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+---- Thread: Dream Team Semi final (/showthread.php?tid=299)
Re: Dream Team Semi final - GEN_Schwarzkopf - 2010-09-29
The rules were adapted in a few scenarios to prevent unfairness. This is one of the cases.
Clearly there is one "rule" that should not have been used, which was made up mid-tournament and was obviously not well thought out.
Allowing the enemy team to decide whether or not a reschedule should be permitted is a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. It's in the rival's team's best interest to force the schedule on the other team, leaving them to choose take advantage or showing honor and courage. Now we're upset with Essi because of this foolish "rule". It should never have been up to him.
olivercamel Wrote:(2) they didn't complain about at all "3 games are too much" before the weekend as normally they should do. So I assume they are ok with it. Otherwise I should've already adjusted the game time.
I've told you over and over we thought we had 2 games. Stop saying that. I have extensive evidence of all my communications with my team that I thought we had only 2 games on Saturday. Don't use your assumptions as evidence.
olivercamel Wrote:Even if the request from the Dream Team is 100% reasonable, the way they requests it is more like "i want to do it, so this has to be done right now" regardless the other people's feeling. And if the other people refuse to do so, they become "uncooperative".
This has to be done now? Wrong, we're asking it be done later. English isn't your first language is it? Please don't make assumptions on the tone of my discussion.
olivercamel Wrote:Then maybe you can say "why not just do it next weekend", in that case, the 7 people who went there waiting for game as scheduled were just for nothing.
I messaged you the moment I knew we had a Sunday game, which as Saturday night. The game could have been rescheduled right there.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - Tom-Ace - 2010-09-29
Blah i didn't want to get involved in this crap but i was there when Dream team found out when their third game time was, and when they did they tried to change that time. Most of the best Toaf bt players are mid to late twenties and have jobs, friends and things to do outside of Pc games and it's very hard to fit three games into one weekend, i myself was so busy i could not even play games so i do think the "both teams agree on a new time" is not a good standing.
Also this will be my only post is this thread i have moved on to the soon to come sc2 bt.
Edit Gummyman: hope you read this even though you dont respond there isnt any need actually.They should have known the 3th game time for 5 days.And about the age issue, me and oli we are both 20+ as well and i belive many players in the tournament are 20+ too.I think some of them have jobs too thats why its done it the weekend.And in consideration with the fact that someone might be working in the weekend or have "realife" business we've put 8 players per team and not 5.If you feel the need to respond PM me.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - olivercamel - 2010-09-29
To GEN_Schwarzkopf,
1. There is NO btt rule allowing to delay/rmk game.
By the rules, the game is only rmk if someone dc in game and the other team agrees (now, referees can force to rmk if dc). It means: if the game time is made, both teams must come on time. Otherwise the team lose the game. Only in case both teams think the game time we made is bad, they can decide to do it at another time. But if they cannot make an agreement, the default game time shall apply.
So there are no "CONFLICT OF INTEREST". We decided your team to do 3 games in 24 hours, then your team have to do it. You can blame the game time we made was bad. But you cannot say "Essi being a jerk".
As a team leader, I question your understanding to the BTT rules.
2.
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:I've told you over and over we thought we had 2 games. Stop saying that. I have extensive evidence of all my communications with my team that I thought we had only 2 games on Saturday. Don't use your assumptions as evidence.
The game time I posted was clear. The email I informed Prohunter was even more clear that your team will have 3 games. None of the other 3 teams have problems reading the game time I made.
Even now, you still never admit that it is (at least part of) your mistake that you "thought" you had 2 games. Mostly because of this "thought", your team is now end up in this situation.
I don't think "we thought we had 2 games" can be used to defend you don't complain in time about "3 games are too much".
3.
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:I messaged you the moment I knew we had a Sunday game, which as Saturday night. The game could have been rescheduled right there.
Be aware it is your Saturday night. Not mine, I "received" it on 6am Sunday morning. And remember, I had to stay up whole night to referee your 2nd game, started at 3:30am and finished before 6am. I fell asleep right after that, and didn't see your message until afternoon, when there is only about 7 hours left. I use only PMs/emails to contact all teams. In that case, what do you expect me to do?
4.
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:olivercamel Wrote:Even if the request from the Dream Team is 100% reasonable, the way they requests it is more like "i want to do it, so this has to be done right now" regardless the other people's feeling. And if the other people refuse to do so, they become "uncooperative".
This has to be done now? Wrong, we're asking it be done later. English isn't your first language is it? Please don't make assumptions on the tone of my discussion.
Yes, English is not my 1st language. And i try to put it more clear if you didn't understand.
I was saying, the way you asked the 3rd game to be delayed, is more like "we want to delay it (msg sent on Sunday morning), so the (Sunday evening) game has to be decided to delay right now" regardless I was sleeping after a whole night stay up, regardless the other team cannot get the message in time, regardless they were preparing/coming for your game as scheduled by giving up their real life as well. When they really came, you told them the decision, why they must accept it? Why they have to spend their time to come here for nothing? And after they refused, they became "uncooperative" people.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - GEN_Schwarzkopf - 2010-09-29
I understand what is fair.
I would have no right to request a re-schedule if I myself had scheduled the game. I did not schedule it but was forced into it by the rule that allows the other team leader the right refuse a reschedule, but not afford the inconvenienced team the right to have a reschedule.
If this rule were applied to the final game and the winner won by default it would make a mockery of the tournament rules.
The same applies here for the semi-final game.
The "rule" is unfair and should only be applied to preliminary rounds to help move along the flow of the tournament. It should not be used to decide the final 3 games.
So, yes I have a problem with that rule, and I appologize for blaming Essi for this issue.
- Rob
Re: Dream Team Semi final - olivercamel - 2010-09-29
I know btt rules are not perfect. But rules are rules, we all have to follow it until the end of BTT.
If in the final game 1 team doesn't come, and the other team win by default. I will feel disappointed, but I will let it be.
Maybe in next BTT (if any), we can define better rules. But honestly, when 2 teams are playing, and when they want to play at different time and not willing to compromise with the other, there are no better way to solve it comparing to the one we are using now.
As my final conclusion for this discussion, we won't change the rules. So we cannot force Old Sluts to rmk. If they want to have the rmk, fine with us. But if they don't, there is no rmk. Personally, I am willing to do all that i can do if it can help for the rmk to happen, just because I don't want to hear more complaints from the Dream Team.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - Althend - 2010-09-29
We all know this btt is a beta for sc2 btt !!!!
Re: Dream Team Semi final - scron2 - 2010-09-30
If you leave it up to the other team to allow a reschedule why don't you just say "no rescheduling"?
==> only if both teams agree on a bad game time <== IE leaving it up to the other team to assess their own advantage -- not an independent authority -- is wrong and a conflict of interest.
It can be assumed that the other team won't cooperate if it benefits them and that was the case.
Rescheduling should have been left up to an appropriate authority not the opposing team (this is a side effect of how you wrote the rule). That is the definition of a conflict of interest because the other team is not interested in your tournament success. A referee/observer would have been a more appropriate person to make that decision if there was any request. This is where you edit the rules given the circumstances and have a person or group of individuals assess how fair the reschedule request is and deal with it in that manner.
Then you limit how many times a team may reschedule in the tournament to prevent abuse, given the specific method.
Seriously why bother leaving it up to the other team if you're dealing with teenagers?
Re: Dream Team Semi final - GEN_Schwarzkopf - 2010-09-30
Let us learn from this. Rules like laws need to be amended to ensure they do not cause injustice.
Quote:when 2 teams are playing, and when they want to play at different time and not willing to compromise with the other, there are no better way to solve it comparing to the one we are using now.
We did not even get a chance to make a compromise on the schedule of the semi-final game. It was "you have to play the game now or you lose". That's not negotiation, there were no compromises even considered.
There could have been more patience on part of the scheduling since we had 3 games in one weekend. We were happy to reschedule with Next-Gen. This factor alone should have been grounds to accomodate a scheduling request. It's not like there were still 14 teams waiting on us; so forcing a schedule at that stage of the tournament is completely arbitrary.
This is your tournament Oliver, if you say you cannot force Old_Sluts to reschedule/remake but you forced us to play a semi-final game when we were unable to play.
1. The rules like a constitution should be amended to ensure fair play, including mid-tournament. Althend makes a good point, if this is a beta test, we need to take this discussion seriously for the next BTT.
2. The semi-final and final games should be arranged at a mutually agreed times. Since there is no further games after the semi and the final, nobody is hurt by being reasonable about scheduling or delaying a game a week.
3. No more than 2 games per team per weekend. If unless there needs to be an exception it should be agreed in advance in writing from the team leader that they can play 3 games in one weekend.
These rules ought to be adopted for the next tournament and a remake should be arranged for this weekend to set the correct precedence in this case.
- Rob
Re: Dream Team Semi final - scron2 - 2010-09-30
lol because you know that remakes never goona fukin' happen.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - olivercamel - 2010-10-01
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:We did not even get a chance to make a compromise on the schedule of the semi-final game. It was "you have to play the game now or you lose". That's not negotiation, there were no compromises even considered.
You had your chance, but you lost it because "you thought you have 2 games". I don't want to say it again, but the game time was clearly published days before you started complaining, and you misunderstood it (the other people don't, but only you). The email I sent to Prohunter is even more clear in plain english. Maybe english is also not his 1st language (like me), so he didn't get it. But indeed it was your mistake to end up in this situation. So you and your team need to take the result.
You put a lot of text to explain how reasonable your request is, but the fact is, if you didn't make the mistake, there won't be this discussion.
The way you are talking is like you are the only good guy who has solid reasons to save other people from doing things wrong. But you selectively ignore that you were the one who was not flawless at the first place. If take a review through the whole thread, there is nothing you feel guilty about yourself.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - mooneye - 2010-10-01
Hey, Please stop your bias view on others. You have NEVER stopped your bias/prejudice/discrimination on other people,e.g. languages. I really think you have problem with your personality. I told you I wont bother you more. Please stop smearing prohunter.
[quote="olivercamel"]The email I sent to Prohunter is even more clear in plain english. Maybe english is also not his 1st language (like me), so he didn't get it.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - mooneye - 2010-10-01
[quote="olivercamel"] but the game time was clearly published days before you started complaining, and you misunderstood it (the other people don't, but only you). The email I sent to Prohunter is even more clear in plain english. Maybe english is also not his 1st language (like me), so he didn't get it. But indeed it was your mistake to end up in this situation. So you and your team need to take the result.
I got olivercamel's email on Thursday night, US time(The email was sent by oliver on Thursday afternoon). There was ONLY 38 hrs away from the 1st match on Saturday. I forwarded the schedule to every players, worrying about if they could get the message in time. There was less than 38 hrs for my group members to check email and change their schedules, if possible. We barely scrambled 5 players for the 1st game. How possible can we prepare for the 2nd, 3th game?
How can you say you gave us PLENTY of time for 3 games within 24 hrs? You are so shameful to put responsibility to others and fabricate "prohunter(dont know much English) didn't get it.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - olivercamel - 2010-10-01
mooneye Wrote:I got olivercamel's email on Thursday night, US time(The email was sent by oliver on Thursday afternoon). There was ONLY 38 hrs away from the 1st match on Saturday. I forwarded the schedule to every players, worrying about if they could get the message in time. There was less than 38 hrs for my group members to check email and change their schedules, if possible. We barely scrambled 5 players for the 1st game. How possible can we prepare for the 2nd, 3th game?
How can you say you gave us PLENTY of time for 3 games within 24 hrs? You are so shameful to put responsibility to others and fabricate "prohunter(dont know much English) didn't get it.
I gave your 38 hours in advance before the 1st game, and you got 6 more hours between 1st and 2nd games. You could start complaining as soon as you receive my email. But your team chose to complain after the 2nd game, at that time I got ONLY 7 hours to handle it.
Who is the unfair one here?
By saying "plain english" I was just telling the truth to protect myself, because GEN pointed at me that the time I gave was "bloody confusing". And therefore he "thought" there were only 2 games.
Maybe the truth wasn't tell in a good way, but it didn't mean to "smear" anyone.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - mooneye - 2010-10-01
You didnt mean this, you didnt mean that. What on earth did you mean. Gen and I quoted a lot of your bias/prejudice/discriminate words toward dream team. All those quotes expressed your truth idea. Please just insist your truth idea. your turth personnality. Please don't pretend to be reasonable after treating dream team rudely and unjustly. You can do whatever you want since you were referee and BTT staff. It was your game but dream team realized this too late. We should had never attended this BTT. Gen, Glen and wfo(three of our seven players) really could not make the 3th game and we lost. Anyways we failed you until last Sunday. I felt proud of our teammates and really appreciate their effort catching the 1st two games in such a tight schedule.
olivercamel Wrote:Maybe the truth wasn't tell in a good way, but it didn't mean to "smear" anyone.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - Prog - 2010-10-01
What I personally do not get is this: How can something be unfair if it is equal to all participants? If any other team lost in an earlier round and then won those games they would have had to play 3 games exactly like you did. Even the schedule said so! If Next-gen had won against you and then against korea #1, they would have had to play against old sluts on the same day as well.
So: What kind of notion of "fairness" do you have which implies any unfairness while treating every team the same?
Re: Dream Team Semi final - Orthodox - 2010-10-01
olivercamel Wrote:mooneye Wrote:I got olivercamel's email on Thursday night, US time(The email was sent by oliver on Thursday afternoon). There was ONLY 38 hrs away from the 1st match on Saturday. I forwarded the schedule to every players, worrying about if they could get the message in time. There was less than 38 hrs for my group members to check email and change their schedules, if possible. We barely scrambled 5 players for the 1st game. How possible can we prepare for the 2nd, 3th game?
How can you say you gave us PLENTY of time for 3 games within 24 hrs? You are so shameful to put responsibility to others and fabricate "prohunter(dont know much English) didn't get it.
I gave your 38 hours in advance before the 1st game, and you got 6 more hours between 1st and 2nd games. You could start complaining as soon as you receive my email. But your team chose to complain after the 2nd game, at that time I got ONLY 7 hours to handle it.
Well, guys, I´ve read the whole thread now. I choosed not to answer here until now, because the other btt-staff was doing it. Well, what can I say...
In my opinion it was a bad circumstance for dream team, BUT, like Prog said, any other team would be treated like dream team and would have to do 3 games at one weekend, if they would have been at thier position. It is not easy for anyone to handle that (neither for the teams, nor the staff/referees). We all got our private life, and the btt/btanks is just a hobby. And because it is a global tournament with non-eu-teams and eu-teams, it is very hard for us/oliver to get a shedule done.
There is always space for ´mistakes` , because this is the first (and hopefully not the only) BTT, where we all have to do our experience. When it comes to the rules, they were made to handle specific situations, and we all have to handle them. We were editing them one time, to handle the problem concerning the DC-theme. But like I said, we ( tthe btt-staff) and every other member of the teams has follow them.
The most important thing, concerning the fact about ´not having enough time to handle the shedule`...
I agree with Oli. Oliver is also just a human being ( I hope so
), and he is trying to manage things out as soons as possible. So the time, he is informinig the teams about the shedule is as soons as possible! And right after the team leaders/ or the guys who can speak for their specific team are getting this mail, they have time to complain the shedule ´as soons as possible´! So in case of Dream team, the point ´as soons as possible` is before the first game, and not later sometime.So according to the rules, when it was time for the 3rd game of dream team, while 2 referees and the team Old Sluts were wainting, and Team Dream Team asked for a reshedule, it was essi´s right to refuse, and got nothing to do with ´not sportsmanlike ` or something like that :roll:
Well, talking that much from you guys, not only dream team, we still got the rules, the semi-final was played, and the final-games are planned. So pls leave it like it is! If there is anything to be said, Gen is able to contact Oliver to sort differences out, but this thread here is becoming more more less usefull ( concerning skills of players, concernining delay/lagg of players, concerning fairness/unfairness etc.)
kind regards,
Orthodox
Re: Dream Team Semi final - GEN_Schwarzkopf - 2010-10-02
This arguement that other teams would have been treated the same way is completely irrelevent. I don't buy the arguement that something is fair if it is equally unjust to everyone. That's foolishness and you all should know better than that. I sure hope someone here understands politics.
No other team had 3 games in one weekend, only the Dream Team. It was unfair to any team, and any self-respecting team would called foul on the scheduling and then the arbitrary rule about the scheduling. It is unjust and any team in this circumstance would be disaffected.
New flash: Oliver PMed me and has agreed to a remake. More to come.
- Rob
Re: Dream Team Semi final - Prog - 2010-10-02
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:This arguement that other teams would have been treated the same way is completely irrelevent. I don't buy the arguement that something is fair if it is equally unjust to everyone. That's foolishness and you all should know better than that. I sure hope someone here understands politics.
You keep on stating "fair" only in a negative way. Please be so kind to give a positive account of your notion of fairness.
Re: Dream Team Semi final - AGGInator - 2010-10-02
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:I sure hope someone here understands politics.look the world. politic isn't the perfect and won't be it in thousands of years.
GEN_Schwarzkopf Wrote:No other team had 3 games in one weekend, only the Dream Team. It was unfair to any team, and any self-respecting team would called foul on the scheduling and then the arbitrary rule about the scheduling. It is unjust and any team in this circumstance would be disaffected.in fact it's not about "what happens" to your team, it's just about "what could happen" to ALL of the teams! i don't see any kind of unfairness.
but whatever we say here, it's all wrong to you. you will keep annoying all until you get what you want regarding to your thinkings 'bout "fairness"
Re: Dream Team Semi final - GEN_Schwarzkopf - 2010-10-03
Okay positive terms. What went well:
The tournament went well for the first 3 rounds as each team had only 1 game to play.
Round 4 was a bit more difficult to arrange as each some teams had 2 games to play. That didn't go as well.
Round 5 was scheduled unfairly: Only 1 team had to play 3 games, ALL other teams only played 1 game. It is not fair for 1 team to have 3 games and all other teams to have 1 game. It doesn't matter what team it is, it is unfair scheduling to them and they should have a right to reschedule at least 1 of the games.
So, in the future if you schedule it this way, be sure to provide some flexibility for any team that has to play more games in the same weekend than other teams. Learn from this.
This is especially true when they indicate they cannot make the 3rd game of the same weekend, and completely unreasonable for the tournament staff to refuse a reschedule. Forcing the team to play a 3rd game in 1 weekend or lose by default is an unfair process for ANY team. Also, allowing the enemy (who had no games that weekend) to decide if a reschedule will be allowed against a team who had to play 3 games is an outrageous conflict of interest. Anyone who does't see the conflict of interest is an idiot and has no intellectual integrity.
Fair and reasonable for everyone would be to arrange it so every team only had 1 game per weekend, as it is reasonable to expect teams to find a good time to play 1 game per weekend.
I'm tired of people posting here. TKF please close my thread after this post.
- Rob