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+--- Thread: Saving up for a frost? (/showthread.php?tid=1050)
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Saving up for a frost? - jonjon - 2009-09-25
I'm starting to see an ugly trend in Battle Tanks. Every game is a frost battle. All 4 of its abilities are effective against ground and air so it has become most players choice of tank. Tanks like Sky and Demon are almost never used because of Frost. I was spectating a game yesterday and I found that in a very even battlefield, people never get a chance to FULLY develop a mid level tank build before someone else gets a frost. And it's the frost that always wins.
Other tanks should be given a chance to be used to its full strength without having to be mowed down by a frost or teams of frosts. The pathway to strategy is getting quite narrow. I propose the armor requirement of frost to be effective and not limited to extended requirements.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - GooglyBoogly - 2009-09-25
Won't that just cause the Demon tank to become the 'new' final, constantly spammed tank? After all it beats the sky tank, and pretty much everything lower, bar the earth robot.
The most expensive tanks available are almost always going to be the one spammed in 'late game'.
Quote:Other tanks should be given a chance to be used to its full strength without having to be mowed down by a frost or teams of frosts.
what about winning the game before the other team can buy their frosts? If you have a squad of demons, and manage to take out their team twice, that should be it - go in, take down their main base and win.
It's only in hb games where the time difference for the extra 3k is so small that destroying the base is not possible, and the game isn't balanced around hb anyway.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - jonjon - 2009-09-25
Quote:Won't that just cause the Demon tank to become the 'new' final, constantly spammed tank? After all it beats the sky tank, and pretty much everything lower, bar the earth robot.
The most expensive tanks available are almost always going to be the one spammed in 'late game'.
No it wouldn't. As you said, Demon is effective against Sky (or Air tanks) but can be beaten by a few tanks such as Goblin Tank, Hunter and as you've noted Earth Robot. Just because you get a Demon doesn't mean you can beat everything lower. That isn't the case with frost. Frost is so much better at assisting team mates ganking and slowing multiple units with slow-aura. Not to mention the specials that can wipe out fully built mid level tanks. It really belongs in the final tier of tanks.
Quote:what about winning the game before the other team can buy their frosts? If you have a squad of demons, and manage to take out their team twice, that should be it - go in, take down their main base and win.
It's only in hb games where the time difference for the extra 3k is so small that destroying the base is not possible, and the game isn't balanced around hb anyway.
Yes, that is true (besides the fact that it is way too easy to defend) but that is not the point I am making here. The fact is, some tanks will never be used because of frost. A frost with almost nothing is way too available and way too effective against those who like to use medium tank builds. I'd like to see some smaller tanks being used in battle more often. And if someone had to get a frost, they'd have to make the upgrades like others.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Velocity2k - 2009-09-25
GooglyBoogly Wrote:It's only in hb games where the time difference for the extra 3k is so small that destroying the base is not possible, and the game isn't balanced around hb anyway.
That's exactly what i thought when i read the post. In most public games (no hb) there are rarely "big tanks" because the game is over long before anybody can afford a "big tank".
It looks like a hb "problem" and as hb is only a fun mode this is nothing to take care of in my opinion.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - jonjon - 2009-09-25
Velocity2k Wrote:GooglyBoogly Wrote:It's only in hb games where the time difference for the extra 3k is so small that destroying the base is not possible, and the game isn't balanced around hb anyway.
That's exactly what i thought when i read the post. In most public games (no hb) there are rarely "big tanks" because the game is over long before anybody can afford a "big tank".
It looks like a hb "problem" and as hb is only a fun mode this is nothing to take care of in my opinion.
It's possible that you rarely expose yourself to games where the teams are almost completely even. And this is normal mode I'm talking about. The games that are over 1 hour in length. The time difference for 3k is really around 5 minutes (or less as the creep bounty goes up along with everyones weapon power). That is nothing on an even battlefield.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Velocity2k - 2009-09-25
In the last months i didn't have enough time to play much private games but before i played enough. And in those games i never saw mass frosts. Most time it's a good mix of the 9k - 18k tanks after 60-90mins.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Exodus - 2009-09-25
The defence requirements really seem to affect the choice of tanks. You know, in a time not so far away, the Frost Robot had requirements. You know why this changed? Because nobody played the Frost Robot back then. When they wanted to rush a strong tank, they chose Demon Tank. When they wanted to save to get a stronger tank, they chose Infernal instead. So the requirements have been removed and people now use the fact, that the tank now has no requirements.
With these half implemented requirements, there will always be a border line, where the last free tank will be pretty popular, whereas the first one with requirements will be less used than normal. Moving this border a few tanks up or down won't change anything. The best solution to this specific problem would be to either completly remove the requirements or add those to every tank. Both of these options are already implemented but not used. When choosing one of these modes, you won't encounter such a problem.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - horselance - 2009-09-25
I also dont see a Frost spam. And while there is Hunter option, 3-4 frost in a team is suicide.
BTW its not quite possible to become 3 or 4 frosts in a team due to :
-A team always needs more than 2 tanks. A tanking player need to spend money on hull.
-Going from start tank to Frost is impossible. You will give half Frost money to your opponent already.. Not logical.
Shortly if you dont build up your midgame tank, you will lose too much to enemy. And while building up midgame tank, it is armor 10-11 and already time for Sky Fortress or with a few upgrades infernal. Mostly people do not waste money for Frost and goes directly for an end game tank.
Only 1 or 2 players can farm safely by allied tanks and sum up money for early frost. Late frost is not so usefull. I see late Frost as losing game.
There must be a strange dynamic for so many Frosts in a game. Everybody must play safe and sum up money, no aggressors etc.. No money spending..
Never seen such a boring game
Re: Saving up for a frost? - jonjon - 2009-09-27
Exodus Wrote:The defence requirements really seem to affect the choice of tanks. You know, in a time not so far away, the Frost Robot had requirements. You know why this changed? Because nobody played the Frost Robot back then. When they wanted to rush a strong tank, they chose Demon Tank. When they wanted to save to get a stronger tank, they chose Infernal instead. So the requirements have been removed and people now use the fact, that the tank now has no requirements.
With these half implemented requirements, there will always be a border line, where the last free tank will be pretty popular, whereas the first one with requirements will be less used than normal. Moving this border a few tanks up or down won't change anything. The best solution to this specific problem would be to either completly remove the requirements or add those to every tank. Both of these options are already implemented but not used. When choosing one of these modes, you won't encounter such a problem.
Yes, I remember that. But times have changed, tanks have been introduced. With the likes of hunter and earth robot, Demon wouldn't be a spammed tank anymore. What do you use to counter Hunter and Earth? Sky. What do you use to counter Sky? Demon. From a strategy point of view, this is the best option.
horselance Wrote:I also dont see a Frost spam. And while there is Hunter option, 3-4 frost in a team is suicide.
BTW its not quite possible to become 3 or 4 frosts in a team due to :
-A team always needs more than 2 tanks. A tanking player need to spend money on hull.
-Going from start tank to Frost is impossible. You will give half Frost money to your opponent already.. Not logical.
Shortly if you dont build up your midgame tank, you will lose too much to enemy. And while building up midgame tank, it is armor 10-11 and already time for Sky Fortress or with a few upgrades infernal. Mostly people do not waste money for Frost and goes directly for an end game tank.
Only 1 or 2 players can farm safely by allied tanks and sum up money for early frost. Late frost is not so usefull. I see late Frost as losing game.
There must be a strange dynamic for so many Frosts in a game. Everybody must play safe and sum up money, no aggressors etc.. No money spending..
Never seen such a boring game
Yeah at most you would only see 2-3 frosts on a team. Start to frost is impossible in a 3v3. 5v5 is another story. You can stay in defense by a couple of your team mates who decide to go a heavy or goblin. Put yourself as bait so that they waste their specials on you while your fellow heavies and goblins use their specials on them. But like I said before, it isn't about the amount of frosts in a game. It's the existence of them without armor reqs that prevents usage of a few tanks.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Kesarion - 2009-09-27
Yes he is right there was a spam on frost bots, especially on eurobattle, I don't understand why so few people saw it, I suppose it's because most here play pro games where there is a great variation in tactics. It happened mostly in medium player games, lasted a few months and ended by September when people realized that hunter could counter frosts 100% of the time then some hunter spamming and now it's a variation in tactics. But that's mainly because games seem to end quicker.
There is still a tendency for frost, this time in pro games. Newbie games seem to end very quick now because there is usually one good player who knows what to do so there is no chance of seeing any action there. In medium player games the airship reigns supreme as the most sought after tank, this is also where the game ends most of the time.
This is how it looks from my experiences, I don't know if this is indeed the way things are but it's worth to take into account I think.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - karate_kid_x - 2009-12-09
And about the frost being the best, most popular tank, That's because it is the best.
I wouldn't feel very comfortable going against a frost with anything but a hunter, but I'll sometimes go after a rushed demon tank with something as low as an antigrav.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - GooglyBoogly - 2009-12-09
Try playing a few game with extended requirements - if you still see everyone getting a frost, then that is a sign it may be overpowered.
However, I am in agreement with many others who suggest it is probably just because the frost tank is the most expensive tank you can purchase in a normal requirements without force upgrades.
In that case, there will always be one 'best' tank, unless of course some new tanks are introduced in the 11k+ range that have no/low requirements - which seems like a pretty lame reason to do so to me.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - PsyNi - 2009-12-16
Hi all.
If u let the enemy save up 2 frost its ones own fault. Dont let them save.
if u cannot compete with 1 tank vs a other tank figure out the gameplay of the enemy make a strategie against it.
If u see 1 player or more saving up for frost buy an orbital control usually it will kill saving players quick off due to the lack of health.
I just had a game where a medivac got a double kill on a frost and a infernal after 90min gameplay.
It is possible 2 play efficent with the start tanks even vs frost. an early bought frost tank usually got no weapons and no mana 2 use all his spells at once what makes him usually a victim.
just make up somethin 2 counter it.
if u got an air tank buy bombs etc.
if he can kill u with skills buy a hull.
after he used his skills drop troops he will not have enough firepower 2 kill them quick away what gives u the advantage.
the map offers many possebilitis to counter such strategie. just try around.
I dont usually play public games but if a player who got more then 1k dps and gets after 35-40min a frost then its usually gg =)
in private games frost is usually only bought if it goes bad for 1 team to prevent a cp overtake.
or if the frost will enable a cp overtake. usually there are not more then 1-2 frost robots on 1 team.
a well played mid game tank is stronger than any frost.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Tom-Ace - 2009-12-16
It's not that frost bot is overpowered, it's that there is a gap from 10k to 13k there is no tanks that cost 11k or 12k in .66, but i hear the new Kronos tank will be 11k.
Maybe this new tank will be enought to counter frost.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - qweqqweq - 2009-12-22
it won't matter if a new 11k tank is good or not. if it is too good then it'll be the most used and the frost will be almost never used. but it it's balanced then he frost will still be slightly overused. if it's total crap then the frost will be used more than ever. i like it the way it currently is. but with the frost tank's special slow aura and uniqueness esp in a team battle i'd like to see it nerfed to 1/100th its current power all around the board. i think it's close to a perfect balance currently.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - jonjon - 2009-12-26
GooglyBoogly Wrote:Try playing a few game with extended requirements - if you still see everyone getting a frost, then that is a sign it may be overpowered.
However, I am in agreement with many others who suggest it is probably just because the frost tank is the most expensive tank you can purchase in a normal requirements without force upgrades.
In that case, there will always be one 'best' tank, unless of course some new tanks are introduced in the 11k+ range that have no/low requirements - which seems like a pretty lame reason to do so to me.
It is not the case if Demon Tank became the last tank without armor requirements. I mentioned this before. You use Hunter/Earth to fight demon. Sky to fight Hunter/Earth. Demon to fight Sky. Frost is in its own league with 4 specials that are effective against ALL tanks. -- Unlike the restrictions placed on the aforementioned.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Althend - 2009-12-26
jonjon Wrote:GooglyBoogly Wrote:Try playing a few game with extended requirements - if you still see everyone getting a frost, then that is a sign it may be overpowered.
However, I am in agreement with many others who suggest it is probably just because the frost tank is the most expensive tank you can purchase in a normal requirements without force upgrades.
In that case, there will always be one 'best' tank, unless of course some new tanks are introduced in the 11k+ range that have no/low requirements - which seems like a pretty lame reason to do so to me.
It is not the case if Demon Tank became the last tank without armor requirements. I mentioned this before. You use Hunter/Earth to fight demon. Sky to fight Hunter/Earth. Demon to fight Sky. Frost is in its own league with 4 specials that are effective against ALL tanks. -- Unlike the restrictions placed on the aforementioned.
Kinda true if there is no new tanks ^_^
Re: Saving up for a frost? - qweqqweq - 2009-12-26
jonjon perhaps your whole arguement is too well articulated and poinent so much so that you don't even see how fundamentally ridiculous it is?
all you're saying is that the frost tank is a good tank all around in most situations, so it's more of a safe choice that requires not too much thinking or even more than a basic knowledge of how all the other tanks works to be effective with it. you're argument seems to try to say that it's never too bad of a choice, although, if the other team had a lot of hunters and goblin tanks i'd think about getting sky tank then sky fort instead of frost, but at least one per team is a pretty good thing though, exp with a power pack so it can take a lot of damage before it has to die or retreat and leave the team without the benefit of its slow aura.
Re: Saving up for a frost? - Althend - 2009-12-26
qweqqweq Wrote:jonjon perhaps your whole arguement is too well articulated and poinent so much so that you don't even see how fundamentally ridiculous it is?
all you're saying is that the frost tank is a good tank all around in most situations, so it's more of a safe choice that requires not too much thinking or even more than a basic knowledge of how all the other tanks works to be effective with it. you're argument seems to try to say that it's never too bad of a choice, although, if the other team had a lot of hunters and goblin tanks i'd think about getting sky tank then sky fort instead of frost, but at least one per team is a pretty good thing though, exp with a power pack so it can take a lot of damage before it has to die or retreat and leave the team without the benefit of its slow aura.
I d rather see it about the gap of price :p
The gap between hunter, sky and demon is so low that the spread would be better ^_^
The frost is not the best choice against a bunch of hunter but it is a quit rare event. You know that i d rather take a frost "most" of the time ^_^
Re: Saving up for a frost? - qweqqweq - 2009-12-26
Althend Wrote:qweqqweq Wrote:jonjon perhaps your whole arguement is too well articulated and poinent so much so that you don't even see how fundamentally ridiculous it is?
all you're saying is that the frost tank is a good tank all around in most situations, so it's more of a safe choice that requires not too much thinking or even more than a basic knowledge of how all the other tanks works to be effective with it. you're argument seems to try to say that it's never too bad of a choice, although, if the other team had a lot of hunters and goblin tanks i'd think about getting sky tank then sky fort instead of frost, but at least one per team is a pretty good thing though, exp with a power pack so it can take a lot of damage before it has to die or retreat and leave the team without the benefit of its slow aura.
I d rather see it about the gap of price :p
The gap between hunter, sky and demon is so low that the spread would be better ^_^
The frost is not the best choice against a bunch of hunter but it is a quit rare event. You know that i d rather take a frost "most" of the time ^_^
at the risk of repeating myself, i don't think putting a armor req cutt off nearer to closer priced tanks does any good since the better tanks at only a slightly higher price would just be used less despite the only slightly higher price. It's a convenience thing, not a price or balance thing. the frost tank don't gotta be all that spectacular to be overused in its position now, in fact, it could be a little underpowered and still be convenient enough to be useful, just so long as it's noticeable better than demon tank.
a possible more simple and reasonable ultimate solution to one tank constantly getting overused would be to keep changing the armor req so that it's random, sometimes u need it for every tank, sometimes for none, but it's decided at the start of the game at random with no one's control or foresight.
in real life a similiar situation is the gas requirements for cars. as gas fluctuates so does our abilities to drive different cars that consume more or less gas per mile based on our budgets and usage requirements. So it wouldn't be too far out of the realm of reality to make allow the armor req to randomly be decided. is anyone else following me?