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3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Jayzer - 2010-05-11
Hi guys,
I play as Jayzer on the beta servers and have over 200 games in. I am new and picked BTanks up about 3 months ago. I am still not a very good player but I am learning and humbly offer my perspective on your project.
I just wanted to post some thoughts that I've had while playing. I'm posting them before I forget ^^
Impressions:
I played War3 when I was younger and stopped for awhile. Came back about 4 months ago and downloaded this map on accident- I was actually looking for a similar map but where your primary cannon was aimable like the Demolisher's artillery but also upgradable after every level. You could buy add-ons but the real test of skill was aiming and trajectories. BTanks looks the same on the outside but on the inside the skill is more in calculating DPS and efficient gold farming techniques. The map is very addictive in a "skinner box" kind of way (see http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html). It's the Warcraft III version of Hungry Hungry Hippos - eat all the small fish and run from the bigger fish. Nothing good or bad about it, that's just how the map works.
Things I Like:
1) Tank versatility. BTanks can just be about DPS but it also offers a chance for more role-based builds, whether it's to creep, gank, heal, cap, or demo. I like the variety of tanks and weaponry
2) No endless recipies. I used to play DOTA but finally lost energy because I felt like my strategy was based more on how I shopped than how I played. I like that the weapons can be upgraded without additional items, and that equipment can be combined to save slots, without making complicated recipies.
3) Defensive strategies. I like that creeps and buildings can be upgraded, and that tanks like the tinker, ghost tank, and guardian exist. I am not a very aggressive player and like to play support.
4) VERY balanced selection of tanks and weapons. I can tell that this project has been tweaked over time, much like a good fighting game. I play king of fighters and street fighter a lot and I think this article is relevant to your map (http://sonichurricane.com/articles/sfinterpretation.html) and it's a high compliment. Only that instead of button combos and juggling attacks, its build ideas and dps
Things I Think Could Be Improved:
Movement - I think that one of the flaws in this game is that movement tactics are not reflected well. In real life, as tanks get bigger they get slower, and the smaller ones are able to fight them for being more agile. but in BTanks as tanks get bigger and more powerful they also get faster. I don't like the hull idea but I do think that making the starting tanks be the fastest tanks is better than having a Scout (600hp) have the same starting speed as a demon tank (10000hp).
Teleports- One of my least favorite things about this game is the teleport ability between CPs. I think it really eliminates the strategic possibilities of outmaneuvering your opponents when there is a magical teleporter within 5000 distance in any given direction. It requires little forethought to just run to the nearest CP and tele to where the problem is. I think it's unrealistic and would make things much more interesting if the teleport function had a cooldown based on location instead of based on player (ie, if you tele from a CP the next person that teles from that same CP has to wait x seconds... think TF2), or that the cost of teleporting was also increased exponentially based on the cost of the vehicle just like bounty.
Bounty- I just think it would be nice to have an 'assist' bonus like in DOTA. I've seen a lot of players do selfish moves to try and get the last hit in (straggling to go help at the CP so that teammates can tank the damage and once they are dead you rush in to gank the kills? sound familiar?
)Votekick system- I think the only reason why people should be kicked is if they are AFK or being vulgar towards other players. However I see players getting kicked for many other reasons. For example, at the start a player disconnects (lags out) and then his team demands that the other team kick a player for 'balance'. Sometimes this happens late in game as well and I have been kicked many many times as I learned how to play for trivial things that weren't even my fault. From a beginner's perspective it's really hard to feel accepted in a new gaming community when everyone looks at inexperience as a problem : (
Profanity / Smack Talk- On the other hand, I have also been in matches where one player is far superior than the rest in kills and income and starts harassing everyone on the server... making fun of the opposing team for losing to him, and ordering his teammates around. I find that these players are much more destructive to the game but when these players have the lead in numbers their team will not kick them because they need his skill.
Instead of trying to votekick them, could the mappers use a mute filter like they do for spamming?
Maybe you could have a feature where a player can "buy" a prescripted stock insult to broadcast to the opposing team for 50 gold or something like that, but the opposing team would pocket the money? Or maybe have some sort of 'swear jar'... that each time a player made an insult, his bounty price goes higher? I used to be a server admin for my clan when I played Counter Strike and if anyone called another person a 'noob' on our server, they swapped health and equipment ^^ Just an example. I share this because I think it's discouraging to new players when they are made fun of and it reflects poorly on the BTank community as a whole.
Other Ideas:
Tank Cannon abilities- I think a lot of people overlook the tank cannon and its a shame because it should be the primary one IMO. Instead of just one button that upgrades its damage, how about several buttons that upgrade several attributes? For example
Level 1 Tank Cannon 60 dmg 1 sec 600 range
+ Level +60 dmg OR -0.2 OR +200 range
When Level 2 comes you have 3 options instead of just one... one for damage, one for cooldown, and one for range. That would mix up the game and keep opponents guessing. After level 20 you could have special effects like poison to slowly drain hp, sniper scope to target a certain player, life steal effect, who knows. Maybe each tank could have a 'cannon ultimate' ie the demo's was super effective against buildings, the medivac has lifesteal, the ghost resurrects its kills, etc.
This is probably another can of worms but I miss the fun of having to aim your primary weapon... I think the game would be a lot more fun if you actually had to aim the guns yourself and you had to rely on your hand eye coordination to gank kills more than just having a huge DPS cloud around you. Are there any maps like that still played?
Weapon variety- I would LOVE to see more effects on slot weapons. When I see all of these weapons like Molotov Cocktail, Lightning Magic, Poison Magic, Death Magic, etc., I was kinda hoping for some special side effects. Ice Cannon and Frost Laser is about as close as it gets, right? What about a weapon that had a radius of effect like a normal rocket tower? A poison or fire weapon that did damage over time? a necromancy weapon that has a chance to resurrect creeps? or guns like the TTC's ballistas that bounce through multiple targets?
I have more ideas but I'm sure everyone does haha
THE END.
If you made it this far, thank you for reading! I've only glanced over this board and I think I followed the rules but if I messed up please let me know! Thanks for a wonderul game!
j
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Saiyuki - 2010-05-11
nice feedback, just a couple of things:
# we skipped most of the realism ingame, so hulls won't slow you down or increase your armor, for example. these items takes one slot, which could become devasting in some situations, mostly in the end of a game.
# the tank canon mostly comes in handy in the early game but looses its strength on the mid game, as the damage output isn't enough. the canon system your describing would take it's toll ingame, when you only have a couple of seconds to choose the next skill and waste too much time on it. we kept it simple. ^^
# as for teleporters, you may fake a control point teleport ( short: cptp ) which can also be used by various other skills ( check the wiki ) or buy some telebreakers.
# there are some topics about the kick system and we're currently ( again ) discussing the problem about it in the devteam section. for now, maybe try to find some privat games or use the new qualify bot. this will keep the game a bit more 'leaver-free'. ;-]
# there was never ( as far as i remember ) any effect weapons and these won't ever be implemented, just because they would surely be a 'must-have-type-of-weapon', so either give all weapons an effect or leave it out completely. further more, we try to keep the system requirements for the map low, thus keeping imports as low as possible and using only a few effects.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Althend - 2010-05-11
Some interesting stuff ^_^
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - VuDu - 2010-05-11
you expect me to read this?
hock:
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Ger-Dyers-Eve - 2010-05-11
It looks longer, at it really is *g*.
I play BattleTanks since two months (or also three? I dont know
) and I have made nearly the same experience, as you told. I want to pick a point of your first post, that is really important, I think.Quote:Teleports- One of my least favorite things about this game is the teleport ability between CPs. I think it really eliminates the strategic possibilities of outmaneuvering your opponents when there is a magical teleporter within 5000 distance in any given direction. It requires little forethought to just run to the nearest CP and tele to where the problem is. I think it's unrealistic and would make things much more interesting if the teleport function had a cooldown based on location instead of based on player (ie, if you tele from a CP the next person that teles from that same CP has to wait x seconds... think TF2), or that the cost of teleporting was also increased exponentially based on the cost of the vehicle just like bounty.
I dont think it is so extrem bad with all those teleporting. Yes, it really makes the game "easier" than without teleporting, but in my opinion, the problem lies not in the teleporting. Insteadt I put the blame on the "large" of the map. For me, the map is just too small. If you have speedpack (speedboost Upgraded+Teleporter) you can "fly" within 10 seconds all over the map. It is just too small, because If you have balanced teams, to controll a Controllpoint (omg...
) goes like this:(We are in a 5 versus 5)
-> kill at least(!)2 Opponents and all your teammates must survive
-> 1 tries to lure one of the Opponents of their CP (and in the right moment to stun him, that he cannot react a short time)
-> and in all the time, there will be at least 2 CP's attaked. One will die, one will be successfull.
You need all those steps, because nearly every fight is in near of one of those 6 points at the map. In Midgame - as nearly everybody has got a teleporter - everybody can react within NO TIME, if a CP is under attak, because, he can reach his CP in nearly 0 time.
This and a few other facts (nearly all players play Killtanks and so on) kill nearly 80% of all stretegy. Pick up the lowest guy, kill him. Do it so on and if 2/3 of the enemies are dead and have respawntime >10sec, attak the CP. Then hunger them to death and win the game. Very repeptive.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Jayzer - 2010-05-11
Wait VuDu, there's more! I just remembered this one after reading that epic scron2 post about the demo's artillery shot. that guy represents the majority of btank pub players nowadays...
Air/Ground Separation- I see TONS of abilities that say 'ground only' but the only 'air only' ability that I remember offhand is the demon tank's banish. I think it would be nice to see some tanks that were designed specifically to combat air. For example, I always thought the thunder tank abilities should do more damage vs air because they are like little flying lightning rods. Anyway my point is, besides the obvious AA guns and flak, there's not anything 'air only'. It's true that sometimes I will pick a flyer based on the tanks on the enemy teams just because I know that only half of their abilities will work on me.
And I don't want to perpetuate anything, but why DO mines hit flyers? Does the antigrav tank actually make it into outer space, far higher than any normal flyer? Is that why his big ol comety tail always follows him around?
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Prog - 2010-05-11
The real anti-air item is called "net-launcher" and one of the most powerfull items in game, especially with "net-porting" (when you net an air tank with no space to land it is teleportet to your position).
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Saiyuki - 2010-05-12
as you see, Jayzer, there is more to each aspect of the game than you have experienced in those 3 months. ^^
we could discuss these things endless in here, but this would only result in straying off the topic. ;-)
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - jonjon - 2010-05-12
Saiyuki Wrote:as you see, Jayzer, there is more to each aspect of the game than you have experienced in those 3 months. ^^
we could discuss these things endless in here, but this would only result in straying off the topic. ;-)
Agreed. I really think you need to play the game a LOT more.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Jayzer - 2010-05-12
Quote:# as for teleporters, you may fake a control point teleport ( short: cptp ) which can also be used by various other skills ( check the wiki ) or buy some telebreakers.
yeah I knew all that, my point was that the game strategy is limited when it's so easy for everyone to tele around the map at such a minimal cost
Quote:The real anti-air item is called "net-launcher" and one of the most powerfull items in game, especially with "net-porting" (when you net an air tank with no space to land it is teleportet to your position).
It teles to you?? I've never seen that before! Interesting concept. How about if I'm inside my base and I net a flyer, can he tele inside?
Quote:we could discuss these things endless in here, but this would only result in straying off the topic.
What counts as on topic? I was just sharing my thoughts. I don't intend on changing your map, I was just observing
don't mind meQuote:Agreed. I really think you need to play the game a LOT more.
:( so how much do I have to play before I can just open my mouth and talk? They're just observations. If you have advice on WHY I need to play more, or can give me some tips, try to do that instead. help me out!
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Paladon - 2010-05-12
I, for myself, am thankful for sharing his observations, he clearly wants to help us.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - IlPalazzo - 2010-05-12
Jayzer Wrote:yeah I knew all that, my point was that the game strategy is limited when it's so easy for everyone to tele around the map at such a minimal cost
On the other hand, the game would feel a lot more slow paced if players had to haul themselves across the map everytime they died or went to purchase a new tank. A bit of a trade off, but overall - good for the pace of the game and it allows teams to coordinate attacks/defenses better.
Jayzer Wrote:It teles to you?? I've never seen that before! Interesting concept. How about if I'm inside my base and I net a flyer, can he tele inside?
If your opponent is over the trees or a cliff, yes. Try it sometime with a Goblin Tank, they teleport right into hammer range. :wink:
Jayzer Wrote:What counts as on topic? I was just sharing my thoughts. I don't intend on changing your map, I was just observing
:( so how much do I have to play before I can just open my mouth and talk? They're just observations. If you have advice on WHY I need to play more, or can give me some tips, try to do that instead. help me out!
Don't worry, if nothing else at all, your point of view can provide valuable feedback on how "newer" players learn the game over time and how to make the interface a bit easier. There's always things to learn, so if you have any feedback or suggestions to add don't hesitate to post them because "you're not experienced enough," it's always welcome as long as you keep it civil and willing to understand that some aspects of the game are there for a good reason.
As for learning and discussing new strategies and such, you can learn a few of them on the strategy forums http://btanks.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=48 or the wiki http://btanks.net/wiki/Main_Page . There's some good stuff on each.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - Prog - 2010-05-12
Just created a wiki entry for the Net Teleport with a short animation, which should explain it a bit better.
http://btanks.net/wiki/Net_Teleport
Otherwhise i agree with IlPalazzo, it's allways appreciated if you write feedback. On a general note (and not directly targeted at you, really in general) it's just important to be careful not to claim something is imbalanced/lame/whatever before thinking about and asking others how to possible handle it - especially if someone is less experienced.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - jonjon - 2010-05-13
Jayzer Wrote::( so how much do I have to play before I can just open my mouth and talk? They're just observations. If you have advice on WHY I need to play more, or can give me some tips, try to do that instead. help me out!
Haha no no, don't get me wrong. By all means provide feedback.
Some of your comments do have merit but there's been around 70 versions of the game. Some things are what they are for a reason regardless of realism. To be honest, I don't agree with most of the comments on movement, teleport and bounty. With movement, tanks only get faster as the game progresses because of speed pack. Scout's base speed (315) is much greater than Demons (290). And why should a smaller tank be harder to kill? If you're smaller, then you should die. Not to mention we have a problem with people saving.
I don't agree with your suggestion on applying cooldown to teleport at a control point. On the surface, it seems you have a problem with campers and hawkers but you can easily anticipate them by watching the mini map and watching the warning lights. And what about capturing CPs? From what you have suggested, it would be easy to get everyone on your team to invade one CP while the enemy force struggles to teleport in to defend. Also the more CPs you have, the harder it is for the enemy to teleport in. Remember there are 5 players on each team and only 3 lanes. In the end, CPs should be earned. The best part about capturing a CP is the planning process. I might be going off on a tangent here, but you'd be creating the ultimate dream for Ghost Tank where it invades a CP, tanks teleporting in one by one, Ghost Tank protected by summons and killing everyone one at a time. Not cool. Increasing the TP cost would be nice though. I'm always against gaining more gold. I think they really f**ked it up with 8.67 and subsequent versions with the 7% increase in bounty etc. They went all noobles on us. See now (like Saiyuki mentioned), I'm going astray.
No, to the assist bounty. I hate KSes too especially when I pull out all my specials. But there's more to support/assists than just weapons and specials and tanking the hits. There's a lot of things in the game that can be considered support/assist like creep factories, force armor upgrades, teleport breakers, barricades, factories etc. It would be impossible to factor that in.
Your other suggestions are fine. Nobody kicks on our server unless it's for excessive flaming. We don't kick for balance either. We encourage noobs to play and improve and ask questions. By teaching people, you get more players interested in the game.
Edited: For unnecessary racial generalization.
Re: 3 months of BTanks: my feedback - k-bones - 2010-06-01
I think you're trying to go too big with the assist system, jonjon
In most of the games which implement it, it just goes like this:
if you deal over X% damage to an enemy and he dies Y seconds after it, you get the assist. Nobody expects you to count tp breakers in. (As for them, perhaps there could be a little cash or xp reward for every time someone gets trapped)
oh and about the Tank Cannon concepts - I proposed similar tweaks last year and the team said it would affect performance quite badly...
I think most of the players have upgraded their Pentum II's long time ago. :S