+- Official Battle Tanks Community (https://btanks.net/forum)
+-- Forum: Battle Tanks - Warcraft III (https://btanks.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Feedback (https://btanks.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange (/showthread.php?tid=3503)
Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-21
Because you dont answer on my old question i opened a new thread in the right forum with minor changes.
I am right that shortrange weapons got more damage because of 600 or lower range.
More damage for low price = less range. (tornado summoner)
More range for low price = less damage. (fireball cannon)
but the Longrangeweapons got more range, more damage and they have low prices (acid doesnt count)
The damage per seconds only count for shortrange because you have to hit everytime. (shortrange got less problems whit creeps)
But my problem is, that longrange dont hit the creeps (i dont know how big is the chance to hit someone instead of the creeps around him) but for example the fireball cannon can only hit the creeps because the enemy stay out of his range. The fireball user is surrounded by 4 creeps but the rangeweapon hit him 2 times and he have to go back to survive and only the luck of the rangeuser count if he can hit him onetime more to kill him (with rockeds from heli or dmg by creeps).
And this will stop the fun of this "map/mod". I know for this mod you need alittle bit luck but if im surrounded by 5 creeps and he only hit me with no chance to reach him im willing to ragequit after the next two death because there is no fun.
I hope this time you aswer on this thread with a good argument why rangeweapons should stay in this game.
Perfi
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Prog - 2012-09-23
You miss some modifiers, most important: less possible target-types = more damage (depending on which types it can hit or not hit).
Also: Long range exists since the very start a couple of years ago. It did not "stop the fun of the map", otherwise we would not be here. I'd even claim that btanks would be really boring without long range weapons.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-24
(2012-09-23, 21:02:59)Prog Wrote: You miss some modifiers, most important: less possible target-types = more damage (depending on which types it can hit or not hit).
Also: Long range exists since the very start a couple of years ago. It did not "stop the fun of the map", otherwise we would not be here. I'd even claim that btanks would be really boring without long range weapons.
But my problem is that you only need luck to kill the opponent. To me it often happens that I die immediately because the opponent had more luck than me and only hit me and not my creeps Because making the long range weapons hurt too much, he just needs 3 hits for sending me back.
Actually should vote yes to the balancing between price, damage, range and fire rate. But you get 2000 gold for a weapon with 156 damage and if these weapons are then bought often tilts the balance between mid range and long range. Of course, the other could now have a SteelHull or a IronHull. But he makes too little damage to the range user to kill because you can not come in his vicinity. (I speak here of the Light Tank and Heli)
And that rangeweapons often not to be used to support the team I must not mention extra or?
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Teo_live - 2012-09-25
EVERY game has an element of luck involved...
Even games like counter-strike and Dota you notice some lucky guy almost always living on 1hp. Even pure strategy games and old school games usually have some roll of the dice. Long range is a bit more of a lottery than short range yes, but it is a risk also. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't (when it doesn't expect mass-flame from people like Konors >.>). It seems you cannot handle it when the LR gamble pays dividends.
If you can't handle luck/badluck then you really should find another hobby...
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-25
The problem is: more range = more possible targets = you need more luck to kill = less skill needed
But my problem is: more DMG + more range = extreme DMG = death without any chance.
My NEW tipp:
Bombarding Rockeds: 2000 gold / 154 dmg / 1300 range / 1.8 cooldown / uppgrade 500 gold / -0,3 cooldown
Photontopedos: 3100 gold / 478 dmg / 1300 range / 3.99 cooldown / uppgrade 1000 gold / -0,66 cooldown
The Rockedhail is fair but i think alitlebit to weak for 6000 gold. (5000 gold are fair i think)
but please remove the dmg uppgrade for the rangeweapons! maybe add a new midgame rangeweapon for 7000 gold with higher damage.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Prog - 2012-09-25
More range = more possible targets = you need better positioning to reduce the number of possible targets = more skill needed.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Saiyuki - 2012-09-25
how about a change of gameplay? try to use the burst armor to go against long range users to block damage?
i'm reading your thread since some time before, but i still do not get your problem. all weapons are using the same formula as you might now, benefitting low and high range. even though it might be true, that long range weapons might have more targets possible than low range weapons at a time, but this is part of the risk when choosing this style of gameplay.
there are quite some means to go against it, either choosing some more armor, getting a speedup or summoning some creeps might help to divide incoming attacks to other units. you might need to take luck into consideration when going against an enemy but it's the same the other way round.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Exodus - 2012-09-25
(2012-09-21, 15:52:10)Perfektionist Wrote: but the Longrangeweapons got more range, more damage and they have low prices (acid doesnt count)
(2012-09-25, 12:54:27)Perfektionist Wrote: But my problem is: more DMG + more range = extreme DMG = death without any chance.
I don't get why you keep saying, that Long Range deals more damage, since it is more than obvious, that this isn't the case. Just compare the dps values between Bombarding Rockets (103), Basic Cannon (155) and Fireball Cannon (154).
They are all in the same price class, but both Basic and Fireball deal about 50% more dps.
Even when you are talking about the damage per hit, this still isn't true. So I don't see how your argument has any value, when even such basic statements are plainly wrong.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-25
(2012-09-25, 14:07:53)Exodus Wrote:(2012-09-21, 15:52:10)Perfektionist Wrote: but the Longrangeweapons got more range, more damage and they have low prices (acid doesnt count)
(2012-09-25, 12:54:27)Perfektionist Wrote: But my problem is: more DMG + more range = extreme DMG = death without any chance.
I don't get why you keep saying, that Long Range deals more damage, since it is more than obvious, that this isn't the case. Just compare the dps values between Bombarding Rockets (103), Basic Cannon (155) and Fireball Cannon (154).
They are all in the same price class, but both Basic and Fireball deal about 50% more dps.
Even when you are talking about the damage per hit, this still isn't true. So I don't see how your argument has any value, when even such basic statements are plainly wrong.
ok my misstake i forgot too mention i mean top and bot lane.
Go start a round Battletanks. Take the Heli or Lighttank (i usually use the random function but these are the problem tanks) and buy a weapon (light with fireball, heli with plasma. Go to the top or bottom lane.
The enemy took Heli and Bombarding Rockeds. The first 3 minutes are no problem. You will see what i mean. After he is level 4 (3 minutes after game start) he got rockeds with 360 dmg and he uppgraded his Bombarding Rockeds.
Before you can come close enough he hits you 2 times because he got his speedability and fly over the trees. (~600 hp left) You cant go back now because you need money from creepkills. If you go everytime back you will end with no money and will lose quickly. He hits you one time again (~400 hp left) Now you will go back but he stuns you. (-360 = ~140 hp left.) If he is lucky enough he hits you onetime again and you will die and you will think WHY HE DONT HIT MY CREEPS????
(5 minutes after game start) you got 3 options:
1. Buy a iron hull (steelhull is to expensive because he have to go back too often.)
2. Buy a weapon (not a good idea)
3. Buy a Armor
4. Change too a other lane (1. you team have to swap too, 2. the other sidelane is not a good idea because they can swap too [i dont like to swap to mid because they are tinker wiht torpedos, other rangeplayers and i like the exciting 1vs1 gameplay without rangeweapons])
Ok you will buy a armor. He got now 2 Bombarding Rockeds. They are shooting not at the same time. (happend if you buy a new one or droppit and pick it up again.)
The cd of the armor is 6 seconds (?) and the first hit will be blocked but the next 3 shots will hit you + his rocked ability = dead
Ok you will buy a Ironhull. Yeah now you survive 5 shots more. But you will go back after the half hp of you is down. = you are staying at you CP and killing the last 2 creeps. (if the tower dont steal them^^)
(10 minutes after game start) your money is 1500 or less you cant buy new weapons.
Your opponent got already a steelhull and repair his damage with the healerrunes.
Now you tower slowly die if your teammates doesnt help you.
[13 minutes after game start) you are happy to buy a second fireball cannon. you can now push again.
4 minutes later you enemy got a photon torpedo and you can go back again and uppgrade you hull. = no money left = you are now useless for you team because everyone got higher damage and 3000+ hp. = tower die = you will feed him = maybe you will be kicked = no more fun
you cant go mid because there is a havy with 900 dmg stun = feed
you can swap to the other sidelane but there you will die fast with you actuall build.
The easyest way to stop this is remove the damageuppgrade for the rangeweapons.
Then he needs 3 hits more and you can dont have to go back so often = more money = better hull/weapon
btw. the dps DOESNT count. The fireball cannon can do 1000 dps but there is no difference. Because before you reach your enemy you will die without any chance!!!
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - EarthR - 2012-09-26
(2012-09-25, 23:37:59)Perfektionist Wrote:let me give you an advice. On how you should you counter it.(2012-09-25, 14:07:53)Exodus Wrote:(2012-09-21, 15:52:10)Perfektionist Wrote: but the Longrangeweapons got more range, more damage and they have low prices (acid doesnt count)
(2012-09-25, 12:54:27)Perfektionist Wrote: But my problem is: more DMG + more range = extreme DMG = death without any chance.
I don't get why you keep saying, that Long Range deals more damage, since it is more than obvious, that this isn't the case. Just compare the dps values between Bombarding Rockets (103), Basic Cannon (155) and Fireball Cannon (154).
They are all in the same price class, but both Basic and Fireball deal about 50% more dps.
Even when you are talking about the damage per hit, this still isn't true. So I don't see how your argument has any value, when even such basic statements are plainly wrong.
ok my misstake i forgot too mention i mean top and bot lane.
Go start a round Battletanks. Take the Heli or Lighttank (i usually use the random function but these are the problem tanks) and buy a weapon (light with fireball, heli with plasma. Go to the top or bottom lane.
The enemy took Heli and Bombarding Rockeds. The first 3 minutes are no problem. You will see what i mean. After he is level 4 (3 minutes after game start) he got rockeds with 360 dmg and he uppgraded his Bombarding Rockeds.
Before you can come close enough he hits you 2 times because he got his speedability and fly over the trees. (~600 hp left) You cant go back now because you need money from creepkills. If you go everytime back you will end with no money and will lose quickly. He hits you one time again (~400 hp left) Now you will go back but he stuns you. (-360 = ~140 hp left.) If he is lucky enough he hits you onetime again and you will die and you will think WHY HE DONT HIT MY CREEPS????
(5 minutes after game start) you got 3 options:
1. Buy a iron hull (steelhull is to expensive because he have to go back too often.)
2. Buy a weapon (not a good idea)
3. Buy a Armor
4. Change too a other lane (1. you team have to swap too, 2. the other sidelane is not a good idea because they can swap too [i dont like to swap to mid because they are tinker wiht torpedos, other rangeplayers and i like the exciting 1vs1 gameplay without rangeweapons])
Ok you will buy a armor. He got now 2 Bombarding Rockeds. They are shooting not at the same time. (happend if you buy a new one or droppit and pick it up again.)
The cd of the armor is 6 seconds (?) and the first hit will be blocked but the next 3 shots will hit you + his rocked ability = dead
Ok you will buy a Ironhull. Yeah now you survive 5 shots more. But you will go back after the half hp of you is down. = you are staying at you CP and killing the last 2 creeps. (if the tower dont steal them^^)
(10 minutes after game start) your money is 1500 or less you cant buy new weapons.
Your opponent got already a steelhull and repair his damage with the healerrunes.
Now you tower slowly die if your teammates doesnt help you.
[13 minutes after game start) you are happy to buy a second fireball cannon. you can now push again.
4 minutes later you enemy got a photon torpedo and you can go back again and uppgrade you hull. = no money left = you are now useless for you team because everyone got higher damage and 3000+ hp. = tower die = you will feed him = maybe you will be kicked = no more fun
you cant go mid because there is a havy with 900 dmg stun = feed
you can swap to the other sidelane but there you will die fast with you actuall build.
The easyest way to stop this is remove the damageuppgrade for the rangeweapons.
Then he needs 3 hits more and you can dont have to go back so often = more money = better hull/weapon
btw. the dps DOESNT count. The fireball cannon can do 1000 dps but there is no difference. Because before you reach your enemy you will die without any chance!!!
buy maintenance its cheap and can heal without you need to go back to cp
If your enemy is skilled forget about getting any kill, only if he makes mistakes and focus on creeping and try to get tank fast thunder/airship/heavy.
playing against range needs patience and you will only get upper hand later in game if you play right.
other than that the only way to counter lr at lane is to buy lr yourself at this point. Sad but true and i dont know why dev team doesnt realize it :/.
Since double mech was imba and was the only way to counter lr now you have nothing.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-26
(2012-09-26, 09:26:57)EarthR Wrote: buy maintenance its cheap and can heal without you need to go back to cp
other than that the only way to counter lr at lane is to buy lr yourself at this point. Sad but true and i dont know why dev team doesnt realize it :/.
Since double mech was imba and was the only way to counter lr now you have nothing.
but everytime you spend 100 gold in maintenance. = you miss this gold later!
thats what i mean. the best lr counter is the medivac. but changing the tank after 5 minutes is stupid because you lose a lots of money.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - EarthR - 2012-09-26
(2012-09-26, 13:26:47)Perfektionist Wrote:dude you get 2 heals for 100 gold in maintenance. YOU will need it only for 10-15 min at worst you will spend 300 gold for maintenance and get 6 charges trust me you wont miss this gold later on.(2012-09-26, 09:26:57)EarthR Wrote: buy maintenance its cheap and can heal without you need to go back to cp
other than that the only way to counter lr at lane is to buy lr yourself at this point. Sad but true and i dont know why dev team doesnt realize it :/.
Since double mech was imba and was the only way to counter lr now you have nothing.
but everytime you spend 100 gold in maintenance. = you miss this gold later!
thats what i mean. the best lr counter is the medivac. but changing the tank after 5 minutes is stupid because you lose a lots of money.
As for the best tank demo and raider are way better to counter it
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-26
(2012-09-26, 16:56:02)EarthR Wrote: As for the best tank demo and raider are way better to counter it
demo? why? this tank is the slowes of all tanks
the raider is only good with his ulti
medivac can spawn token, heal himself and can be very fast
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Teo_live - 2012-09-28
Im not really sure why I am posting here it already has been said that perfektionist's suggestions won't happen. Anyhow demo is slow but he has mines, LR got almost no HP so they can't risk going on the offensive against a Demo. Medivac is good against LR purely because of speed, healing is too unreliable to count on for LR defense your main advantage is speed offense. The best counter to LR is the good old heli, your fast and you have a stun which enables you to get in range. If you have good coordination anti-grav might work with leap+stun.
I disagree with LR being a problem on lane. I personally don't like playing lane but when I am forced to do so I always notice the LR guy failing (both myself and/or the enemy). The thing is if you make just 1 mistake with LR on lane you are screwed. If the enemy is a speedy flying rodent like a heli/medivac/airship then LR is even more risky to play on sides.
The only time I find LR pawning on lane is when the enemy does abit of risky "hardcore saving" with no HP and 2 basics. If someone chooses this risk then IMHO they deserve to die.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - EarthR - 2012-09-28
(2012-09-28, 04:11:43)Teo_live Wrote: Im not really sure why I am posting here it already has been said that perfektionist's suggestions won't happen. Anyhow demo is slow but he has mines, LR got almost no HP so they can't risk going on the offensive against a Demo. Medivac is good against LR purely because of speed, healing is too unreliable to count on for LR defense your main advantage is speed offense. The best counter to LR is the good old heli, your fast and you have a stun which enables you to get in range. If you have good coordination anti-grav might work with leap+stun.actually medi has disadvantage against a lr user. it has no stun and its speed isnt that great to begin with if the range user can play well he will use the creep advantage
I disagree with LR being a problem on lane. I personally don't like playing lane but when I am forced to do so I always notice the LR guy failing (both myself and/or the enemy). The thing is if you make just 1 mistake with LR on lane you are screwed. If the enemy is a speedy flying rodent like a heli/medivac/airship then LR is even more risky to play on sides.
The only time I find LR pawning on lane is when the enemy does abit of risky "hardcore saving" with no HP and 2 basics. If someone chooses this risk then IMHO they deserve to die.
and at start nothing can beat the creep advantage, if i have more damage and kill your creep faster the med cant get near me.Heli is a good counter but heli has low start hp so after first 5 min you have to buy a hull
As for the other issue lr being a problem in lane i totally disagree.
THe ranger can only bring himself to disadvantage if he keeps buying lr at lane there is a difference between knowing how to play something and overusing it so it backfires at you. the biggest advantage you get is that you can get tank fast and creep better than your enemy and thats all you have to use it for or change from lr to mid range after 5 min. anything else and you it will backfire
and about the "hardcore saving" as you call it it all comes down to the user that does it. there are some who know hwo to play with no hp and there are other who simply doesnt. Same applies to all range weapons. The skill makes the difference not the other way around. thats why most range users at lane fail later on they get some advantage at start and then they dont know how to use that advantage
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Exodus - 2012-09-28
I haven't been idle in that regard in the last few weeks and after some internal discussions, we decided on a measure to tackle the long range situation.
Simple damage reduction is not going to work, that already happened before and had nearly no influence on the situation, since long range still keeps its advantage it already had. So we decided on the following: long range will attack buildings now, but it won't damage them.
Since normal phoenix-fire cannot be changed in such a way, long range weapons will then be based on the same skill as the Architect weapons. This required a lot of optimizations (from which the whole map will benefit), which are mostly done now. Because of this, it is now also possible to implement other changes, if necessary, but right now we want to see, how this will work out. You will see this change in the next beta version (if I ever manage to finish that in time).
The reason of the change should be obvious: make the long range weapon more situational, without completely removing its strength or making it useless.
I'm posting this here now, so you guys can already give your opinions on this change and already prepare for what is going to come ;)
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - EarthR - 2012-09-28
(2012-09-28, 09:09:32)Exodus Wrote: I haven't been idle in that regard in the last few weeks and after some internal discussions, we decided on a measure to tackle the long range situation.thats still doesnt solve the problem exodus imo. All you gain by this is that you survive more if you stay at your cp and its not like you die that much at cp anyway so it still remains a problem. You stay at your cp you lose creeps and xp to tower lr still has advantage. If you cant find a way to push lr back there will always be a problem.
Simple damage reduction is not going to work, that already happened before and had nearly no influence on the situation, since long range still keeps its advantage it already had. So we decided on the following: long range will attack buildings now, but it won't damage them.
My suggestion could be that make mechs not take damage(like the way you want the towers to work) from lr weapons only and from scouts tank cannon
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Perfektionist - 2012-09-28
(2012-09-28, 09:09:32)Exodus Wrote: So we decided on the following: long range will attack buildings now, but it won't damage them.
good idea... now the scout can be usefull versus lr
(2012-09-28, 04:11:43)Teo_live Wrote: Im not really sure why I am posting here it already has been said that perfektionist's suggestions won't happen. Anyhow demo is slow but he has mines, LR got almost no HP so they can't risk going on the offensive against a Demo. Medivac is good against LR purely because of speed, healing is too unreliable to count on for LR defense your main advantage is speed offense. The best counter to LR is the good old heli, your fast and you have a stun which enables you to get in range. If you have good coordination anti-grav might work with leap+stun.
I disagree with LR being a problem on lane. I personally don't like playing lane but when I am forced to do so I always notice the LR guy failing (both myself and/or the enemy). The thing is if you make just 1 mistake with LR on lane you are screwed. If the enemy is a speedy flying rodent like a heli/medivac/airship then LR is even more risky to play on sides.
The only time I find LR pawning on lane is when the enemy does abit of risky "hardcore saving" with no HP and 2 basics. If someone chooses this risk then IMHO they deserve to die.
my suggestion is, if you got the LIGHT TANK or the SCOUT. I usually play random. If i got the medivac, antigrav, demo or the heli i have no problems with rangeweapons. But if i got scout or lighttank and my teammates doesnt want to got top or bot i often go.
And my dmg decrease suggestion is still a good "fix". You have to buy betterweapons like torpedos to do more damage. Uppgrades only increase you dps. If you want "real" dmg you have to buy the next "weaponclass"
1. Bomarding Rockeds -> 2. Energy Torpedo -> 3. Rockedhail -> 4. ?(missing weapon)? -> 5. Acidcannon
Then rangeweapons are playable like midrange weapons. You everytime buy new and better weapons.
But now rangeplayer got EnergyTorpedos the whole game. No one uppgrade to Rockedhail because they are to weak for that price (6000gold = 2x 460 dmg (energy torpedos without uppgrade)) and noone uppgrade to Acidcannons because they are to expensive.
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - UnifiedDoom - 2012-09-29
(2012-09-28, 09:09:32)Exodus Wrote: thats still doesnt solve the problem exodus imo. All you gain by this is that you survive more if you stay at your cp and its not like you die that much at cp anyway so it still remains a problem. You stay at your cp you lose creeps and xp to tower lr still has advantage. If you cant find a way to push lr back there will always be a problem.
This I agree with 100%, this is really the main imbalance with long range currently.
(2012-09-28, 11:12:34)EarthR Wrote: My suggestion could be that make mechs not take damage(like the way you want the towers to work) from lr weapons only and from scouts tank cannon
This is really irrelevant if they can't heal each other. A couple of spells and eventually it's too risky to keep them around. While I like the idea of keeping double mech on standby as a "counter to longrange only" (which is how I used it in 8.74 anyway) they'll need some form of healing first. (20-25hp/sec passive healing should be enough).
RE: Compare between Shortrange and Longrange - Prog - 2012-09-29
Of course you can still lose creeps to your tower, that is the whole point of playing weapons which peak early game and lose in later game! If that wasn't the case, we could remove long range as well and proceed to have a basic magic snoozefest.