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+--- Thread: The torps issue (/showthread.php?tid=1454)
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The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-15
Hey guys there are 2 major issue I have with torps:
1. Really easily exploited against noobs and easily exploited by noobs who end up screwing themselves over mid and late game
2. They do SIGNIFICANT damage based on nothing more than luck. Wc3's phoenix fire spell is supposed to do a pseudo even amount of damage across multiple targets based on pseudo random targeting. However torps' long cooldown and massive burst damage completely screw this balance up to doing significant uneven damage across multiple targets. In other words massive damage is dealt based on luck and not skill.
I think it would be best if we keep all the torp stats but change it to a x2, x3, or x4 weapon. That way there won't be any more of those lucky kills. It would also weaken torps as a farming weapon such that noobs won't be so inclined to use them without proper range awareness.
Re: The torps issue - Exodus - 2009-03-15
Another scenario would be: 'noobs' would still buy Torpedoes and suck even more.
Re: The torps issue - Princess_Bob - 2009-03-15
Haha, people learn if they keep playing
Re: The torps issue - Althend - 2009-03-15
Princess_Bob Wrote:Haha, people learn if they keep playing
Only if they use their brain...
Re: The torps issue - DerSatan - 2009-03-15
luck and bad luck balance themselves automatically in the long run.
if you try using torpedos yourself, you will notice that its also possible that all your 3 torpedos hit the only creep in your range instead of the 20 HP helicopter.
Re: The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-15
Princess_Bob Wrote:Haha, people learn if they keep playing
This still doesn't help the element of luck used in torps.
@Exodus Could you try my idea in the next beta please?
@DerSatan torp damage won't 'balance' out as it differs by massive increments. Increments large enough to kill a low to mid range tank. Also whether or not your 20hp copter lives or dies won't depend on how well you've roughly calculated firepower distribution over you and your surrounding creeps but just plain luck.
Re: The torps issue - DerSatan - 2009-03-15
if your enemy can deal enough damage in 1 hit to you to kill you from full health, your playing strategy is just bad.
and yes, of course a single situation is always luck or bad luck. but if you look at X situations in a game, you will notice that the luck and bad luck DO balance itselves, and all what is left over is the playing/strategical skill difference between you and your oponnent.
Re: The torps issue - ChronicStoned - 2009-03-15
you always will have luck or badluck.
and torpedos can be countered very easily so it requieres atleast a bit of skill to use them effective
Re: The torps issue - Princess_Bob - 2009-03-15
Let's at least throw around "Law of Large Numbers" instead of "Luck" lol
Re: The torps issue - jonjon - 2009-03-16
DerSatan Wrote:luck and bad luck balance themselves automatically in the long run.
if you try using torpedos yourself, you will notice that its also possible that all your 3 torpedos hit the only creep in your range instead of the 20 HP helicopter.
Lol. People who don't buffer multiple torps at the start of the game are obviously noob.
Re: The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-16
@DerSatan
DerSatan Wrote:if your enemy can deal enough damage in 1 hit to you to kill you from full healthAt the start if one chooses tinker and then scout or copter then killing an opponent in 1-2 hits is certainly possible. During midgame it's very unlikely a concentrated blast of torps will kill a good player in one shot however 2-3 hits will force the enemy to play defensively if not constantly going back to their cp. But luck should not be a factor in it at all. I'm not saying that a bit luck is bad, if damage was always evenly distributed between creeps btanks would be quite a boring game. A small random factor is needed, I'm simply saying 628 damage is too much damage to be dealt based on luck. Meanwhile all noobs see is torps chunking away large amounts of hp and cheaply getting kills across large distances which prompts them to attempt the same and then getting completely obliterated in the process.
What I'm suggesting doesn't really change torps all that much. By splitting up the firepower torps will do damage in smaller increments (628/4 if x4 628/3 if x3) thereby toning down the luck factor to a balanced level. By doing this noobs will stop using torps because they'll actually have to put in much more effort to do the whole 628 damage on a single target.
Re: The torps issue - horselance - 2009-03-16
Remember that it has 3+ cooldown and most creeps have more than 650 hp. This means you cannot even kill 1 creep in 3 seconds with 1 torpedo. with 2 torpedos asuuming you hit 1 creep per 3 sec with both, you will kill 1 creep every 3 sec. This performance is very low. it costs (2800+1000)*2= 7600 golds, with that gold you will buy a better creeper weapon with 800-1000 range. When you see some1 buying second torpedo, go change your tank and kill him permanently because he will need 4+ hits (13sec without creeps) noone can be so lucky..
While you are not killing any creeps, your enemy will be killing creeps faster and get you easily, your chance to hit enemy tank will always will be low because of slow killed creeps.
I only buy this weapon if I see enemy buying an iron hull or second weapon. Otherwise it is a waste of money.
Re: The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-16
horselance Wrote:While you are not killing any creeps, your enemy will be killing creeps faster and get you easily, your chance to hit enemy tank will always will be low because of slow killed creeps.
I only buy this weapon if I see enemy buying an iron hull or second weapon. Otherwise it is a waste of money.
Enemy tanks will not be able to constantly farm against a decent torp user as 1 - 2 hits will either force them either stay further behind the creep line or go heal at a cp thereby losing gold and exp. Also the chances of hitting the enemy aren't as low as you think as you're only protected by the creeps that are between you and the torp user, not behind. This also brings me back to the first point that your doing significant damage based on chance and nothing else. If a torps are fired in your direction they might hit creeps, in which case some may die and you lose cover in the process or they might hit you. In both cases you are forced to retreat because either a large portion of your creep cover just got annilated or you just took 650- 1300 damage. And let's not forget that this occurs at 1300 probably before you even get near your creep wave. You might also want to consider that more experienced torp users will probably have gone airship in which case one shocker and plasma rain will have obliterated whatever creep cover you have left leaving you with no creep cover, roughly 1300 less hp, and with another 1300 per 3.33 seconds depending on how long it takes you to return to cp.
Re: The torps issue - Dr.McNinja - 2009-03-16
Haha.. i almost never use them but they are nice to see.. they are UNIQUE and banning or changing them would just be blasphemy.
By unique i mean, theres no other weapon quite like it. I mostly like the slow rate of fire combined with very large projectile.
Re: The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-16
Dr.McNinja Wrote:Haha.. i almost never use them but they are nice to see.. they are UNIQUE and banning or changing them would just be blasphemy.
By unique i mean, theres no other weapon quite like it. I mostly like the slow rate of fire combined with very large projectile.
As much as I like elements of the game becoming iconic, torps just aren't worth keeping as they are for nostalgic reason. Besides the method I suggested won't actually change how torps look or sound, just how it fires.
Re: The torps issue - DerSatan - 2009-03-16
if torps are that good and imba as you describe them, how does it come that torpedo players (even experienced players) cantdominate games, havnt better stats than the other players etc...?
Re: The torps issue - bobbob247 - 2009-03-17
Self Quote FTW:
Quote:First, the weapons with a high cooldown almost always have a large amount of damage associated with them. I call the first attack that you hit an enemy hero with the 'impact damage.' This is most easily earlygame with something like a tornado summoner. If you can land a tornado summoner hit and follow up with a good nuke, it will kill many tanks earlygame. The same is true of energy torpedoes. Would you buy an energy torpeedo if it instead dealt 72 damage per shot with a cooldown of 0.5 seconds? Probably not, because it lacks the surprise of a current energy torpedo. Perhaps you would buy it to farm as a tinker, but it would be a largely unused item. Using weapons with a high impact damage happens usually earlygame, as afterwards, players tend to get enough HP to compensate. You don't see too many players using infernal rocks, partly because a lot of the time, it will hit a creep, and secondly, by the time you can get into range with the rocks, you don't have enough HP to fight.
Energy torpedoes just plainly drop off mid-lategame. Worst comes to worse, flood creeps and laugh.
Re: The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-17
bobbob247 Wrote:you don't see too many players using infernal rocks, partly because a lot of the time, it will hit a creep, and secondly, by the time you can get into range with the rocks, you don't have enough HP to fight.
Indeed, unless you plan on defending or capping cps with them you would upgrade them asap.
bobbob247 Wrote:Using weapons with a high impact damage happens usually earlygame, as afterwards, players tend to get enough HP to compensate.
Enemies will certainly get enough hp to prevent a one hit kill, but 2-3 hits torp hits would still put a dent in anyone's plans either forcing them either back to fountain or further behind creeps.
Meanwhile, I think we're getting a bit offtrack here, my main point is still torps do significant damage based on luck. Let me give an example here: Say there are 3 scouts, 1 light force 2 dark force with the light force scout having a laser. According to the way pheonix fire works both scouts should receive roughly similar damage before both are destroyed. Now this makes sense with the way btanks is played as more units in range of the weapon means roughly distributed damage over those creeps. Now replace the laser with a torp and what happens? After the first hit one scout will have significantly less hp that the other while the other is at full hp. Now, the second hit may destroy the scout entirely or level both scouts' hp but the issue here is that 478-650 is far too large an increment to be distributing damage over or in other words it manages to avoid the creep protection mechanic. What torps has done is equivalent to a laser focus firing on a single scout for 478 damage and not in the actual time it would take,mind you, for a laser to actually do that much damage.
bobbob247 Wrote:Worst comes to worse, flood creeps and laugh.
Indeed creeps are often the answer however the result will be either torps hitting you or simply just farming creeps safely at 1300 range. This is also why I proposed that torps should be changed into a multiple hit weapon as torp users would have to make a choice of either farming creeps or attempting to harass the enemy.
Re: The torps issue - ChronicStoned - 2009-03-17
if your explanation with the 2 scouts and the laser<->torp difference is the reason, you could also change infernal rocks, darkness cannon, light fantastic, ...
nearly everything which does high dmg/hit while slow firerate
Re: The torps issue - koshen - 2009-03-17
ChronicStoned Wrote:if your explanation with the 2 scouts and the laser<->torp difference is the reason, you could also change infernal rocks, darkness cannon, light fantastic, ...
nearly everything which does high dmg/hit while slow firerate
They are not starting weapons and do not have 1300 range which would make them perfectly ok as attempting to use them as you would torps would be very punishable. Torps on the other hand is a starting weapon and has 1300 range so they can be used with impunity.