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+--- Thread: Sky Fortress Overpowered (/showthread.php?tid=2081)
Sky Fortress Overpowered - xenocide85 - 2008-06-05
Hi everyone,
I was just playing a game which finally made me mad enough to post this, though I've felt this way for a while. I was a level 25 Infernal somewhere around 94-13 (K:D) playing against a team whose best player was about 43-21 (K:D) and a level 21 Sky Fortress. Our specs are as follows:
Me
*****
Level: 25
Tank: Infernal
HP: ~28,000
Net DPS: (1777+975+975+975+~300) = 5000
Cost: (6750+1500)*3 + (15000+5000) + (5000 + 2500) + (15000) + (18000) = 85000
Cost: (x3 Flamer + Upgrade) + (Darkness + Upgrade) + (Gold Hull + Upgrade) + (Ult Pack) + (Infernal Cost)
Him
*****
Level: 21
Tank: Sky Fortress
HP: ~21,000
Net DPS: (1388+874+874+874+~300) = 4300
Cost: (5555 + 1700) * 3 + (11000 + 2750) + (5000+2500) + (15000) + (16000) = 74000
Cost: (x3 Poison + Upgrade) + (Blaster Cannon + Upgrade) + (Gold Hull + Upgrade) + (Ult Pack) + (Sky Fortress Cost)
Now considering the fact that I also had money, had bought 10 batteries (4000) and that my tank cost 2 more upgrades than his (we both upgraded before the forces got that far) which is an additional 3400, it should be apparent that his build is is anywhere from 10,000-20,000 cheaper than mine, or approximately 15-25% less.
Every single time we fought, both starting a full hp, including a few occasions where I was next to my CP and my barricade, he was able to beat me. It wasn't until I saved, traded a flamer for a frost laser and saved an inventory slot for nets, was I able to beat him, and then it was only barely. I was able to take out 3-4 of his team mates at once, 2 of which were bots. My ratio was about 7.2:1 while his was near 2:1. So my question is this: How is the Sky Fortress fair? It should be obvious this is not an issue of skill levels, I was kicking way more ass than he was and throughout the entire game until he got that tank. My teammates were, however, terrible, as were his. Anyways, I think that the stun on sky fortress is way way way OP. I couldn't even use my abilities - he would just wait until I popped infernal rain and then stun me for 5.4 seconds and immediately stop it. If I tried to use my Infernal Teleport, even if the graphic started, as long as he clicked his stun ability, I was frozen for 5.4 seconds. Perhaps if I played with Dota keys and the map developers didn't set the Teleport Item hotkey to something retarded, this wouldn't be quite as bad, but that's besides the point.
Also, nets should never be considered a fair counter to a tank like the SF b/c no player should have to sacrifice an inventory slot for a chargable item that late into the game JUST to ALMOST even the odds against a less skilled, worse equipped opponent.
I petition that you nerf the sky fortress's abilities. Not only is it OP 1v1, but it just takes 2 or 3 mediocre players as fortresses and even the best player with x3 to x4 as much gold in a titan can't do anything. It's stupid. Either make it cost more or make it not so OP, please.
-xenocide85
PS I would post the replay file of the game but a fatal error occurred, see the bug page...
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - TKF - 2008-06-05
Well, if you we're a titan, you could lose against sky fortress ultimate! The ultimate makes you stuck, no abilities, dps to 0, whatsoever.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - Prog - 2008-06-05
It's not overpowered generally. It's just strong in 1v1 or 2v2 fights (like antigrav), but in 3v3+ Infernal is way stronger, so it's quite well balanced for 5v5.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - RedNova - 2008-06-05
It's the kind of skill that is either nearly useless or extremely deadly. It's how you use it, or more precisely in your case, how to prevent it.
As I see it, this skill is like the grav tank ultimate: when used in the right situation (1v1 mainly), there is very little hope for your opponent. But it can be utterly wasted, as for example the victim receive assistance from a team mate, or you are forced to use it to counter a channeling spell (like rain of chaos of infernal).
So far from personal experience I found it useful, but not in a game breaking way. In the situation you described, it was the perfect counter to you because you were the only viable opponent and discarding the others, that left most situations in a 1v1 context. I'd choose this tank in a 1v1 context anytime myself.
I had battle of 2v2 sky fortresses (plus others), and it quickly became something like a close game of poker where you had to bluff, counter and ensnare the others strategically. I loved it, because it involved skill and anticipation over monetary value. We lost, but I'd like to see this all over again!
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - xenocide85 - 2008-06-06
"It's the kind of skill that is either nearly useless or extremely deadly. It's how you use it, or more precisely in your case, how to prevent it. "
kind of like how weapons are either useless or extremely deadly depending on whether or not you... use.. them. (that's sarcasm in case you can't tell) that is a horribly weak argument. And the only way to prevent it is to run, which you can't always do, and doesn't make for a good argument anyways... what a fair game, all you can do is run. The only ways to prevent it is to be a sky fortress or an anti-grav. period, and anti-grav sucks in comparison.
"As I see it, this skill is like the grav tank ultimate: when used in the right situation (1v1 mainly), there is very little hope for your opponent."
That is completely not true. The grav tank ability makes a tank invulnerable for the duration of the ability. The sky fortress completely stuns them AND lets them get hit by everything for the entire duration. In fact, I've had my noob teammates on numerous occasions use the anti-grav's ultimate to prevent me from finishing a kill. In most games I play in, I usually have more weapons, HP, and better abilities than the grav tank. So when I wake up, I usually kill them, teleport if I'm low on HP, or continue about my business b/c a lot of gravs use it to get away.
"But it can be utterly wasted, as for example the victim receive assistance from a [A.] team mate, or you are forced to use it to counter a [B.]channeling spell (like rain of chaos of infernal)."
(A.) What kind of argument is that?? "no xenocide, the sky fortress's ability isn't over powered b/c you can be double or even multi-teamed..." wtf man... ok let me digress what if you had TWO sky fortresses vs. any two other tanks... point and case thank you.
(B.) That's actually a huge asset. Whenever you want, you can cancel their best AoE damage ability. In fact, it's fucking amazing because when youre fighting, as soon as they pop infernal rain you stun them and poof it's gone and they are dead (b/c they can't do anything for 5.4 seconds and you hit them for the entire duration).
"I'd choose this tank in a 1v1 context anytime myself."
me too...
"It's not overpowered generally. It's just strong in 1v1 or 2v2 fights (like antigrav), but in 3v3+ Infernal is way stronger, so it's quite well balanced for 5v5."
That's just not true though. First of all, you almost never have a game where all 10 players are skilled, decent, competent or even not afk. BUT, if you want to make the assumption you are playing against highly skilled players that work well in a team, the sky fortress is still far better. Not only do they just have to coordinate their stuns (lets assume they are lanning, on ventrillo, or just perceptive) so that any time one of them casts an AoE they interrupt it but they are also already better 1v1. So to recap, they can cancel all mass aoe (minus orbital command) and they can selective stun team members x5 for 5.4 sec, disabling their weapons. They can pick off anyone, at any time, and beat them 5v5.
At any rate, a very large part of this game is played on the 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and in my experience, 1v2 and 1v3 level. That's where you get most of your kills, that's how you get ahead, and that's how you maintain your momentum. I don't think it's well balanced for 5v5. Additionally, if you're playing in a game where there are only one or two strong players on team A, all the crappiest person on your team has to do is buy a sky fortress, put 5 points into the broken ability, and snare him whenever your team draws near him. GG. It is completely broken.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - RedNova - 2008-06-06
Well if you cant get your teammates to defend you, then effectively being alone against someone who took the right tool to counter you is aggravating. Never tried it, but I think a single stun spell does the trick. And besides, I rarely killed someone with above 15k HP with this technique, because of weapon range, creeps and just simple teamwork.
It could use a little nerf (mainly about the time, about 20-30% less should be good), but overall I find the skill a lot less effective than the way you describe it. Different experiences with it probably.
Besides, I even WELCOME such a skill in the game because it provides a counter to tanks that are so powerful they can go solo against the entire opposing team. With such a skill in the game, they need their teammates again.
As for the grav tank, I think you greatly underestimate it. My point is not to compare, but to illustrate that no matter what skill is used, when used at the right situation and correctly, can be a certain death. Some are useful in certains situation, useless in others.
But of course any argument that involves TEAMPLAY in a TEAM GAME as a basis for countering tactics should not be used. How inconsiderate I am. It's like saying buying teleport breakers to prevent exploders from wasting your team is a valid argument against a exploder, or actively protecting weaker members of your team is time well spent. (sarcasm off)
So, in short:
- Move as a team (dont be alone, with stunners if able)
- Get more HP (through hulls or better tanks, 15k HP+ recommended).
- Hugs your creeps
And there you go, the skyfortress goes from 1v1 rape artist to normal 16k tank. Which is always dangerous.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - DOGG1 - 2008-06-07
I agree. It shouldn't disable weapons, that's just silly. The fortress (because it can fly too) is a top tank-hunter with a teleport pack. TP in, disable someone, own them before they can shoot back. Way too imba...
i wrote about it too
8.44 sky fortress lvl10 & scout's tower
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - xenocide85 - 2008-06-07
LOL ok rednova, you little forum troll, let me spell this out for you... aside from the majority of what you just said making very little sense and not being entirely consistent with your previous post, I want to focus on this golden nugget:
"But of course any argument that involves TEAMPLAY in a TEAM GAME as a basis for countering tactics should not be used. How inconsiderate I am. It's like saying buying teleport breakers to prevent exploders from wasting your team is a valid argument against a exploder, or actively protecting weaker members of your team is time well spent. (sarcasm off)"
You're argument is stupid because you're basically saying several things: (a.) well if you get outnumbered you still lose so it's not OP, (b.) 5v5 if there's only 1 or 2 sky fortresses, you CAN still lose so it's no OP.
(a.) any tank, not matter how op, is going to have a hard time severely outnumbered. but if you have a tank that's even 1.5x better than another tank and costs 25% less, that's already OP b/c it's not fair 1v1 and it's not fair if all your team members use it. There's not qualification for that tank like 'you have to be losing' or 'you have to have a bad K:D ratio'. Since anyone can get it, it's OP.
(b.) you're saying that SF isn't OP b/c it sucks when you only have 2 of them vs. 5 infernals (with 3 other tanks). That should not be the comparison point, the comparison point should be how do 5 SF stack up against 5 infs? Secondly, if you have 3 infs and 2 sf and went to fight, the SF would still kick ass b/c in addition to directly countering 2 infernal rains thereby effectively making it 3 infs vs. 3 infs when it comes to aoes, they disable 2 infs for 5.4 sec where they have ZERO firepower. It's fucking broken.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - JpOO - 2008-06-07
I wont type much. I think its overpowered.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - Prog - 2008-06-07
SF ulti stops via Chaos Teleport, so in team fights normally it is really not that strong.
But as you don't seem so accept this, show us at least one replay where SF imbalance wins the game and we cannot find any other mistakes as the reason for the loss. I don't think you can find any such replay.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - Althend - 2008-06-07
Quote: you little forum troll
Typing that makes you being a troll.
I agree the ultima is a bit overpowered but it is someway compensated by the slowness (and this slowness piss off) of the sky fortress. In order to balance it. I suggest giving a bit more speed for the skytank, making the aimed tank by the ultima being able to use his skill (not his weapon), reducing a bit the duration of the skill.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - Vomitus - 2008-06-07
JpOO Wrote:I wont type much. I think its overpowered.+1
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - RedNova - 2008-06-08
Well, since your basis of interpretation of overpowered is only in 1v1 comparison, and no amount of argumentation will make an point involving teammates will work, you still have not countered in the least my other points, namely HP and creeps.
Matter of factly, I've lived the situation of figthing 3v2 with two SF as opponents (and a trader in the background) and while they tried their hardest they never were able to get me with their ultimates. Because:
1- My teammate helped. (And I helped him in turn)
2- I had creep cover.
3- I had a lot of HP.
For the record, we lost the game but it was mostly due because they had an enormous creep advantage. If I'd kept the replay I would have gone and showed it in this thread, showing, as Prog said, that how matter hard they tried to net us it was to no avail. They did succeed a few time on my teammate, because:
1- I was in the base mopping creep (he tried to get weapons in the center shop)
2- He was not covered in his creeps.
But he had much HP, so it took two of them to get him.
Worth mentionning that I was sky fortress myself. Even using my ultimate mano-a-mano did nothing, I was never able to get all necessary ingredients for that "OP" kill mentionned here. It takes a whole lot more than just using the skill to kill someone. All my experiences seeing and using it prove that much. It is however, hard to drive home with words alone, especially if your own experiences were inescapable deaths to you or targeted by you. It seems like I'm part a minority though based on the others posts, though. Still I stand by my conclusions.
Lastly, if trolling is defined by actually trying to debate with arguments without attacking the other party, then I wholly embrace the title.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - horselance - 2008-06-09
5.4 seconds of stun+disable weapons is extremely too much.
Must be at most 4.0 seconds or even less up to 3.5!
edit:
Quote:Horselance wrote:
-Worst thing is Titan has only one abilty that can hit air... Where Infernal has 3 abilities so this can make infernal much valuable than a Titan. Because why Titan was good is : it is good vs ground. And its only opponent is infernal (was). Now this changes many thing.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - fido1 - 2008-06-10
I spent quite some time reading all these post.
From my point of view, i agree with Prog, this tank can be countered.
1. Telebreakers if he is using tele+ultimate trick & ur noobies team mate dont bother to stun or ur noobies team dont have any stunners. SF is basically weak if his ultimate is being countered/stunned.
2. Have a few stunners on the team, if they are not that noob & bothers about team play.
BUT, i agree that this tank is overpowered for $16000. Too cheap. Dont agree to the reduction of stun duration (it will become useless when reduced). I suggest increase the gold and armor upgrade for purchase of this tank to 20000/20 respective. For that price, it would refect a better value of what a SF is worth.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - DerSatan - 2008-06-10
sky fortress isnt that overpowered. it got a very strong 1v1 ultimate, but i think its HP skill and its bomb-dropping skill arent really great. also, it is damn slow. you should always see the tank as a whole, not only one skill which you think is too good/weak.
think of the demon tank. his lava shot is really great, far too good i think. but on the other hand, his other spells arent that powerful, so overall that tank is ok.
if you still think sky fortress is too good, we could either increase the cooldown of the ultimate a little bit, or give the tank he trapped in his ultimate a magical damage reduction. about 20% - 33% maybe.
but overall, i think that we have to gather some more experience with it. in arranged high-level games, i dont think its that great (as its strong in 1v1), and in publics, you rarely get a balanced game until sky fortress becomes available.
my opinion
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - horselance - 2008-06-10
It is not a matter of price. It is a matter of duration.
4-5 seconds is mostly the duration of 1v1 combat with melee weapons.
You say: "play as team" but you think that your enemy will play 1v5? They can have as much Sky Fortresses as your infernals!
Every tactic can be countered if you assume the fight is 1v3...
Think that your enemy starts hunting you 1v1 matching same enemies all time. 2v2 3v3 dont matter if you fight together, but they always use that abilty on their arranged matched enemy: blue takes orange all time, red takes green, purple takes gray etc... They dont also need tp because they can use turbo speed to get you.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - Frechheit - 2008-06-10
horselance Wrote:It is not a matter of price. It is a matter of duration.
4-5 seconds is mostly the duration of 1v1 combat with melee weapons.
You say: "play as team" but you think that your enemy will play 1v5? They can have as much Sky Fortresses as your infernals!
Every tactic can be countered if you assume the fight is 1v3...
Think that your enemy starts hunting you 1v1 matching same enemies all time. 2v2 3v3 dont matter if you fight together, but they always use that abilty on their arranged matched enemy: blue takes orange all time, red takes green, purple takes gray etc... They dont also need tp because they can use turbo speed to get you.
Is not overpowered!
Like you mentioned its impossible Horselance. Only People who plays with Voiceserver can make that and I doubt that u play with it. In Addition to that with Voice server its hard too.
Moreover in 5vs5 Sky_Fortress is nerfed cause a stun of a chaos teleporter of the infernal and the ultimate of the skyfortress is stopped.
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - Visjeplus - 2008-06-10
Vomitus Wrote:JpOO Wrote:I wont type much. I think its overpowered.+1
+1
Re: Sky Fortress Overpowered - JpOO - 2008-06-10
Visjeplus Wrote:+1Vomitus Wrote:JpOO Wrote:I wont type much. I think its overpowered.+1
+1