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League sucks atm... - Printable Version

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League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-18

Its really hard to form good critics, because im pissed again...

League games on the qualify bots are at an extremly low skill level (nothing special ) and theres about 1 leaver EVERY game and 1 or 2 guys that get kicked. I dont mind that as you in reality just have to play 10 games of them to enter league bots..

BUT League games make me tilt all the time...
1. Leavers: The 80% system is totally useless, because with 80% of 10 Players, an average of 2 people can leave each game , and its often the case....
2. Tinkers: They kill every game. First its either an EXTREAMLY BIG DISSADVANTAGE or a very very very small advantage to have one of them in your team. (2 or more explain itself.... ) . They feed, they get every fkin creep, they nerf other player, they are lern resistant. (many tinkers buy 3 longrange weapons before they even THINK about getting a frikin hull.... even if the rest of the team nerves them to buy the hull, they refuse...)
3. Team Balances: Its a frikin Joke how imbalanced nearly 4 out or 5 games are. ( my last games all lasted for just 40 minutes, 1 hour+ games a extremly rare ) The problem is imo, that weak people play less games and never get to their real ELO, so the team with the 1500 people that are really bad , but just play lets say 10 games in their whole bt life, imbalance the games very hard. People that play more often have their estimated ELO, but newbys dont have that.

Solutions:
1. RAISE THE FRIKIN percentage, every one hast to suffer, just because of some people with real disconnects. so raise the percentage AND make a thread where people that are well known can request a HOLD on bots if they really have disconnects ( so the dont get kicked even if they fall under the % ) but shouldnt be abused!!
2.just frikin remove them, i dont mind if u let the qualify bot with the little fukers , but in ranked games they are just a pain in the ass
3.people under 10 ranked games, should be calculated as -50 ELO , so the average newby will start with 1450 elo counter, (even tough in the ranking at the homepage the counter shows the real 1500 elo) what happens here now, is that a game with bad players, newbs and good players is much more balanced! (you can do the math , the average new player will be at 1400-1450 real elo, maybe lower, but he wont come there because of the missing volume )

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS POINTS, looking forward to hear feedback

Regards, now not so anymore pissed xXBehinderungXx


Re: League sucks atm... - Ger-Dyers-Eve - 2010-11-18

Looks fine your ideas. But the percentage of stay, you need, is now 85% instead of 80%. I have no problem with a higher, but there are much players witch 80-89% and so you ave to wait hours for a full game, if you want to raise the percentage one more time.

Tinker out of league is a good idea :mrgreen:

And the balance with the ELO will come in the future, when much more games have been played.


Re: League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-18

Ger-Dyers-Eve Wrote:And the balance with the ELO will come in the future, when much more games have been played.


thats just not true,
an average player that plays his first 20 games is heavily overrated by elo,
if as many good players as newbs would start playing, than it would be balanced, but the majority of new league players will be newbs, thats a fact, so it will NEVER be balanced.

The thing is, elo is rating for skillbased 1 vs 1 games. so you cant really use it perfectly for team games, League balance it OK, but with the changes it would be much better....


Re: League sucks atm... - Prog - 2010-11-18

xXBehinderungXx Wrote:1. Leavers: The 80% system is totally useless, because with 80% of 10 Players, an average of 2 people can leave each game , and its often the case....
2. Tinkers: They kill every game. First its either an EXTREAMLY BIG DISSADVANTAGE or a very very very small advantage to have one of them in your team. (2 or more explain itself.... ) . They feed, they get every fkin creep, they nerf other player, they are lern resistant. (many tinkers buy 3 longrange weapons before they even THINK about getting a frikin hull.... even if the rest of the team nerves them to buy the hull, they refuse...)
3. Team Balances: Its a frikin Joke how imbalanced nearly 4 out or 5 games are. ( my last games all lasted for just 40 minutes, 1 hour+ games a extremly rare ) The problem is imo, that weak people play less games and never get to their real ELO, so the team with the 1500 people that are really bad , but just play lets say 10 games in their whole bt life, imbalance the games very hard. People that play more often have their estimated ELO, but newbys dont have that.


Ad 1: At first: It is 85%. The problem here is to find the thin line between providing an anti-motive for frequent leavers and still give people the chance to play league with not 100% stable connections and when they do have to leave once in a while due to non-game circumstances. I’m not sure if 85% is perfect, but I find it reasonable. It would be interesting to see the statistics of the average leaver per game, but I feel like it is not too high to get interesting games (1-2 leavers in a game do not necessarily destroy games, even though they might do so sometimes).

Ad 2: You seem to be very biased against tinker players. I do think they learn, I am in the opinion that they can give a team a real advantage and I don’t agree that they kill every game. Also I was in beta 17xx points tinker without “getting a frikin hull” in about 90% of my games.
(You could argue I’m also biased towards tinker in a positive way, which is probably true.)

Ad 3: So I reconstruct your argument as this:

1) People with few games are close to 1500 and not close to their real elo.

2) Game balance treats those as if their real elo was 1500.

3) People with less game in general have a real elo below 1500.

Conclusion:

4) The team with more players with ~1500 and few games is at a disadvantage.


Do I get your argument?


The basic rebuttal is quite simple: (3) is just not true. A player with 0 games and 1500 elo has not a determined real elo whatsoever. He could be bad, but he could be a smurf of some top 3 player, who wants to snipe another top player with his low elo. You are not justified to claim that those 1500 elo 0 game guys are “newbys”. As soon as we treat them as having a worse real elo for the balance function we get a better grasp of some of the new players (the part who is really bad), but as well we seriously underrate other 0 game players (the good players and therefore also smurfs) a lot more than we do right now. We need to have a balance within this circumstances and the only good way of keeping all possibilities of being super-pro or being a bad player included is by treating them as being of “average” elo, which is (neglecting the stat % factors) 1500.


Re: League sucks atm... - daCe - 2010-11-18

this league is the unbalanced league I know. unfortunately :cry:
it recognizes the fact that people constantly complain :o
the game is TOP.the idea to make a btanksleague is TOP.the balancesystem is :?


Re: League sucks atm... - Prog - 2010-11-18

daCe Wrote:this league is the unbalanced league I know. unfortunately :cry:
it recognizes the fact that people constantly complain :o
the game is TOP.the idea to make a btanksleague is TOP.the balancesystem is :?

Please elaborate on that.

Just claiming "unbalanced" is no help at all. xXBehinderungXx at least formulated an argument and pointed out why he does not agree with our current solutions of problems for any bot-league. I still think our solutions are to be prefered, but the problems he recognizes are there and are not easy to deal with. You on the other hand just rant without any usefull input.


Re: League sucks atm... - daCe - 2010-11-18

there is nothing to explain. It is simple fact that something is not right. I lose 5-6 games in a row, because I have the deluxe noobs. why do I only have one player in my team, the game can be? in the opposing team has at least 3 or more to the game. you have to lose only 100 times, at least 2 good players in the team?maybe the system should the kill-death stats add up, and then the team balance


Re: League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-18

sry guys that i will write my arguments on this thingy in german, as this is ma native language and i can point out better what i want to say.

Nach sagen wir mal 500 Spielen, mit der gegebenen anzahl an aktiven guten spielern haben ein großteil der guten spieler schon mehrere Spieler absolviert und sich in der Theorie ihrem "realerem" ELO angenähert. Mit steigender anzahl der Spiele steigt die zahl der spieler die immer näher an ihren durschnittlichen elo kommen immer mehr an (wenn man ausgeht das spieler sich mit der zeit auch verbessern). Jedoch wird das verhältnis ab dann von UNKNOWN spielern viel stärker zu schlechten spielern gewichtet sein, die gerade mal so ihre 10 games absolviert haben, als mit spielern die fake accounts erstellen und in wirklichkeit weit über 1500 elo liegen.Diese neuen spieler werden dann zu einer großen wahrscheinlichkeit: a) schlecht spielen b) nicht zu regulars werden c) btanks quitten ohne ihrer wahren ELO jemals zu erreichen. SPRICH, sieh imbalancen JEDES spiel das sie spielen!!!!! Wohingegen die regulars ihre spiele nicht imbalancen, jedoch mit der durch die schlechte ausgangsverteilung ausgehende imbalance leben müssen.

Eine lösung wäre es ab 1000 League games (oder meinetwegen 1500 oder 2000 games ) Spieler mit einer gewissen minus Elo berechnung downzugraden.

PS: hab daces post noch nicht gelesen

beispiel: Man könnte Spielern in der Balance berechnung ingame (aber nur dort) beim ersten Spiel -50 ELO anrechnen, beim 2ten spiel -49 ect. nach 50 spielen sollte der Wert soweit durch den skill beeinflussworden sein, das der Start ELO minus ganz verschwinden kann.
Bei einem guten spieler würde der effekt nach 6-8 spielen weg sein, da er dann im schnitt so 35-40 elo points gemacht hat (also fake accounts von sehr guten spielern)
Mittlerespieler, werden bei diesem system eh nicht stark beeinflusst, das sich ihr wahrer ELO bei 1500 befindet, und immer so um 50-80 ELO punkte um 1500 schwanken wird, also auch hier keine verschlechterung
Bei schlechten und feedern allerdings, hat es vom ersten game an ausgleichende wirkung. Start mit 1450 berechnungs elo und nach 10 spielen wovon 7-8 verloren werden, ist der wert so niedrig, das auch hier eine krass verbesserte balance auftritt.

Habe jetzt nicht zeit um vorzurechnen warum spieler ab 2000 games im schnitt newbs sind wenn sie beginnen, aber ich denke das sollte nachzuvollziehen sein!


Re: League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-18

Prog Wrote:Ad 2: You seem to be very biased against tinker players. I do think they learn, I am in the opinion that they can give a team a real advantage and I don’t agree that they kill every game. Also I was in beta 17xx points tinker without “getting a frikin hull” in about 90% of my games.
(You could argue I’m also biased towards tinker in a positive way, which is probably true.)


Pls dont compare such extremy diffrent things, you creep like hell, make teleports to escape attalery , rockets or ultis, you know how to stay in range between 1001 and 1300 ..

now tell me that the average tinker player in league has this abilities....

if youd like, i could save replays with tinkers ruining the game from now on (sometimes its not really that obvious but lateron you see that the 2 middle players will missabout 2k gold from creeps! )


Re: League sucks atm... - Prog - 2010-11-18

xXBehinderungXx Wrote:[...]

The point you miss is that the damage done by a real 14xx treated like a 1500 is way lower than the damage done by a 1700+ player treated like 1450. The 1700+ player has nearly no chance at all against someone good smurfing with a balance-elo of 1450 and he will lose like 13-20 points (which can be 2-4 wins). In all my league games I never had a single game in which I felt I lost because some real 1450 player has 0 games and hence 1500 elo, but I did lose some games to smurfs or just real good players starting with league. The possible effect is simple: Noone at top keeps playing, but instead they go smurfing and try to catch other players from the top who are not careful enough. Obviously a league in which the top players are not playing is something noone wants. So concluding: 1450 balance-elo at start would just be too much of a benefit for smurfing and therefore inducing higher smurfing frequency.



Also at the tinker argument: The average light tank player is terrible as well, but we don't ban light tank, right?


Re: League sucks atm... - Althend - 2010-11-18

Quote:Also at the tinker argument: The average light tank player is terrible as well, but we don't ban light tank, right?

You now he is much more less a problem and at least know he has to change tank ^_^


Re: League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-19

Prog Wrote:
xXBehinderungXx Wrote:[...]

The point you miss is that the damage done by a real 14xx treated like a 1500 is way lower than the damage done by a 1700+ player treated like 1450. The 1700+ player has nearly no chance at all against someone good smurfing with a balance-elo of 1450 and he will lose like 13-20 points (which can be 2-4 wins). In all my league games I never had a single game in which I felt I lost because some real 1450 player has 0 games and hence 1500 elo, but I did lose some games to smurfs or just real good players starting with league. The possible effect is simple: Noone at top keeps playing, but instead they go smurfing and try to catch other players from the top who are not careful enough. Obviously a league in which the top players are not playing is something noone wants. So concluding: 1450 balance-elo at start would just be too much of a benefit for smurfing and therefore inducing higher smurfing frequency.



Also at the tinker argument: The average light tank player is terrible as well, but we don't ban light tank, right?


and in that point i disagree

1350 elo players who are really really bad, as bad as feeders, can imbalance whole games when countet as 1500. i ofter loose to a team of 5 mediocre players without a weak spot agains, 2 good players and 2 mediocre players and a very weak spot...

but i see i cant convince uSad


Re: League sucks atm... - AGGInator - 2010-11-19

hint:
the best balanced games i ever played were the last games of beta phase. i think the balance work if we give it enough time to establish.


Re: League sucks atm... - Ger-Dyers-Eve - 2010-11-19

AGGInator Wrote:hint:
the best balanced games i ever played were the last games of beta phase. i think the balance work if we give it enough time to establish.
Mh... the reasons are obvious for this *g*


Re: League sucks atm... - AGGInator - 2010-11-19

vote: i don't like u :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Re: League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-19

Because you love me right Wink ?


Re: League sucks atm... - Ger-Dyers-Eve - 2010-11-19

xXBehinderungXx Wrote:Because you love me right Wink ?
Althends second account? :mrgreen:


Re: League sucks atm... - xXBehinderungXx - 2010-11-19

why everyone thinks im a fake accountSad

makes behindi sad :'(


Re: League sucks atm... - ArGoLi - 2010-11-19

cause you steal althend phrase xD
or his gay way to write^^
and btw.
is althend german? xD
i always see him but nearly never play with himTongue

and to you prog:
i understand most of your points but most tinker really suck^^
there are some who know how to play tinker right and that really can help e.g. to conquer the hill in mid
but unfortunatly there are sooo many who just choose tinker because its the easiest way to creep at the start =(
and it really sux i hate it to play middle because of that...
and your argue with the light tank...^^
althend say light tank players know how to change tank or that they have to do xD
their are so funny IDIDOTS in some game who thinks to buy troop command with 2-3 basic magics vs a thunder tank is intelligent xD


Re: League sucks atm... - Frechheit - 2010-11-19

Tinker -> No Teamplay -> when tinker player is good he creeps all troops -> No Hp sharing -> no possibility to cover control points

To League:

Well i dont expect much cause the average player in bt league is just a big noob. you have to depend only on yourself thats the way.

When you are angry and have time to learn sth then play dota. ( More skilled gamers).

Just hoping with Sc2 that stronger players will appear.Smile