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+--- Thread: Increasing overall game time (/showthread.php?tid=3127)
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Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
Hello Folks,
I am just wondering after the Bug vs Boozers Game if the time limit of 1h 30min is maybe too short.
The crucial game time is often between 50-1h when the players change tanks to infernal /sky fort or sth.
So u only have something about 30 minutes to kill base in case of capturing all cp points or at least 1 mid cp.
In my opinion thats not possible if the other team is at least a little experienced in playing bt.
My suggestion is that you have to make 1 decision game in addition to that or increasing the game time to 2h.
Well i am hoping for other views and opinions.
Please BTT Team dont see this as a critic.
I just want to make a suggestion to improve the overall gameplay.
Greetings.
RE: Increasing overall game time - griffin1987 - 2012-02-20
I've watched the stream from about 55 mins onwards (was playing btt right before that as well) and I think Boozers could have won the game if they just had a bit more teamplay and would have tried to attack more often. So, I actually disagree with increasing game time. We also only got infs at 1:05 in our game and had won the game at 1:13 - which means, it took us just 8 minutes to finish the game from after getting infs.
Also, according to what I've seen in the results thread till now, it's the only game so far with a tie.
.50
(2012-02-20, 08:44:43)Prokrastinat Wrote: Hello Folks,
I am just wondering after the Bug vs Boozers Game if the time limit of 1h 30min is maybe too short.
The crucial game time is often between 50-1h when the players change tanks to infernal /sky fort or sth.
So u only have something about 30 minutes to kill base in case of capturing all cp points or at least 1 mid cp.
In my opinion thats not possible if the other team is at least a little experienced in playing bt.
My suggestion is that you have to make 1 decision game in addition to that or increasing the game time to 2h.
Well i am hoping for other views and opinions.
Please BTT Team dont see this as a critic.
I just want to make a suggestion to improve the overall gameplay.
Greetings.
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
Because until now it was the only game where the player skill were somehow identical overall.
Maybe i am wrong but i didnt saw balanced game until now with exception of Bug vs Boozers.
Moreover please imagine following DRASTIC game situation.
Team A tool all Cps.
Team A nearly destroyed whole base with exception of two laser towers because opponent put 6 repair robots in tower.
So before the last Attack the 1h and 30mins ran out.
Means Draw. Is it really that representative?
I mean ok there is the Kill-Death Tiebreaker but well. Not satisfying for example for Boozers right?
RE: Increasing overall game time - gozo1985 - 2012-02-20
oldscotch was hard to play they had better stats when we started attack the CPs (+2 or +3 kills ahead) after we got the CPs it was even up stats and they bought also repair moduls (2x) for a tower... be creative... buy facs up the armor.. buy bombs they dont even had a chance backdoor or hold the base long enough just becouse of consequent atacking base. and the big tanks where also even up: 3x inf vs 2x inf + 1 skyfort.
your game was really even and as you can see at 1h 30min theres was no big edge for one of the team so this could have end in a titan war 2h++
so if you increase the game length this also ended in a draw 99% for sure
calm down it was a great game to watch. what i excepted and i missed in the rules for a draw situation is the one with more CPS (all in all, captured ones and with base) should get +1 point extra... so 2 points for draw with more CPS and 1 point for the "losing" team holding their base 1,5h
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
Your view is correct, Gozo.
And i am not angry or sth.^^ Just wanted to hear opinions.
But as you said our game would have ended in titan war.
And somehow i think all players are not satisfied with the result of not finishing the game so not to know how the game would have ended. ( why we even have game limit?)
Its just a little sad that comeback games will not be possible with the time limit.
In the end its a little sad that the rules are not that perfectly well-thought.
Now its too late for changing.
RE: Increasing overall game time - gozo1985 - 2012-02-20
yeah your right if you only get 1 point for a draw (even if your team has more kill but that sucks... even if you have more CPS!) it seems not a perfect solution. But its like in soccer games a draw sometimes is OK and sometimes unfair an nevermind both teams not winning 1 point than losing 1 or 2 points. A +1 rule for the winner in a draw would be great imho. but its too late to change that i guess and it would be unfair to do that, even if i think it will be ok and a good solution.
i hope there will be a second half where you can face your played opponent another time. but i also think thats not planned - and a 0:3 team maybe getting bored.
we will see...
RE: Increasing overall game time - Grana - 2012-02-20
First of all it was a very cool game 8 good players and the draw was the decision of it. After 10 - 1 we were to bad^^. But i cant understand why we couldnt end the game for fun? Can somebody explain me?
RE: Increasing overall game time - FirePhoenix - 2012-02-20
@Grana:
As the referee of the last game BuG vs. Boozers I didn't continue this game after 1h 30min "for fun" because the replay will be uploaded. So some players who are gonna watch the replay can be confused about it ("Why they are keep playing ... I thought the group-games are after 1h 30min draw")
I personally wanted to continue this game but rules are rules.
RE: Increasing overall game time - progg - 2012-02-20
I think the time well lot of players will whine about 90min rule will come.
I can imagine a game when 1 team has all cps. It's like 150-100 in kills. 2nd team has both towers down. 1st team is sieging the castle. castle is almost down. BAH. 1:30. Draw!
RE: Increasing overall game time - olivercamel - 2012-02-20
@FirePhoenix
What u did to end the game at 90min was perfectly right, because the game replay will be uploaded. Also because i have to count the kills/deaths at exactly 90min. Without ending the game at that time, it makes the calculation harder.
@Prokrastinat
>So before the last Attack the 1h and 30mins ran out.
> Means Draw. Is it really that representative?
A draw is a draw, no matter how well 1 team is playing. Even if the opponent team's base is almost killed, with only 1hp left at 90min, the game is still a draw. It is like in the soccer game. It is draw if it is 0:0, no matter if one team controls the ball for 90% of the time or shoot 100 times.
@everyone
I want to take this chance to explain the rules 1 more time.
1. At group phase, 4 teams in a group. 2 of the 4 teams will go out. It is like 50% of the chance, and not that difficult for a good team. So if your team really deserve it, you should be able to manage to get 1st or 2nd somehow. Simply 2 wins + 1 draw, or 1 wins + 2 draws your team will be likely to go out of the group.
2. The concept of "draw" is needed. Otherwise, if a team loses in the first 2 games, the chance to get to the 1st/2nd rank of the group will become very low (close to impossible). In this case, the 3rd game will become meaningless. But with draw game, the teams can have closer points, and the 3rd game will be also very exciting. Like the case in group A now, both Boozers and BuG have to be very careful for the remaining 2 games.
3. The "draw" is also designed to introduce more uncertainty at group phase, i.e. less predictable and therefore more fun. Because with the draw it can benefit weak teams, if they can plan a tactic to defend well for at least 90min when facing to a strong team (similar in soccer games too).
4. The limit of 90min is designed to make the "draw" happening more often. (I used to define the draw game at 1hour). If the draw can hardly happen, it makes no sense to have it.
5. The limit of 90min is not too short. For a good team, if they are obviously better, (or prepared), they can manage to win within 90min. The game OldSchool vs. OldScotch was a good example. I watched the game, and at 1 hour i was also thinking this gonna be a draw game. But OldSchool made it by good team attack. So, i believe 90min is enough for a team to claim themselve a good team.
6. And most important, the tournament has started already. So we won't change the rules anymore. The BTT rule has been published since 2011-12-07. If you guys have questions, you should've done that much more earlier.
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
Answer of oli in rules thread:
@Prokrastinat
Q: is it bad if you win your game faster? (less kills)
A:
(1) A win will give 3 points to the team. It is always good to have a win.
(2) Only the "kill-death" is considered. If you want to delay the game on purpose, just to get more kills, at the same time you are also risking to die more. So overall "kill-death" may not change too much.
(3) On the other hand, if you delay the game on purpose, the weak team will have more time to come back. Maybe after they buy big tanks, to make a win will become impossible at that time. So you are risking "3 points => 1 point" to get more team kills. For me that's not wise choice.
(4) In the worst case, a team can always do "-giveup" to refuse giving more deaths.
Q: What to do if the opponent team give up after 20minutes?
A: If they give up, they lose the game, the other team wins 3 points. Should be a good news to have an easy win, isn't it?
Q: different line-up? (not to compare)
Or only the kill/death difference in that one game each other is counting?
A: The overall team "Kill-Death" of the 3 games at the group phase will be used for ranking, i.e. the sum of the team kills of 3 games minus the sum of the team deaths of the 3 games.
Please again keep in mind, the "k-d" is only the 3rd factor to rank teams.
===============
@everyone,
The team kills/deaths are counted by the sum of the player kills/deaths
So if a player killed by creeps, it doesn't count as a team kill, but count in a team death of the other team.
Or if a player is killed by mate, e.g. bomb from skyfort, it is also not a team kill, but count in as a team death.
Sorry but for me its not reasonable regarding position 2,3, and 4.
Request feedback and more opinions.
RE: Increasing overall game time - olivercamel - 2012-02-20
@Prokrastinat
What do you mean by position 2,3,and 4?
And why do you think that's not reasnoable?
RE: Increasing overall game time - LoveComesAgain - 2012-02-20
And what about Final game will take only 1:30h or will be full game?
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
1) The possibility to delay a game too increase the killcounter ( dont see risks here)
2) The fact that the games are not at the same time (information advantage)
3) The negative aspect of winning fast = less kills because other indicators are not important
4) Your answers are not deep enough and NOT based on facts
RE: Increasing overall game time - LIoOoOoIL - 2012-02-20
well, really good players/teams "are able/could abuse" this kill/death szenario in the "worst case".
I mean, if u got the- mapcontrol/all cps captured- u can force try kill explizit 1 player of the opponents, and still can manage a win bevor the 1h30min mark is reachd (thats really just in the worst case... ).
so a win after 20mins as example after the opponents "-giveup", would disadvantage the winning team : P
so, woulndt it be better if the k/d "ratio" get counted? (u cant compare soccer or other sportarts with BT)
Also whats not luckily, that Captured CP´s get not counted in the endranking.
Loosing teams are not forced try capture CP´s back (and risk more deaths), just the winning team got the risk, by try winning the game.
This shouldn´t be a personal critic, its our fault didnt noticed this bevor the BTT started (personally i didnt gave that much attention to this rule-section).
But maybe, we could improve the Ruls for the next BTT (if it will proceed).
greetings
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
Thanks Loool.
As i said in the opener i just want to show the still not clear parts.
If someone feel offended i am sorry.
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prog - 2012-02-20
Even if there are ways to play especially for a good k/d ratio, that is also a skill (with the risk to draw).
More important: Changing the ruleset now while the tournament is already running is a bad idea and keep in mind that draws are only in group stage possible.
RE: Increasing overall game time - LIoOoOoIL - 2012-02-20
(2012-02-20, 17:05:58)Prog Wrote: Even if there are ways to play especially for a good k/d ratio, that is also a skill (with the risk to draw).
More important: Changing the ruleset now while the tournament is already running is a bad idea and keep in mind that draws are only in group stage possible.
of course, a change while the tournament is runnig is unacceptable, cause there would be a unfair dis/advantage for all teams
this why "But maybe, we could improve the Ruls for the next BTT (if it will proceed)." : P
RE: Increasing overall game time - Prokrastinat - 2012-02-20
But to let it be is unfair too.
But i accept the statement and and want to thank for the feedback. :-)
RE: Increasing overall game time - olivercamel - 2012-02-20
@ Prokrastinat
>> (1) The possibility to delay a game too increase the killcounter (dont see risks here)
Yes the possibility is there. But you DO have a risk. You always have a risk before the win is in your pocket. It is just for a very pro team, the risk is very low. But for a not-that-good team, the risk is higher.
I believe for those very pro teams, they really don't need to care about to get extra kills by delaying the game. They care about how to win the game. Even though they can get extra kills, it won't matter much because the win already help them to rank up. And I believe for 90%+ players, when a win is there, they'd take it for safe. Not to risk it to get more kills, because you can never predict what's going on if you risk.
>> 2) The fact that the games are not at the same time (information advantage)
I can hereby announce already: the 2 games of the same group at round 3 will start at exactly at the same time.
>> 3) The negative aspect of winning fast = less kills because other indicators are not important
I still don't see why a fast win is bad. Yes, you may lose some kill counts, but more importantly you get a win and receive 3 points. As said before, with 1 win + 2 draw, you very likely already have enough points to go up for next phase.
>> 4) Your answers are not deep enough and NOT based on facts
I think my answers may not deep enough to cover all situations, but they are based on 90%+ common experiences of BT. As least in the 1st round, I don't see any team trying to abuse BTT rules. (They might do this now as you reminded them). On the other hand, I think your questions are NOT based on the common senses but based on very specific special situations.
@ LIoOoOoIL
>> well, really good players/teams "are able/could abuse" this kill/death szenario in the "worst case".
>> I mean, if u got the- mapcontrol/all cps captured- u can force try kill explizit 1 player of the opponents, and still can manage a win bevor the 1h30min mark is reachd (thats really just in the worst case... ).
>> so a win after 20mins as example after the opponents "-giveup", would disadvantage the winning team : P
See my comments for Prokrastinat's (1).
>> so, woulndt it be better if the k/d "ratio" get counted? (u cant compare soccer or other sportarts with BT)
I don't see why k/d ratio is better than k-d difference.
>> Also whats not luckily, that Captured CP´s get not counted in the endranking.
>> Loosing teams are not forced try capture CP´s back (and risk more deaths), just the winning team got the risk, by try winning the game.
Yes, captured CP doesn't count. As my example before, in the soccer game if you control the ball 90%+ time, it doesn't count also. (And yes, soccer is a different game, but the spirits between the games are the same.)
It is true that attacking is always more risky than defending. It is true almost everywhere. You can happily wait for a draw with low risk, or fight for a win with higher risk. But to get a win (2 more points), you do need to risk for it.
===========
At last, one more thing I just want to kindly remind you guys:
Please consider the BTT rules have to be simple, and defined in a way everyone can understand easily.
The BTT is not only for pro players with years of experiences, it is (to some aspect more importantly) also to welcome new BT players to join, so we can prompt the BT as it is such a good game. So, when defining the rules I think k-d would be an easy factor for any BT player to understand and calculate.
If any of you can formulate the your ideas in a statement like style, which is simple and can be easily understandable by every player, and it is indeed better than what we have now, we will consider to use it in the next BTT, if any.