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+--- Thread: Weapons (/showthread.php?tid=2050)
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Weapons - NoobStrike - 2008-06-16
Everyone seem to be ending up with the same weapons... Rocket Swarm is WAY overpopular. Seems like 3/4 of the players get Rocket swarm as their first weapon after the basic weapons.
There are many gaps to fill for short and long ranges. Long range need a 4500$ weapon. a 10,000$ weapon and acid should be boosted to 14,000$ This would make it 2,000, 2,800, 4,500, 6,000, 10,000, 14,000... Would open up more options then 2 2.8 6 and 12...
Short also need some love. Ice cannon should be at the same DPS but higher firerate. There should be something alike poison magic at 8.5 to 9k to fill the game to blaster. Would give: 1,500 3,000, 5555, 6,750 (flamer), 8,000, 11,000 (is that right for blaster?). Also, look into the high rate weapons... they tend to be way more used then high damage low firerate weapons...
Also, RocketSwarm needs to be changed... the weapon is just too perfect... HIGH firerate, relatively low cost with a nice upgrade to bring it to 300dps... Either make it shorter with 300 dps with a range upgrade or something...
My 0.02$
Re: Weapons - Exodus - 2008-06-16
You may want to take a look into this thread
Its alot of text, but basically the same topic.
Re: Weapons - DerSatan - 2008-06-16
swarm rockets are popular in public games. maybe because people like the name (rockets, woohoo), the icon (rockets again), or the sound it makes when firing (sounds like strong rockets).
in arranged high-level games, the swarm rockets are much more unpopular afaik.
Re: Weapons - NoobStrike - 2008-06-16
I agree you should merge it if you can Exodus.
As to rocket being less popular in arranged highlevel... We had a 5v5 where 8 of the 10 players had a rocket swarm... We usually have even our close range get a rocket swarm then a poison instead of ice cannon then poison... Dunno, I look forward to play against your team, meet us in Clan 13T if you want a Clan V Clan.
Re: Weapons - RedNova - 2008-06-16
It is essentially a 1000k weapon with a medium-fast rate of fire with damage calculated the SAME as every other weapon in the game. It's how to use it that counts, and it is very easy to use.
But any correct player can use his own 1000k weapons to the same effect provided he knows how to use them. Therefore, swarm rockets are popular but absolutely equal to every other in term of cost and effectiveness.
Popularity is just an irk, not an abuse, unless you can convince us otherwise.
As for the other thread, it treats your other problem quite well. Dunno if there was a conclusion yet.
Re: Weapons - NoobStrike - 2008-06-16
I do agree it's using the same formula. I believe there just is a new factor that should be put into the equation: Firerate. Higher Firerate is better then Lower Firerate... Higher firerate will always leave into less damage waste. I'll go straight to the extreme case for you guys to understand. If I have a weapon A doing 1000 damage fire rate 10 seconds and weapon be doing 10 damage fire rate .1 second. They both have a 100dps... Now, try to kill something with 1001 damage... It will take weapon A 10 seconds (hit at 0 and hit at 10) and cannon B 10 seconds... HEY, it's the same, what is that punk that about... Now, there s 3 creeps with 100 hp each around your target... of COURSE, you can be lucky and kill your target in the first 2 hits with weapon A but the odds are... 6.25%... Odds are you will kill creep 1 at 0, then 10 seconds to kill creep 3 then hit your target twice... and creep 2 suffered 0 damage... took you 30 seconds... Weapon B: smack all creeps fairly evenly... creep 1 2 and 3 will all die at second 4 and target at 14 seconds... that is LESS then half of weapon B and you killed all 3 creeps and your target...
The only case weapon A is better then weapon B is where 0 hits are to be wasted on targets other then the main target. This virtually never happens. Even with spells like rocket hall from heavy tank... I usually run in there which will create my weapon to fire on a target before I use rocket hall...
This is an extremely case... but this is why cannons such as lightning and confusion magic are virtually never used. The only difference between these and rocket, fear and so on is the firerate... yet... noone wanna take them...
What I suggest is: Average firerate = .75 lets say.
DPS1 = (GOLD COST / 15 * 1000) / RANGE (your original formula)
DPS2 = DPS1 ((Firerate/.75/5)+0.8) (FireRates .33 and under are concidered as .33)
(FireRates Above 1.5 seconds are concidered as 1.5)
Damage = DPS x Firerate
So, when creating a weapon, you need to think of the following: GoldCost, Range, Firerate (Damage is automatically decided)
What this would do is: Let's pretend a weapon is attacking at 0.1 per second (LASER) (counted as .33 in the formula)
It would do: 88.8% of the damage it currently does
Same for fear... flamer...
Now, weapons attacking at 1 per second:
106% more DPS then before... a bonus of 6% damage just for being slower.
Weapons at 1 attack per 1.5 second:
120% more DPS... Might help to see some new weapons around... Slower hard hitting weapons...
Only exception to this I can really think of is Energy Torpedoes... I really don't want those to do 20% more DPS. I'd probably reduce it's cost to 2650 (high enough to prevent scout torpedo combo).
Also, there needs to be some kind of factor for multi target weapons such as Light Fantastic and FireArrow... I virtually NEVER see firearrow being used... the reason is quite simple... let's pretend we have 2 heavy tanks... they both run into each other and use their ult... The tank with firearrow just lost 66% of it's DPS cause it has only 1 target left... the 1 with rocketswarm still has it's full DPS...
Anyway, think I've put enough into this... let's see what the others think.
Re: Weapons - horselance - 2008-06-16
Quote:The tank with firearrow just lost 66% of it's DPS cause it has only 1 target left... the 1 with rocketswarm still has it's full DPS...
You should play more games as i always say, then write in forum plz. This weapon dont need to attack different targets. It has 3 projectiles and can attack same target...
Re: Weapons - DerSatan - 2008-06-17
slow fire rate has an advantage you didnt mention. its the reason why energy torpedos counter scouts pretty well for example.
slow firerate results in high absolute damage. that means, you have to be aware that the next shot may kill you, even if you are at relatively high HP. you may take the risk, but if you dont get a real advantage taking that risk, you will retreat, because there is a chance that one shot kills you. and often enough, it does.
high firerate indeed results in less damage lost (overkill=1000 damage to a target which has 10 Hp left). but it is way better to calculate for your oponnent. imagine a weapon with 0.00001 seconds cooldown. its pretty much like a damage aura which's damage depends on how many targets are within range. its absolutely predictable, and doesnt spread much fear around.
to stay at exaggerating examples: imagine a 8k weapon at 1300 range which attacks heroes only. (pretty much like death magic). what would be if that weapon got 0.01 seconds cooldown? every enemy would retreat in time, because its very simple to dodge a kill by that weapon.
now imagine that weapon got 1 minute cooldown. you will prolly kill every enemy with one shot (i didnt calculate it, but i suppose it will). got it?
generally:
high firerate=better creeping and more predictable for you and your oponnent
slow firerate=worse creeping(->overkills), but less predictable and depending on luck a bit, spreading fear and lucky kills (remember: lucky is relative, you will have bad luck as often as luck). especially combined with high range, its seems to be more dangerous against player vehicles.
Re: Weapons - Felli - 2008-06-17
Low Firerate can also mean very good farming. For Example the Tornado Summoner kills many Creeps instantly if it hits them.
A fireballcannon can spread its hits to 5 creeps and you dont get any kill.
And if you want to Conquer a controllpoint with 2 Tornado Summoners and someone Teleports to you he gets 900 Dmg instantly and after 2 seconds again 900 what kills many opponents.
Re: Weapons - Carcharoth2 - 2008-06-17
Felli its Mathamtic.
Small damage amounts are better for farming.
Huge better for killing
In your example, the weapon which hits 5 different creeps can sometimes kill all 5 creeps, your tornado only kills 1 creep
The reason:
Some of your damage gets lost.
Example:
One creep for example has 50 HP left, then your tornado kills it. 400 Damage lost.
The small arrow with 50 damage (doesnt know the true value) kills him exactly and makes the rest damge to other creeps.
Re: Weapons - NoobStrike - 2008-06-17
I did push your 8k 1300 range example to the extreme...
It would do 24,000 damage once every 1 minute. With hero only, it would drop to 18,000...
It's the hero only stat that makes this look awesome... the same cannon at 24,000 would have a VERY poor killing and VERY poor farming rates. Hero only concept in a game such as BT is obviously someone you have to keep in mind...
If you want to push the hero only concept to an extreme... Make that:
DPS = 8000/15*1000/4000*.75 = 100 DPS
DAMAGE = 100 * 120 seconds (2 minutes) 12,000... there you go, you can 1shot heavytanks and demontanks at a rate of 1 per 2 minutes within a 4,000 range (higher then teleport range)... Now remove hero only and this weapon ain't worth mentioning... it will most likely kill 1 creep per 2 minutes and that's it.
Bursts of damage would be useful if they actually could allow you to '1shot' people... fact and the matter is you do not 1shot people as soon as everyone got tier 2 tanks... energy torpedos can still kill heavy tanks... but it takes for ever and unless you are able to get the tank in a situation where he pushed too far from his next creep wave... this won't happen.
Quite honestly, I don't care so much, I just think slower weapons need some love, specially is BT is all about farming.
Re: Weapons - RedNova - 2008-06-17
This is the reason some of us (me included) take multi-hit weapons, because their farming potential is greater. But they still retain all their lethality when face by a single opponent (over a CP, for example).
And, if you like mathematics, one could argue that a slow hitting but hard hitting kills more QUICKLY than a fast firing one. Here's why:
A => 100 damage, 1/3 second fire rate. (much like rocket swarm)
B => 300 damage, 1 second fire rate. (much like ice cannon)
Suppose both tanks have 1200 HP, and that range is not a factor. The moment they enter in range each weapon discharge, so at second 0 it's 100/300. At second 1 it's 400/600, at second 2 it's 700/900, at second 3 it's 1000/1200. Slow weapon wins. 2/3 second later tank A would have won, but it's dead before that.
Now, there is only a 33% chance that tank A get two shots BEFORE tank B, therefore which would make tank A the winner. And 33% for one shot, which would still make tank B win. So 66% of the time tank B is the winner. Clearly an advantage...
But in the game, fast weapons are usually way below slow ones in term of damage, about one-fifth of the damage, and faster in the same proportion. So, a clever slow-hitting tank (with ligthning magic, ice cannon, and others) would try to inflict at least ONE shot before engaging the other tank, thus getting the advantage early. In that situation, the tank A is very clearly disadvantaged because it would "start" the combat with nearly 70% of it's life. To even things, the tanks A would have to inflict 4-5 hits. With creeps around, damage distribution is even, so if tank B sees that two shot missed, he knows he can't win and disengage early. If he's lucky, he will rake one more hit and by the time he would fire next, his opponent would most likely killed a few creeps, therefore ensuing that his next shot will have an even greater chance of hitting (and killing) him.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
And like derSatan said, there is nothing more pleasing then seeing you lose you HP fast but steadily, only to see your opponent explode near instantenaously because he only took a few hits from you. Or see others panic because they just realized that you can kill them in your next attack because the first one took of more than 50% of their hit points. And if they scream about it, pure bliss ensues...
Re: Weapons - horselance - 2008-06-17
I love Infernal cannon, It does 1250 damage which means it can kill a creep in one shot. Laser for example, spread fire too much so you need to stay near enemy creeps for long time to kill them (100dps to 8 creeps ex > average hp 800 so 8 seconds). But your creeps can hit and kill your enemy creeps nerfed by laser.
Actually Slow weapons need an agile player and agile tank. So you can play hit - and- run tactic probably with a Flying Tank. That's what I call "fly like butterfly - sting like a bee".
While your permanent damage source (laser ex) hit me 3-4 times I hit you one time and damages: 320-1250
And If you are good enough to count your projectiles, you will always inititate a fight with your projectile. Thus you will have a initiate damage +1200 in this condition.
So every weapon (long range/low range - spread/instant) has a tactic.
Re: Weapons - horselance - 2008-06-17
Quote:A => 100 damage, 1/3 second fire rate. (much like rocket swarm)
B => 300 damage, 1 second fire rate. (much like ice cannon)
Rocket swarm has a range of 1000 and ice cannon has a range of 600, Rocket will hit its target many times before entering combat.
Re: Weapons - NoobStrike - 2008-06-17
Am not saying there isn't a possible tactic... am just saying this tactics, as good looking as they are on paper... doesn't seem to work in real game.
I mean, when's the last time you saw someone pick lightning magic? Yet, it is in perfect line with ghost of doom or fear magic... why is it not picked? The only difference is the firerate.
Battletank is still weird to me as there doesn't seem to be any clear strategy yet. I saw pros just dominate with long range 1 game and gets TRASHED with the same strategy the game after, short ranges completely destroying people 1 game and being outdpsed by 1k range players the game after...
Also, as for multitarget weapons... your comment is completely wrong... These weapons suffer massive DPS lost... FireArrow hits 3 targets... if you have but 1 target to fire at, you just lost 66% of your dps. The other 2 arrows just don't get fired. So, if you fight 1on1 at a CP with FireArrow and light fantastic, you lost 66% of your DPS from FireArrow and 50% of your lightfantastic DPS... Obviously this is a special case scenario which doesn't happen often.
Anyone know if multitarget weapons get any kind of bonus DPS? I would say no as the multirocket is 6k and 3 rockets is 2k x 3.
Re: Weapons - DerSatan - 2008-06-17
NoobStrike Wrote:Battletank is still weird to me as there doesn't seem to be any clear strategy yet. I saw pros just dominate with long range 1 game and gets TRASHED with the same strategy the game after, short ranges completely destroying people 1 game and being outdpsed by 1k range players the game after...
that just proves there is no best tactic, which is good as it is. its about how good you are, how you control your equipment etc.. if thats weird to you... dunno.
NoobStrike Wrote:Also, as for multitarget weapons... your comment is completely wrong... These weapons suffer massive DPS lost... FireArrow hits 3 targets... if you have but 1 target to fire at, you just lost 66% of your dps. The other 2 arrows just don't get fired. So, if you fight 1on1 at a CP with FireArrow and light fantastic, you lost 66% of your DPS from FireArrow and 50% of your lightfantastic DPS... Obviously this is a special case scenario which doesn't happen often.
Anyone know if multitarget weapons get any kind of bonus DPS? I would say no as the multirocket is 6k and 3 rockets is 2k x 3.
unfortunately, you have no idea what you are talking about, and are completely wrong yourself.
if a multi-target weapon like fire arrows only has 1 target available, all projectiles of that weapon fire at that target. i cant see any damage lost. your quote is like saying 2 basic magics cant hit the same enemy. just think about it again.
Re: Weapons - Exodus - 2008-06-17
Just to confirm it, its true that every shot of a multitarget weapon can hit a single target.
Each item has an assigned ability which shots, multitarget weapons just have more of these abilities. So its true that they are nothing then two or 3 weapons in one.
Rocket Hail for example is nothing more, then 3 Bombarding Rockets.
Re: Weapons - RedNova - 2008-06-17
Noobstrike, the fact that multi-hit weapons can target the same target with all projectiles is proven. For example, if there is 3 targets, the three arrows can target one, two or three targets, but you still fire three arrows. The thing is they are stacked exactly one on top of the other, so you can't count them by eye.
As for my example, I clearly stated that range was equal. These are example weapons, but based on the damage output of others. The example was to illustrate maths on rate of fire only.
As for why some are less taken than others, half because of price (some price range are seldom used, like 4444 versus 5050. Usually pricier weapon is chosen.), half because of play style (personnal preference).
EDIT: Wow fast responses today!
Re: Weapons - NoobStrike - 2008-06-17
I'll have to test this multi target up... never seems to kick in for me :p. Like FireArrow really seems weaker DPS wise then similar price items when down to 1 target. Might just be me hating this fire arrow.
Re: Weapons - Vomitus - 2008-06-19
I personally never buy rocket swarms. I prefer Fire Arrows for its higher dps and for multishot ability. 370 dps is significantly greater than 300 dps of swarms and slight lack of range is perfectly compensated by dps. I use heli and mostly have speed advantage what also compensates shorter range. And I don't like plasma waves because they are not multishot and they suffer more significant effective damage loss when fighting in crowds.
Also using fire arrows I can surely kill running away enemy with low hp(50-100 hp) just flying into horde of his creeps inbetween which he is fleeing out. I have greater chances to hit him with fire arrows. Swarms has smaller chance(because their effective spread is lesser than those of FA and because of their greater range which means they will hit more creeps) and also lesser dps. Plasma waves have even more less spread and you can die before you even hit your enemy once.