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+--- Thread: Destroying the enemy base (/showthread.php?tid=1582)
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Destroying the enemy base - qweqqweq - 2009-01-22
i'm close to off topic...
exodus:
I agree that the hb mode is a pain to finish the other team but I don't think it's just hb mode. Ever since lots of guysstarted going air with long range (sometimes death magics) in my games it's gotten tougher and tougher to seige a base. I'm not saying it's imbalanced in normal mode. But it still can be a big pain in the ass when you don't have the best of teamates. Anyone who's not done it quite a few times already is probably going to have a tough time. I highly recomend increasing the force gold for EVERY factory that you've destroyed in the other team's base to compensate for the loss of creep gold. Or if this is already the way the force gold formula works then i think there should be a boost for the team with more base factories left. Just my opinion, maybe i'm wrong.
Side note: (going further off topic, sorry) The way things work right now I still think it's a big risk to try and bomb a base with a tcc. I think its hit points should be increased a little bit more still or its bomb range increased so that if you place it between the last set of lazer towers in the center than you can still bomb in between the front factories of the enemy's base. It's hard to stop it from being exploded by kamikaze antigravs, helicopters, tinkers, exploders, goblin tanks, infernals, titans, etc. also the new advanced troop recepie is a great way to tear down an attackers tcc and/or factories. The defenders can each put the items in lazer towers too and use more than one troop item at once making tcc bombing very difficult at times.
There was one game i was in this week that was a normal mode game and there was one of the top players of my clan on the other team (the current number 1 league player in another realm, but I won't say which one and give away who it was) and their team had doulbe our kills, all 6 cps, 2 factories, and a tcc outside our base, all our base was destroyed except for the artillery building, they had 4 players to our 2, all of this at just 30 minutes into the game and we still won the game even after being bombed once by the enemy tcc. If all the players on the other team were as skilled as their best player I'm pretty sure i would have lost, but still, i really shouldn't have been able to win that game though. It was pretty outrageous and silly. To win it i got a frost robot with all 1k ranged weapons, i put up two lazer towers with 1 or 2 gold hulls in each, plust an advanced troop recepie in each and an orbital bombardment in each. It was pretty funny but also kind of sad to crush all thier pathetic attempts to destroy our base. I also had 3 factories near the vehicle plant. Whenever they tried to set up factories and/or tcc's outside my base i would grab a troop recepie and an orbital bombardment from one of my towers and use it to crush their encampments. I also had some Tech mechs repairing my buildings.
It's really no problem finishing off a base with skilled attackers but in my opinon it's just a little tedious. I think it kind of takes the fun out of the game for the attackers.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Exodus - 2009-01-22
Ok, I made a new topic out of it.
Do you really think, just increasing the money you get will change the situation you just described? You get money for every destroyed factory btw (or to be more exact, for every creep which isn't spawning at the enemy base, self build factories won't influence this).
Increasing the money will only help after some time. And if it's high enough to help you earlier, it will become imbalanced and the defending team will lose every chance of turning the game around. It's kinda difficult to find the right balance between ending the game early and still keeping the chance for a comeback for the other team. If the gameplay tends too much in one direction, the particular team won't have fun playing on.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - BENNIE.FM - 2009-01-22
I think there is no prob in destroying a teams base on normal mode just hb but idc about it anyway hb is only fun mode
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Althend - 2009-01-22
Currently if you put a lot of mines and use "only hero weapon", it is really really easy to defend the base. (and add an exploder in the team and it become really annoying for attackers)
An idea to help the problem and increase strat ingame: Why not adding a cp in front of each base? So if we are able to take the cp on front of the enemy base it would help a lot for siege and it gives more incentive to defender to counter attack.
Or maybe put an option in factory "shut off troop spawning"
Re: Destroying the enemy base - qweqqweq - 2009-01-22
Ya, i do think it will balance it, that's why i suggested it. think of it this way exodus, if you take a cp you get more force gold every five mintues, so why not more if you take down an enemy base's factory too? But do what you like, i could be wrong.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Exodus - 2009-01-22
It's not like I insinst on the current system. But when I ask this, I want to hear arguments for your suggestion (from you or any other forum user). You just described where you see problems right now and made a suggestion on how to solve those problems, but you didn't say how this would actually improve the situation, which is really important imo.
Like I said, I think money won't be right and single solution to the situation you and Althend described. It may be part of it, but to really benefit from the increased income, you'd have to wait like 10 minutes and during this time just wait and try not to risk anything. Instead, there should be better options to siege a base. Maybe stronger Building-Only weapons, a cheaper bomb (TCC or normal) or maybe an additional advantage when you control all CPs (better healing for your team, weaker healing for the other team, free CP-Teleport, etc) or even something like a free upgrade for your troops when you destroy a factory of the enemy base. As you see, there several possibitilies to improve the situation.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - the truth - 2009-01-22
I'm going to have to disagree with the original poster and say that it isn't hard to seige bases, and is infact much easier now. Honestly, in all my games I've played of 8.56, I haven't really seen any problems. Just get some mortars (as well as 3 factories and armor upgrades) and it's quite easy to take out bases. The only times I've lost when I tried to seige was when my team were incompetant and didn't know how to seige (such as the simple task of buying seige packs) or left the game altogeather.
In the scenario you described, it more or less sounds to me like you just defended extremely well and they seiged extremely poorly and that you deserved the win.]
Though, i do think the poster does indicate some problems that need to be addressed. The first one being death magic. Right now, death magic is way overpowered (for reasons I described in the thread discussing weapon dps for hero only and creep only weapons). It should be weakened, while shorter range hero only weapons (such as bombs, aa-gun) should be enhanced.
A second problem that exists is that the bomb is way too easy to destroy. At this point, I've basically given up on using them and stick to using mortars, troops from factories and troop command, and lots of armor upgrades instead. Seems to work pretty well. The bomb from the troop command centre is atleast free, but the regular bomb is just a waste... except when bombing your own base
. Ways to make the bomb better include, making it invisible, increasing the range that you can place the bomb, increasing the bomb's health, increasing the bomb's health with armor and weapon upgrades (it is a weapon after all), or making the bomb do 1/3 damage when destroyed. Again, I made a thread on this problem.A third problem is mines. It's nearly impossible to seige a base if the enemy team is massing mines in it, because face it, there is 0 counter to mines. With exploders, there is tp breaker, which is a great counter (btw, tp breaker should be buyable from factories so it's easier to obtain). However, with mines, all there is is the mine detonator. The most significant problem is that an enemy can have 3 mines each (4 if demolisher), while the defending player can only have 1 mine detonator. In addition to this, while the defending team can drop mines the moment the cooldown recovers, the attacking team can only use the mine detonator if in range of mines (and when attacking, half the time you are moving to and from your factory to heal). Combine this with the low AOE and low range of the detonator, as well as it's inability to combine with other items and you can see that it's pretty much useless as a counter. For the mine problem, I created a thread on mine detonators in the suggestions forum. In there I suggested things like, allow the mine detonator to be combined with other weapons, increase its casting range, increase it's AOE but maybe it would destroy all the mines in the AOE, give it a combat ability such as the ability to stun enemies, maybe make it upgradeable, limiting the number of mines a tank can use, etc. And if that doesn't work, just make the bomb destroy mines and it would be a great counter to mine-fields.
So yeah, those are 3 problems that I think should be addressed that might help the problem the original poster is describing. Other than that, I think seiging bases is fine, and that just giving the attacking team more gold isn't very smart. The only other thing I would like the comment on is factories. With the new version, factories got weaker (because they can either heal or spawn troops, but not both). This made it harder to seige bases. While I prefered the old factory that did both, I don't see exodus going in that direction, so how about instead give the factory and additional upgrade (say 500 gold) on top of the troop spawning factory upgrade that makes it both a troop spawning and healing factory at once?
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Althend - 2009-01-23
Exodus Wrote:It's not like I insinst on the current system. But when I ask this, I want to hear arguments for your suggestion (from you or any other forum user). You just described where you see problems right now and made a suggestion on how to solve those problems, but you didn't say how this would actually improve the situation, which is really important imo.
Like I said, I think money won't be right and single solution to the situation you and Althend described. It may be part of it, but to really benefit from the increased income, you'd have to wait like 10 minutes and during this time just wait and try not to risk anything. Instead, there should be better options to siege a base. Maybe stronger Building-Only weapons, a cheaper bomb (TCC or normal) or maybe an additional advantage when you control all CPs (better healing for your team, weaker healing for the other team, free CP-Teleport, etc) or even something like a free upgrade for your troops when you destroy a factory of the enemy base. As you see, there several possibitilies to improve the situation.
Hey, why not making the respawn time being lower when we have more cp and bigger when we have less?
I would balance a lot and give much more motivation to get cp. Each cp acquired would reduce 5-10 percent of the countdown and each cp lost would add 5-10 percent to the countdown. Defenders would wait like 60 percent more when they die and they lsoe all their cp.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - BENNIE.FM - 2009-01-23
hmm personally in normal mode there is no prob in destroying a teams base i think its a good and and balanced finished but thats imo hb is another story maybe just increase gold for attacking by a bit but the problem u guys are seeking want be solved with a little bit more money
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Princess_Bob - 2009-01-23
Quote:Hey, why not making the respawn time being lower when we have more cp and bigger when we have less?
What I dont like about this is that as a defender, you are less likely to have time to try and regain a control point, thus permanently keeping you on the defense. I feel that the death times are balanced well currently, and that tampering with them in the manner described would lead to a more one sided advantage on the attacker.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - lowprofile - 2009-01-23
Althend Wrote:
Or maybe put an option in factory "shut off troop spawning"
if u mean the factory u buy, u can
Re: Destroying the enemy base - ChronicStoned - 2009-01-23
you are right the truth but i think most players don't read your posts, because they are incredible long!
just bring down the ideas in short form then people will notice them i think
Re: Destroying the enemy base - GooglyBoogly - 2009-01-23
Quote:plust an advanced troop recepie in each and an orbital bombardment in each
This is something that shouldn't be too hard to fix, just make it that you cannot drop rechargable items while in cooldown, and they require 1 mana to activate.
That way you cannot drop/pickup multiple copies of one item, and cannot have towers activate them either
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Twilight_Zone - 2009-01-23
I still think the best solution is limit the tower rebuild times to 3-5. if ur base tower got kill 3-5 times means ur team can't defend the base anymore. That team should be lose.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Vomitus - 2009-03-31
the truth Wrote:btw, tp breaker should be buyable from factories so it's easier to obtainI think this proposition makes sense. And not only breaker but those invisible sensing eyes too(forgot the name). I personally tired of jumping back and forth, dropping weapon 1 and weapon 2, bying eyes and breakers, and so and so...
GooglyBoogly Wrote:And what great sense it in it? This is a feature rather than a bug, don't you think?Quote:plust an advanced troop recepie in each and an orbital bombardment in eachThis is something that shouldn't be too hard to fix, just make it that you cannot drop rechargable items while in cooldown, and they require 1 mana to activate.
That way you cannot drop/pickup multiple copies of one item, and cannot have towers activate them either
Twilight_Zone Wrote:I still think the best solution is limit the tower rebuild times to 3-5. if ur base tower got kill 3-5 times means ur team can't defend the base anymore. That team should be lose.That would be too hard. But what really makes sense is making cooldown on building towers. Let us say, you can build tower only once per minute or once per two minutes on the same place. Or you cannot build tower right immediately on the place of the destroyed one - you must wait 15 seconds after destruction to build a new tower. But notice, I didn't say anything about the impact on other aspects of gameplay such change could do.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Dr.Popitz - 2009-03-31
From my experience I must say that it is hard enough to turn the game around if your enemies keep pushing into your base. (Or maybe I'm just too noobish...) I think the endgame is not flexible enough. It’s quite easy to give your opponents one hell of a hard time when you’re defending, but I’ve seen a lot of games, in which the defending team did not manage to push the attackers back. Whether the teams were equal or not. So what I suggest is: Make both things easier. To break the base down and to turn the game around.
Although I must admit that I don’t really have an idea how to do this. So I think this will never happen…
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Morkardar - 2009-04-01
On the other hand it is really really easy to siege enemy base if you want to.
Heavy Tank + Advanced troop pack + mortar pack + mortar single-use + orbital control + hull + speedpack
Ever tried it?
Plopping 3... 6... 9... 12 mortars at a time with -aura on your pack...
Sieging is easy... even if you have to retreat those units nearly instantly kill towers.
Maybe you need two times to destroy something and you dont even have to be there.
Dont tell me there are no counter-strategies... you just didnt find it.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - qweqqweq - 2009-04-12
Btanks ladder play and dota are where most the action is and a lot of tournaments and publicity and corporate sponsorship are at. there's no arguing that. but on the other hand people will always play what is the best and most enjoyable. and with this latest version i think battle tanks has taken a big step in the direction to be number 1 wc3 map. as far as i know it requires better teamwork, strategy, and is more dynamic than any other map by far. At some time dota overtook ladder play as the number 1 most played or at least it's close. i have no idea, i'm just guessing. So despite everything a really good map will come out number 1 no matter what. i know at least some people will dislike or even hate the new changes but i love them so far.
not having to worry about exploding tanks in no exploder mode is really nice. it's a special custom mode that's really given slow moving ground tanks and teams with leavers a big boost in my opinion. I always look for the fairest game as possible and for as much of an even challenge as possible even with leavers and this is a good quick fix. I still think there can be a change to cp tp and exploder that can balance while including exploders. For now, I only wish there was a way to pick "no exploder" faster like you can with no trader.
I'm still not sure about the trader changes. the verdict's still out on that i think.
If it was up to me the 30k weapon that's short range would be even more short range (600) but i definately like the new weapons. if it was 600 range i think it would make poisons and lazer much stronger. i'll check out there dps and ranges with a calculater later and make sure they follow the damage equation but for now i assume they're great.
the extra force upgrades are very nice. i think it's possibly a perfect solution to the end game problem in all non-conquest victory modes. even if it does get changed it's nice for noobs to see the importance of holding cps now, which will encourage them to try to adapt more aggesive tactics from the start from now on i hope.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - plonnc - 2009-04-12
The no explosives mode is not that nice. For example, if one team has an overfed player (well its the same situation if one player got too many kills), it is very hard for the defending team to do anything against him. Of course Btanks is a team game, but the strong tank has allys, too.
With a no explosives mode, the defending team can't even use the Antigrav to explode. And mines are not a good option anymore, since the mine detonator has been buffed.
I think this mode pretty much sentences the defending team to death, as it disables the most efficient counter against strong tanks.
Back to topic: The no explosives mode made destroying the enemy base easier.
Re: Destroying the enemy base - Vomitus - 2009-04-14
I dunno why you don't like exploder but our later games have always had exploder enabled. And no one ever whined about it. If someone go exploder and start making problems someone in other team just buys tens of breakers and covers every significant point on the map(it is not that much btw). And in the case of base assault it is even easier to set breakers in vital places to completely disable exploder. So I don't see how could disabling explosives fasten base destruction. Maybe just in a very slight way - you don't have to buy breakers that much. But in the other hand there is one player more who has tank and weapons. So it could be even harder to assault.
My opinion.