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+--- Thread: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. (/showthread.php?tid=1028)
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The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - scron2 - 2009-10-09
I'm relatively new to this game so I'll try to keep this as short and descriptive as possible.
When I started playing btanks, I had no clue that every 5 minutes got you a random amount
of gold anywhere from 500-3000 gold, depending on the game mode. This concept really hurts
the game for several reasons:
1) New players who are figuring out the game will not know this.
2) It reduces the amount of gold differences that can happen (it negates good lane control & farming).
3) It has the ability to create more unbalance in gold distribution.
Some things I am willing to let slide, like if the creeps kill a hero tank, then you should immediately
get the bounty split among your teammates. For the creeps killing other creeps, you should not
recover that whatsoever. The need to wait every 5 minutes creates "rifts" in farming where
suddenly your opponent has a gold hull out of nowhere while you spend your money more quickly
because you had no clue your steel hull could easily have been a gold hull if you waited 2 more mins.
I'd add a poll but don't know how so post your replies.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - Eniac - 2009-10-09
its not random...the amount of gold u get every 5 min depends on how many cps your team has. its an important strategical aspect that should never be removed
for example: imagine that your team has destroyed all enemy factorys but you cant finish the game. now the enemy team gets much gold with killing your creeps but your team doesnt make nearly any creepkill...sooner or later the enemy team will have a big advantage because you nearly have no gold income and perhaps even turn and win the game.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - scron2 - 2009-10-09
That's bs. You already get gold when you take over a CP.
You should not get free gold for "owning" a CP. Change the amount of gold given
for capturing a CP. Make the creeps that spawn from the CP be worth less gold.
(this way the creeps real value is in the attack power, and not counter-farming)
And add more creeps in the main base waves to compensate for the gold removed.
Strategy should never include the "gold mine" concept. Most games don't allow the
trader for that simple reason. It interjects additional gold into the game that isn't
necessarily recognized as "legitimate".
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - SCorpA1 - 2009-10-09
its not random, thats right, but the GOLD doesnt depend on the cp's
the gold you gain, is the gold the forces had gained the last 5 minutes divided to all players of the team
there is also a topic about it written by exodus
you can find the full post here: http://viewtopic.php?f=48&t=1858
Exodus Wrote:Gold distribution of the Force
Each Force collects the gold they earn until the 5 minute mark. The gold will then be distributed between every player of the Force, based on this formula:
NPT - number of players in a teamCode:ForceGold * 4 / (NPT * 9 + 15)
When working with real numbers, it comes down to this:
5 players = 33.33% (6.67% for each player)
4 players = 31.37% (7.84% for each player)
3 players = 28.57% (9.52% for each player)
2 players = 24.24% (12.12% for each player)
1 player = 16.66%
As you can see, when there are less players in one team, each of them receives more gold, but the team as a whole, gets less money. The gold which wasn't distributed between the players is lost and the Force Gold is set to 0.
The Force normally also upgrades the troops, when all upgrades already have been researched, the gold for the upgrades will also be added to Force gold, before the distribution.
When destroying a Factory of the enemy base, your Force receives a compensation for the lost creep gold. For each creep, which isn't spawning, because it's factory has been destroyed, your Force receives 4 times the bounty of this creep. The same happens with captured Control Points.
Note: Player build Factories have no influence on this.
Example: The game lasted already one hour and your team of 5 players holds every CP
After one hour, one Marine is worth 24 gold, since two Marines spawn at each CP, there is a total of 12 Marines, which is a total of 288 gold. So your Force receives 1152 gold (4 * 288) every 20 seconds for your Control Points. After 5 minutes (they spawn 3 times a minute = 15 spawns), that's a total of 17280 gold. So each player will get about 1153 gold, just for the owned Control Points.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - TKF - 2009-10-09
You have a point that new players don't know they get gold every 5 minutes as you state. They see that they get gold once a while, and if they look at the timer they quickly figure out that the gold occur at the same time every 5 min.
But the gold gained from the force isn't very much and also helps weaker players to get some gold which is a important feature to make a competitive and fun game. The game doesn't need to be unfairly 100% skill based to completely squish out the poorer players. After all the killer gets it all, sometimes you can be unlucky and lose kills to the force.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - Bob666 - 2009-10-09
Maybe the force gold can be divided every second? Maybe not the whole force gold at the same time, but 5% of the gold each second, which is then subtracted from the gold, so if your force kills a tower you wont receive a bunch of gold in one hit, but will get some more money over time until it is completely divided.
The gold division per second has these advantages:
- less text messages
- theres no problem with buying a weapon at 4:30 any more (good for new players and it isnt annoying when you are dead at 4:30 but know that it would be better to wait for 5:00)
- theres already an income per second, of which very few people know its origin (it is depending on the amount of CPs you are holding already, players could be informed about that somewhere else) => From 2 different gold incomes to 1, a good thing.
disadvantages:
- you dont see where the gold is coming from (however, nobody knows the way the force gold is calculated anyways, so that would not really change much)
- maybe its interesting to see new items after the 5 minute marks, so that the power of tanks increases step by step (however, then 10 minutes would be better probably)
That could also reduce the annoying wait time for 75 gold cp-teleport, when you have just bought new items. Dont know whether this is worth a change, but another option could be the possibility to teleport, no matter if you have 75 gold, you will just pay it later when you got enough money, interesting option imho. 75 gold really isnt that much and together with the wait-time the price is much higher (because in that 10 seconds you could already have earned a lot more money, so without that wait time it would be fairer in some way + reduce the chance of an annoying message telling you CP-teleport doesnt work)
Just save the debts in a variable and then subtract it every second, or maybe even only subtract it from the following income per secoind.
by the way, the idea to make the CP target a wider area around the CP but still teleport near the CP itself was a great idea, i dont know the actual range of which the target area has been enlarged, but probably i would enlarge it further, as clicking somewhere near the CP on the minimap, in the direction of which you want to appear near the CP, is VERY relaxed. It would only be neccessary to find a good way for targeting the base and make the target area around the base bigger in the right shape. Anyways, the base isnt much of a problem as it is easy to click.
I like all of the ideas, they are simplyfying and dont have a crucial effect on balancing:
- Force Gold into Income per Second
- Allow CP Teleporting with less than 75 Gold and then subtract the Gold later on
- Enlarge CP Teleport Target Area
EDIT: By the way, the force gold is just a relict from the very first Battle Tanks versions and the idea is simply copied from Battle Ships and Tank Wars, probably now its time to get rid of this old improper code.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - scron2 - 2009-10-10
Ok it looks like this "remove the income" topic has opened
a can of worms here.
1) Force units killing any unit other than a tower or hero
should be deemed "negligible" and not counted.
--Upon tower and hero kills by "the force" each player
should recieve an instantly and evenly distributed amount
without any reductions.
2) Killing factories -- solve the problem like DOTA does:
implement some sort of armor upgrades or HP upgrades
to the side with the factories still remaining.
For example: In DOTA when a rax (factory) is killed the
creeps on the opposing side get stronger (more HP) and spawn
more creeps which in turn render less gold but still make
it so that the gold balance in the game is not affected.
BUT the btanks current example is this: The units no longer spawn
and that gold is lost.... soooo somehow you get a completely
deflated amount of gold, even though your team can lane perfectly
and if they still spawned you would get more gold instead of the
current "income" system.
--An aside to this is the "DOTA" observation that sees that
the interjection or redistribution of gold in the game should
be kept reasonable and understandable. The whole concept of
gaining CP's early is NOT an advantage because you just
pointed out that income is decreased by gaining it in that manner.
I think that High Bounty in particular exacerbates this huge mistake
and this is why we see so many topics and opinions that losing CPs
in that mode is actually advantageous.
The whole objective of my post was:
1) remove the lump-sum shit and reallocate it instantly to only
TOWERS and HEROS and maybe FACTORIES.
2) *added -- adjust the creeps to become stronger for one side
in the event of a razed factory, don't mess with your
"slight of hand" tricks, let the players actually earn the gold
by farming it themselves because...
Point 2.1) It makes btanks a game where the only way to gain
a real advantage on the other team is purely to gank. I will remark
on the idea of the "trader" which is rarely played. It introduces gold
into the game and it is sort of "predictable" in a way that ganking is.
And what I mean is this game is over any time the kills are 2:1 beyond
20 minutes. People at this point don't have to worry about not farming.
Ganking > Farming/Laning.
3) Adjust the bounty to the creeps to compensate for the "mystery gold"
so that players can't be noobs and rely on it for additional income WHILE
they gank constantly. This is why it is so broken, people who farm can't
gain any reasonable advantage unless they gank. Ganking is the only real
way to GET any extra gold into this game as you play it. And when you
combine ganking + free gold, you get the only formula for real success.
SOOOO the point is, stop the free gold flow. If you are saving and have
2,000 while someone who is ganking has 4,000 and then some random
free gold comes along, they can afford a weapon that is comparatively
unbalanced just because they GOT to a certain amount of gold first and
it just snowballs from there.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - Bob666 - 2009-10-10
Ehm scron, first: The player with the more gold will always be able to afford a new weapon earlier.
Other than that, The team holding a factory gets gold for it everytime creeps spawn there. In a fair way. Same with destroyed factories. That is the high force gold in the end of the game for the winning team.
DOTA: This is Battle Tanks, and we already discussed different ways to handle destroyed factories, DOTA was an example often. However, we decided to keep it this way.
No divided gold is actually less fair, because you can only kill a lot of units when you have a lot of firepower. This makes you unable to try different tactics.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - Kesarion - 2009-10-10
I don't think the extra money has any real impact on the game, it just speeds up the game. Players won't suddenly change just because of 600 gold at 5 minutes time.
The only thing is the game will last about 20-30 minutes longer, possibly more depending on the game.
Should "No 5-minute money" be made as a special mode you ask ? Why yes, it should.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - horselance - 2009-10-10
It would be better if Force gold is divided in short periods rather than 5 min marks. Maybe everytime force reaches 100 golds (or more), it divides it and sends to players.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - TKF - 2009-10-10
I like the way the 5 minute gold works. It's stable and predictable income.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - Velocity2k - 2009-10-10
Yes, i like it too the way it is.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - GooglyBoogly - 2009-10-10
I agree, keep it the way it is.
But if you really want to make a point - how about creating a poll?
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - BENNIE.FM - 2009-10-11
y agree
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - lowprofile - 2009-10-11
I think scron has a head as big as the world....Poor argument, go back to DOTA
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - Kesarion - 2009-10-11
lowprofile Wrote:I think scron has a head as big as the world....Poor argument, go back to DOTA
What's the point of insulting someone who just started playing the game ? Grow up.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - scron2 - 2009-10-11
[quote="Bob666"]Ehm scron, first: The player with the more gold will always be able to afford a new weapon earlier.
Other than that, The team holding a factory gets gold for it everytime creeps spawn there. In a fair way. Same with destroyed factories. That is the high force gold in the end of the game for the winning team.
DOTA: This is Battle Tanks, and we already discussed different ways to handle destroyed factories, DOTA was an example often. However, we decided to keep it this way.
No divided gold is actually less fair, because you can only kill a lot of units when you have a lot of firepower. This makes you unable to try different tactics.[/quote]
So why exactly is DOTA not a good example? This is an aos map.
Let me just list a few "tactics"
1) jerk around all game, get the free noob gold and save it.
2) get hunter and get a bunch of free kills
Option 2:
1) Just roam around ganking because farming a lane is extremely inferior to it.
-- and this is why DOTA is such a good example. In DOTA you can't just do that and get gold by doing "NOTHING".
If you don't earn the gold, you certainly don't deserve it. The free income decreases the gold advantage that a
person can obtain in the same way HB speeds up the game. It isn't the mode that is bad, it's the fact that the
free gold is wrecking the game because people can start off doing awesome and turn around to lose to that lame
player who gets hunter and masses 5-10 kills quickly to negate any edge you had to begin with. Saying
"strategies that don't require firepower would not be viable" -- I have news for you, all of them are LAME.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - horselance - 2009-10-12
Quote:Let me just list a few "tactics"
1) jerk around all game, get the free noob gold and save it.
2) get hunter and get a bunch of free kills
scron2 you must teach us how to be a jerk. Because we dont know the way how to get 500 gold per minute by just jerking around.. We really need your "master jerk" skill to be a good player.
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - BENNIE.FM - 2009-10-12
go play dota your arguement is poor btanks is not suppost to copy everything and follow dota,
Re: The 5-minute income needs to be removed. - scron2 - 2009-10-12
Ok so if you are so set on it being 5 minutes, why not every 3.5 minutes? This way the amount
is lower and more predictable/negligible "200" instead of "500". Also armor upgrades should
also follow this time so the game progress can proceed faster. Nobody likes having to spend
14000 in armor upgrades just so their team can get titan and end the game.
This would make ALOT more sense because you still get the gold for the creeps and then
you can afford to buy a real tank sooner because the armor upgrades compensate for the
gold you might not have farmed.