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+--- Thread: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC (/showthread.php?tid=2472)
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Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Exodus - 2007-10-15
Hey guys,
since it seems like most of you think that the Troop Command still is too strong, we were thinking about how to change things to balance things out.
First the upgrades, the idea was to seperate the Force Upgrades every 5 minutes from the player upgrades. So you will only be able to upgrade Creeps summoned by players. As a little bonus, there could be a chance that special creeps spawn each wave (with auras etc.), also the requirements would depend on these player upgrades. So actually would have to buy them to get access to the stronger items and not just wait until the force researches the upgrades.
At the same time I think such requirements should be added to the TC, too. At first I didn't do that because some players wanted to have the TC available at start (to have another start tactic available), but I guess that should be changed.
(And here a translation of the explanation of the latest Troop Command change)
Regarding the delayed spawning, because of that change a trader just can't fly to you spawn all troops directly next to you, which is very dangerous, especially in the beginning. The same applies when a TC-User is close to you, you have now the time to get away in time before they can destroy you (it takes 2.5 seconds to spawn the troops right now). You always have the time to decide whether you want to fight anyway or to retreat. Of course its not the best way when the enemy just startet spawning (I know that it can be lethal to wait 2 seconds, but like I said, you have the time to decide if you want to fight or not).
Another example, when someone's defending a Control Point its not uncommon to buy a Reinforcement because you are alone or outnumbered. Normally you just had to use it and got instantly an effective shield against the enemy, but when they spawn one after another you take more damage while they spawn and eventually die earlier.
Well, what do you think about it? Nothing of the first part has been implemented yet, I just thought I'll give you the oppertunity to see whats planed and to give feedback about it.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-15
If I understand you right, you suggest to remove the upgrades the force performs every 5 mins, right? I prefer it would have been reduced to 1 upgrades instead of 2 every 5 min.
I still want that the force is still able to upgrade every 5 minutes, but perhaps you can reduce the upgrade rate to 1 as it was before. 2 force upgrades is a bit much. So the items which requires upgrades can be available after a long game or they become available faster if players choose to hasten upgrades. The -noup mode would be kind of stupid if you suggest removal of automatically force upgrades. The interesting part of your idea was the % chance of bonus waves. But I have another solution to it, what if you add custom value, that prevent dice spawns.
I was thinking of adding a third upgrade which the force never upgrades, but only players can do. This could give an increase of creep waves.
Current upgrades:
Attack (1500) - 30 levels
Defence (1500) - 30 levels
New upgrade suggestion:
Production Upgrade: (2500) - 30 levels - (As for the level selection (rush), this is totally unaffected)
Increase the spawn amount with 10%. Gives 2x reinforcements.
So if you upgrade 2 times, every 5th time the normal CP spawns creeps, 2 additional marines comes. Same with the factories in base. The system is controlled by custom unit value (I guess the factory structures don't use that now in BT, right?) so if you have upgraded the production upgrade 2 times, 2 custom unit value will be added to the factory, when the custom value reaches 10, it's being subtracted with 10 and 1 additional unit will be spawned. As for the factory in base, the factories spawn 1+ of all kind of units they usually spawns. As for the player factories, they only get randomly perhaps 1+ zeppelin/commander/artillery or 2 marines or similar solution, not 1+ of all units so the player factory wouldn't be so imba. The upgrade requirements of items I still find as a good idea.
What about this spawn wave suggestion? Or the % buildup idea instead of dice roll?
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Summary:
I like 1 upgrade instead of 0 every 5 minutes
I would like steady spawn rate instead of random dice roll spawn based on %
Perhaps implementing a third upgrade feature if it seems like a good idea
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Exodus - 2007-10-16
It's not quite what I meant.
I was thinking about two different kinds of upgrades already. The mentioned Force Upgrades every 5 minutes (which a player will not be able to increase) and the player upgrades which will only affect Creeps summoned by a player and not the Force. But because that seems quite weak there was the idea to give a chance to spawn a special creep each wave (which in this case could also be summoned by the Force, don't know).
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-16
Ah, ok. Yes do seperate the force upgrades from the ordinary creep upgrades and allow players to only upgrade creeps spawned by the player. I like that idea. Make force upgrades unavailable from the player and implement player upgrades that only affect creeps spawned by the player.
Exodus Wrote:But because that seems quite weak there was the idea to give a chance to spawn a special creep each wave (which in this case could also be summoned by the Force, don't know).You mean like for example there is a chance every time you apply a player upgrade to spawn a special creep each wave? Which creep would that be? Would it add a 5%? chance for every upgrade that the creep wave would send 1 extra special creep? Implementing this in the new player upgrades? Well I'm not against it. It could be a force owned special creep that perhaps is strengthen from the player upgrades (a small force tank or something?).
Could the special creep be?
Tank (mini light tank, 2 food)
1200 hp
700 range
300 melee dmg, 3s attack cooldown, splash attack
TKF Wrote:I would like steady spawn rate instead of random dice roll spawn based on %Instead of adding a % chance that a special creep would be spawned on each wave, why not use a integer counter? 1 player upgrade, spawn 1 special creep every 20 spawns? additional upgrade, every 10 spawns or something like that? Add a 5 integer count for every upgrade for every spawn, when it reach 100, it's susbracted from 100 and a special creep is spawned on each lane wave. It's unfortunate it a team get lucky with the % chance bonus spawns :S. What do you think? Does average joe understand 5% easier than 5 production points of 100 for a bonus spawn?
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Summary:
By all means seperate the upgrades from force upgrase, doesn't bother me.
Player upgrades only affect player creeps, I'm fine with that suggestion.
Special creep? Tank creep?
What if the production points was used to get a special spawn instead of % chance or getting special creep every wave when you have upgraded?
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Batto - 2007-10-16
Well i am not quite the developer like you guys, but here is my question: if you separate the creep upgrades the way you said (force upgrade - player owned upgrades), then wich upgrades do you need for the special items/weapons that need a specific level of upgrades before you can buy them.?
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-16
Making the force upgrade go automatically every 5 minutes and not available to the player, this only upgrades the force, and make the player upgrades which the player can upgrade, but only affect your own creeps.
It would be obviously the player upgrades would be the requirements for the items, but I wonder if it's possible to combine the tech count of both systems, so the 2 force attack upgrades would stack with the players 1 attack upgrade = 3 tech upgrade when checking the tech requirements for items. So tech items after time would be available after some period of time.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Exodus - 2007-10-16
Well, I don't know what kind of creeps should spawn. The original idea was to implement creeps with special auras, like movement speed bonus, life steal or whatever.
I don't like the idea to generally increase the number of creeps spawned each wave, since the number of creeps is already high and causes lags for some players. Thatswhy I thought about a chance to spawn such creeps every wave (so the chance is applied every 20 seconds and not when you are buying an upgrade, the chance will increase of course with every upgrade)
@Batto: We can choose which upgrades we want to have as requirements. So we could have both upgrades or just the player upgrades as an requirement. So it's just a balancing question how we want to do it. Some people said that the requirements are kinda obsolete when the Force is upgrading too and making these items available after some time. When we now take the Force upgrades as the required ones, we could just take a start delay for these items instead and save the trouble.
So I'd suggest taking the player upgrades. Of course it would be more difficult this way to get these items but I guess this would be ok.
@TKF: this is possible
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Batto - 2007-10-16
Well, i think it is best to make it creeps with auras like you suggested exodus, because like you said, there is already enough lagg in games.
Regarding the upgrade requirements: both have disadvantages:
1) the force upgrades count: you can only wait until a given time that the force has upgraded before you can buy the items/weapons, so yes, it is more like a time limit.
2) Player upgrades count: then all will want to buy a factory/tc because otherwise their upgrading doesnt help them in any way (except that they get a rather expensive reinforcement). Ie.: 1 player buys factory, all upgrade player creeps to get good items, that 1st player benefits a whole lot because of the upgrades, others only loose money.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-16
The aura seems like a good idea.
In 8.28, I have to wait 25 minutes before I get access to orbital control, my favourite item. After 25 min the enemy probably have changed into stronger tank/hulls and kind of to late :/. Not upgrading and making item never available will kinda suck. You have to upgrade 5 times manually before you can unlock this item, making the price, 7500 gold for the upgrades + the 5000 gold for the item.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Exodus - 2007-10-16
Batto Wrote:2) Player upgrades count: then all will want to buy a factory/tc because otherwise their upgrading doesnt help them in any way (except that they get a rather expensive reinforcement). Ie.: 1 player buys factory, all upgrade player creeps to get good items, that 1st player benefits a whole lot because of the upgrades, others only loose money.
Thats right, this is the main problem with this new concept. I was trying to think about something useful but I couldn't come up with a good idea :/
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - psycho_dmr - 2007-10-16
tc & factory creeps arent effected by upgrades...?!
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Exodus - 2007-10-16
Does "player controlled creeps" sound better? TC and Factory creeps are affected by player upgrades.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - psycho_dmr - 2007-10-16
hm? you're searching for a solution for the "i bought upgrades, now i want tc" problem, why should be tccreeps then be affected by upgrades? Oo
nvm, player controlled creeps is okay, so tc, players factories and reinforcement ...
(but this is again not my proposal exo, i've never talked about impossibilites to upgrade troop-creeps!)
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-16
TKF Wrote:It would be obviously the player upgrades would be the requirements for the items, but I wonder if it's possible to combine the tech count of both systems, so the 2 force attack upgrades would stack with the players 1 attack upgrade = 3 tech upgrade when checking the tech requirements for items. So tech items after time would be available after some period of time.This is the only solution I got to make TC available in time, combine the tech check of both force and player upgrades so the TC can be bought later, or earlier if someone upgrades. Otherwise the first one who takes the initiative to upgrade will be the upgrade loser who had to make a sacrifice in gold cost.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Prog - 2007-10-16
In my opinion the changes on tc are enough and it doesn't need to be nerfed any more(especially requirements would be rather bad). I dislike the idea of different upgrades or special creeps as well. The game seems quite balanced right now, so why should there be such big changes?
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Vomitus - 2007-10-17
Exodus Wrote:Well, I don't know what kind of creeps should spawn. The original idea was to implement creeps with special auras, like movement speed bonus, life steal or whatever.I propose Greatly-Healing Aura(for creeps only) as a variant. This will cause a small creep crew to grow(while new forces will come to the seat of battle) and be quite devastating force.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-17
Bonus auras that I can think of could be great healing aura like Vomitus suggests, or attack speed aura. Movement speed will only sort of sepereate the force and outrun the reinforcents that are outside of aura range. I think Life steal would be strange. I can think of healing or attack speed aura which can be applied. Who would receive such aura? The Commanders?
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Batto - 2007-10-17
If they have the auras, will it be that tanks benefit from those auras too, or only the creeps?
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - Exodus - 2007-10-17
Like I've said, its a question of balance. But I guess they should only affect creeps.
Re: Future Changes regarding Upgrades und TC - TKF - 2007-10-17
Attack aura cannot affect tanks as it's don't have normal attack. But the healing would be to imba for tanks. I think the aura should only affect the creeps.
Perhaps try this idea in the map and if the feedback about it is horrible and many players don't like this, it's always possible to go back to the old upgrade system. I must try this out myself and experience the effect of it before I can say more about it.
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1 possible negative feedback could be: Upgrades don't affect the force creeps. This sucks. How can we beet the enemy when the force troops on each team are exact as strong as the other. I always upgraded the attack and defence to make our creeps stronger. w** is this ****. **** ** **** "bleeeep"
1 possible positive feedback could be: As long as the force creeps doesn't get insanely strong by upgrades, I'm happy. finally the losing team can no longer delay our winning by insanely upgrades and make us suffer!
And probably much more...