’s close. You can dodge the damage completely with the ~451,5u as the distance to escape is less than 400 at this position. Notice that you need to move different with 300/430 speed, as you move 90° from the direction of the ultimate with 430 speed, but you move either to the upper/lower left or to the upper/lower right with 300. (you move to the left with less than 300 (and maybe with 300, depends on the collision size of the tank so it’s hard to say) as you get additional ~0.25 seconds to move until the 2nd damage close to you hits, to the right with more speed because it has other benefits and you can dodge the 1st damage for sure anyway.
1200: I estimate the rocket time to hit the target around ~0.6 seconds. I’ll go for the delay between the spells with your 1 second again. The time to move until the first damage around you hits is ~1.15 seconds, the 2nd one around ~1.4 seconds. The correct move here is with every tank speed to move orthogonally to the direction of the ultimate. You can dodge the 1st damage easily, so I’ll just do the math for the 2nd one to see if it can be dodged completely. You have 1.4 seconds to move. You’ll move with 300 speed 420u, with 430 ~602u. 420 is close, but 602 dodges it completely with ease.
Everything above 1200 can be dodged completely even easier with those assumptions.
Short note at the end: I didn’t check that thoughts more than once, so there might be mistakes, just point them out/correct them.
Btw: The wait used here is "triggersleepaction" which does bug a lot and is nearly always longer then the value written in the code. You can check popular mapping sites like wc3c as a source for that. According to tests from exodus my first guess on the time was a bit too high, but I’m sure it takes longer than 0.8 seconds from using the skill to hitting the last damage.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - muhaha96 - 2010-02-08
but if you are not flying you can be blocked by creeps, other tanks or the environment so you might not be able to get out of the bombed area
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Prog - 2010-02-08
muhaha96 Wrote:but if you are not flying you can be blocked by creeps, other tanks or the environment so you might not be able to get out of the bombed area
That's one of the reasons why a 4.5k gold air tank has 3600 hp and the 4.5k gold ground tank 4500 hp - even more than one additional hit from lvl 1 ultimate.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - khEg - 2010-02-08
Prog Wrote:muhaha96 Wrote:but if you are not flying you can be blocked by creeps, other tanks or the environment so you might not be able to get out of the bombed area
That's one of the reasons why a 4.5k gold air tank has 3600 hp and the 4.5k gold ground tank 4500 hp - even more than one additional hit from lvl 1 ultimate.
I just know one 4,5k air tanks which is the air ship and it has more than 3600hp
afair it has almost 4k (39~~) without hull
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Prog - 2010-02-08
khEg Wrote:Prog Wrote:muhaha96 Wrote:but if you are not flying you can be blocked by creeps, other tanks or the environment so you might not be able to get out of the bombed area
That's one of the reasons why a 4.5k gold air tank has 3600 hp and the 4.5k gold ground tank 4500 hp - even more than one additional hit from lvl 1 ultimate.
I just know one 4,5k air tanks which is the air ship and it has more than 3600hp
afair it has almost 4k (39~~) without hull
http://btanks.net/wiki/Air_Ship
Of course it has ~4k hp at lvl 10, because it gets +1%hp per lvl. But same goes for the ground tanks, they get even more hp/lvl becouse their base hp is higher.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - lyf590 - 2010-02-09
Prog Wrote:muhaha96 Wrote:but if you are not flying you can be blocked by creeps, other tanks or the environment so you might not be able to get out of the bombed area
That's one of the reasons why a 4.5k gold air tank has 3600 hp and the 4.5k gold ground tank 4500 hp - even more than one additional hit from lvl 1 ultimate.
when i use the airship i always seem to be able to get out of the way without much damage for some reason..
but ground tank its a different story. even if it has more hp, stun+hail of bomb would do around 1/4-1/3 damage to ur tank, or even 1/2 to low hp tanks in mid game. So now u have a damaged tank with 2/3 or 1/2 hp, and u got no creeps around u cuz they were killed by the ult, the enemy would usually chase and kill u.
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - Paladon - 2010-02-16
So what do you suggest?
Re: Hail of bombs imbalanced - eSVau - 2010-02-16
Paladon Wrote:So what do you suggest?
- Increasing the damage (e.g. start at 1100 instead of 800), but only allow a single hit.
- Or the other way, which i wouldn't like, decrease damage per cluster and increase cluster count