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+--- Thread: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it (/showthread.php?tid=3323)
tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Wupti - 2012-06-06
It seems like the new tank raider is very confusion for many players ?
Well I decided to make a "short" tutorial with some tips and advices, by showing some strategies when you play raider or against it:
Table of contents
Spell explanation
Early game
Middle game
- shortranged
- longranged
Skill builds
How to counter Raider
explanation of spells
First I will start with raider and explain for those who read the abilities but didnt quite understand them. Skip it if you're already comfortable with them
Q Spell: enables you to put a charge on anything except buildings, when the target takes damage the charge triggers and deals damage due to the amount of charges. the more charges the larger area aswell. the Q spell DOES have cooldown (12 or 16 seconds or so) but when the Raider takes damage the cooldown of the Q spell automatically resets and is ready to be used again.
W spell: you press the spell, and after 5 seconds you will heal all the damage you took after you activated the spell and until heal. How much you heal depends on the level ofcause.
E spell: after activated you gain the effects named in the spell for a small period of time, remember it's only against magic, which means it can be quite effective vs thundertank (passive aura) or airship (drones) but remember to care not and rush in because it's very low magic resistance, and damage it does if you compare to the enemies spell.
R Spell: Allows you to teleport a short distance and teleports you back to the original spot you teleported from after max 6 seconds. It is able to go back before the 6 seconds simply by press R once again, but be aware that costs mana aswell. After you clicked R and teleported and probably fight someone all the damage you take after you activated will be released in a small area right before you teleport back to your original spot. in level 1 the max damage is 2000, which means even though you take 5k damage it will only damage 2000 if the enemy tank is within the area.
That was an explanation of how the spells works. Now I will move on to some tactics with raider
Early game 15 first minutes.
How to farm?
Many people tells me that one of the hard part is to farm with the raider early game if you buy basic, but it's quite like farming with demolisher. ofcause you can buy bow if you have a hard time to farm with 1 basic, but i would recommend you 1 basic because it's crucial to be able to hurt enemy so the charge can trigger (q spell)
My advice for people who farm bad with 1 basic is to do like they farm when demolisher. I know demolisher has wave to farm with, but the Raider has Q spell aswell. 1 trick is to use q spell for farm and then let the "weaker" creeps hit you once so the magic resets etc. that enables you to farm quite easy, simply but the spell at the creeps with low hp and when your creeps damage them the charge triggers = creepkill.
how to dominate enemy?
Like always at lane, try to push your enemy to the tower, so he lose experience, and hopefully creeps badly. with the Q spell of Raider, which has if used correct 0 cooldown, it's not hard to kill creeps fast or damage enemy to low hp so he is forced to go back at his checkpoint.
At early game I personally prefer to buy 1 starshooter if my enemy is a ground tank or grenader launcher if he is an air tank, because it's easier to hit him then and trigger the charge from Q spell. Especially if he tower camps.
Remember to get hp with raider anything else would be stupid because it's easier to time the skills with more hp and timing is important with raider. I prefer to buy steel hull, but ironhull (upg) is fine aswell, especially if you change tank fast because u dont like raider
Middle game
like with any tank is btanks there's different ways of playing raider aswell, in this tutorial I will only talk about the shortranged (range 555-700) and the longranged (950-1050)
ideas for the shortranged raider
in middle game it's harder to generalize because every game evolves different.
therefore i will use some examples and upload some replay you guys can see if interested (will be done later)
despite the weapons you bought (555-700) the general idea with short ranged raider is to teleport close to the enemy with the R skill. activate the heal, W skill, right before or after you teleport with the R skill depending on when you want the heal/how much dmg your opponent does. Fly as close as possible to your enemy so when you teleport back, you're sure he's within the area of the R skill.
If you're almost dying you can always press R once again to teleport back, and then the W skill should work and heal you a certain amount of hp, so you're enable to push once again if he's low hp.
It's a good idea to buy speed if you choose the shortranged raider, or it can be hard to keep close to him, especially if you mass Q spell while trying to catchup to him.
ideas for the long ranged raider
This is for raiders with range between (950-1050). here's the generel idea to use the R skill; if the W Skill isnt timed well, if he came too close with his maybe shorter range, or to do a fast counterattack. lets say for instance he attacks you and you activate W skill. After 3 seconds you would have died, but you use r skill to teleport/retreat right before u die. Then after 2 more sec W skill activates and heal you to full hp. Right after that you press r once again and return to the location and kill him if he's low hp. therefore i would only recommend for ranged raiders to keep the ulti level 1-2 because it's not meant for rushing, but can be used that aswell ofcause. Instead i would make the Q skills higher level because you can stack more charges which is better when ranged. Creeps works well with the longrange raider, even when you R skill at enemy and need cover + damage or when he attack you, you activate w skill, when 1 hp teleport away with R skill, W skill heals you, you press R to return + creeps
Skill build
shortranged
The idea is to keep Q skill level 1 so it only cost 4 mana, or you will need mana later on. Max the R skill and W skill as much you can - it will be needed in close combat.
level 1: tankcannon
level 2: Q spell
level 3: W spell
level 4: tankcannon
level 5: W spell
level 6: none
level 7: tankcannon and W spell
level 8: none
level 9: none
level 10: R spell, W spell and tankcannon
after this just max R skill and W skill and tankcannon as soon you can then the E skill, Do NOT pick Q skill unless you use it to stack at yourown tank before you use R skill, to teleport close to enemy so the charges triggers and dmg him + creeps
longranged
the idea is to keep use R skill mainly to flee, so you can time it with the W skill.
level 1: tankcannon
level 2: Q skill
level 3: W skill
level 4: tankcannon
level 5: Q skill
level 6: W skill
etc... maybe E skill level 1
level 10: R skill
from here on keep pick Q skill, W skill and tankcannon and maybe ulti level 2-3 so it can be used offensive aswell.
How to counter Raider
One thing that many players doesnt buy at lane is actually one of the best counters early game - burst armor. it works very well vs the Q skill because the charges triggers when you take damage and so does the burst armor
another thing which can work is creeps, but be aware of the R skill, because if it's used correct your creeps are gone very fast and you might be aswell
The tank choice is very important too, even get a very fast tank like airship or heli so your speed is greater and range him, or get a nuking tank like thunder, heavy or demon, because stun can be very nice, and makes it harder for the raider to time his skills.
if you choose heavy be aware that you dont missile + ulti combo, so he R skill right before missile hit him and teleports right next to you and kill you.
You can also buy teleport, to flee when he R skill next to you. The bad thing is he can but teleport too
the last thing i can remember of is to buy breakers, so he get caught in it when R skill, but can't remember whether breaker works or doesnt work against it.
If you have any questions or suggestions please write them here and i will try to answer the best i can. Replays will be uploaded soon, if anyone want me too.
Best regards Wupti
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - warrior_cobra - 2012-06-06
hi dear wupti
thanks alot for the effort
i learned few things about the raider that might help me
about raider i think it need to be nerfed alittle. thanks agian for the efforts
best wishesabout the raider 2 spell its 4 seconds not 5 seconds
inaddition i think ghost tank might be good tank vs raider because it can drain mana
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Prog - 2012-06-06
Tanks for the effort.
About the "E-Spell": Are you sure it works against Airship drones? Those drones are invulnarable summons which attack individually dealing normal damage like creeps as far as i know. So the spell does no ordinary spell damage.
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - TazDingo@hotmail.se - 2012-06-06
You shouldn't forget that the E-skill damages attacking units as well. I dont know exactly how this works, but it helps alot vs troop commands and such, since the creeps basicly kills themselves. I also feel like it gives me quite an edge vs other tanks, since 75 dmg each time they attack you stacks up quite a bit. I usually get that before tank cannon.
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Wupti - 2012-06-06
(2012-06-06, 07:38:53)warrior_cobra Wrote: hi dear wupti
thanks alot for the effort
i learned few things about the raider that might help me
about raider i think it need to be nerfed alittle. thanks agian for the efforts
about the raider 2 spell its 4 seconds not 5 seconds
inaddition i think ghost tank might be good tank vs raider because it can drain mana
haha no problem
And no it is 5 seconds cobra. You activate the skill, and the damage you take the next 5 seconds heal you. that's why if you see after activation it counts. 1(dmg)..2(dmg)..3(dmg)..4(dmg)..5(heal/too late)
@prog
I haven't actually tested it, so im not 100% sure no, but in fight vs airships it seems like I take less dmg if they use drones after E skill activated, and they die quite fast, but maybe it's just my imagination
I will try to test it as soon as possible and change it if you are right
@taz
Quote:You shouldn't forget that the E-skill damages attacking units as well. I dont know exactly how this works, but it helps alot vs troop commands and such, since the creeps basicly kills themselves. I also feel like it gives me quite an edge vs other tanks, since 75 dmg each time they attack you stacks up quite a bit. I usually get that before tank cannon.
Are you sure about this? I haven't tested the E skill that much, because i prefer the W and R skill, but if it works against "normal" attacks and not only magical attacks, it would be quite epic wouldn't it? in level 1, it dmg 75, and if the opponent has basic magic he only damages 111, which means a gap of only 36 damage. So if the opponent has 3 basic + tankcannon and damage you around 400 damage, you would damage him 4x75 = 300 damage, without even including your own weapons. if that's true it would be an overkill indeed
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Sassspect - 2012-06-06
Really nice guide my brother Wupti.. But i want to ask one thing..
How long did it take you to finish it?:P
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Exodus - 2012-06-06
First, thanks for this Wupti, much appreciated ;)
As for Ricochet (or 'E-skill' like you call it ;) ), it returns damage everytime your own tank receives damage from an enemy, it doesn't matter what kind of damage that is, so it is also true for creeps. But keep in mind, that the 75 damage are only reflected on level 5 (not 1, like you wrote).
Also, SMA really only takes 4 seconds, the first number shows up right when you use the skill, not after one second.
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - TazDingo@hotmail.se - 2012-06-06
Ofc the 75 dmg are at lvl 5, at lvl 3 i think its like 40 something. But its still alot, it depends a bit on the weapons your opponent has, but when i have had it it has reflected about 40-50% of his dmg, which is alot. This together with the W-skill can really skew battles to your favor.
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Wupti - 2012-06-06
@saspect
Quote:How long did it take you to finish it?:P
some time, the layout took the most
@exodus
Quote:As for Ricochet (or 'E-skill' like you call it
Also, SMA really only takes 4 seconds, the first number shows up right when you use the skill, not after one second.
okay i see, makes more sense - it will be edited right away
- if admins can give me access to edit it that is, because it won't allow me to edit after a certain amount of time has passed@tazdingo
Quote:Ofc the 75 dmg are at lvl 5, at lvl 3 i think its like 40 something. But its still alot, it depends a bit on the weapons your opponent has, but when i have had it it has reflected about 40-50% of his dmg, which is alot. This together with the W-skill can really skew battles to your favor.
yea you we're right
my bad not for investigating the tank more properly before write this threadAnyway even though this guide is only a guidelines for raider i hope you guys find it useful and can use this tutorial
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Althend - 2012-06-06
Noob tutorial! There is no color inj it!
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Wupti - 2012-06-06
(2012-06-06, 20:30:47)Althend Wrote: Noob tutorial! There is no color inj it!
haha ^^
Besides I just tested breaker against the R skill but seems they dont work. since it is a kind of teleport I find that a bit overpowered maybe it should be changed? exodus what u think?
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - UnifiedDoom - 2012-06-07
(2012-06-06, 21:37:43)Wupti Wrote: Besides I just tested breaker against the R skill but seems they dont work. since it is a kind of teleport I find that a bit overpowered maybe it should be changed? exodus what u think?
Does tp breaker work against infernal tp? I see no reason to create double standards about this sort of thing.
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Wupti - 2012-06-07
(2012-06-07, 00:22:38)UnifiedDoom Wrote:(2012-06-06, 21:37:43)Wupti Wrote: Besides I just tested breaker against the R skill but seems they dont work. since it is a kind of teleport I find that a bit overpowered maybe it should be changed? exodus what u think?
Does tp breaker work against infernal tp? I see no reason to create double standards about this sort of thing.
No it doesnt, but infernal teleport is different in more than one way.
1st of all there's a warn (themeteor) before the infernal teleports, with raider it's instant like a teleport.
2nd.. the raider is also able to retreat with this teleport, the infernal needs teleport or speed to run.
3rd. infernal cost 18000 and need armor 16 while raider only cost 1850 and requires armor 0, this means that infernal mainly is used in the lategame where people have way more stuff, than after 15-16 min where the raider gets level 10.
to me it only seems fair if breaker works against the R skill, just like it works against teleport from tinker or exploder.
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - jack_acc - 2012-06-10
[attachment=1769]since we got a Raider Tutorial, i gonna post a Raider Replay here.
note:
*Just skilled charge(W), board cannon and Ricochet (E)
*weapons: 777 range laterly (of course 600- range weaps are more effectiv with the ulti, but thats another story.. : o)
hf watching
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Grana - 2012-06-10
In my eyes Raider is really strong but its not unbelievable to get them.
My tactic is to use no spells if he activates e-spell and after he heal i use it...
But this tank is really powerfull...if i see how kenny582 plays it(so far best player who uses it imo) i really cant escape and he can kill you in your own cp....
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - cRo_best - 2012-06-10
wupti is lieing he just want u all to play like this so he can kill u all easy
dont trust him his evil !
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - Wupti - 2012-06-11
(2012-06-10, 23:38:21)cRo_best Wrote: wupti is lieing he just want u all to play like this so he can kill u all easy
dont trust him his evil !
Hahahahaha
RE: tutorial for how to play with raider and examples to counter it - warrior_cobra - 2012-07-24
hi guys
about the teleport breaker i agree with wupti i think its fair if teleport breaker works against raider ulti its soo powerfull any way im glad raider is much more balanced in version 8.76 but i think its still alittle bit powerfull compared with other tanks.about infernal and raider it is too much diffrent, infernal is ajumb to stun not a teleport and as wupti mentioned raider, exploder and tinker have teleport and tele break should work against them im not sure about raider 100% but its just my opinion. hope you all best wishes