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+--- Thread: Sky Fortress + Net (/showthread.php?tid=644)
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Sky Fortress + Net - griffin1987 - 2010-03-30
Hi,
As far as I'm concerned, being able to move with the skill of the sky fortress while being net'd is a bug. How do you all feel about it?
Reason(s) why I'm saying this:
1. Theres no tooltip stating that this is possible, neither in the net description nor in the skill description of the sky tank
2. Tooltip of net is like '... ties to the ground ...' which in my oppinion means, that the unit can not move (teleport is disabled as well)
3. Tooltip of the sky fortress says it accelerates the tank - and accelerating means increase of movement. But if movement is fixed to 0, acceleration is nullified (from a physikal point of view)
What do you think about this?
I, for one, hope it's removed in the next version, but most BUG players seem to use it rather often and say it's not a bug.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - Prog - 2010-03-30
I can just tell you what velocity2k told me in german today when i asked him:
"so n kleines Netz füs so ne große sky fort...die ist einfach zu stark
" (~such a small net for a big sky fort...it's just too strong)and further on after i wrote "ich halts für ein feature" (~imo it's a feature) velo agreed.
Got a screen from that chatlog, but i won't upload it because it's from the developement channel and we talked about things which are not yet public in the same screen and i'd need to erase those lines^^
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - Velocity2k - 2010-03-30
griffin1987 Wrote:I, for one, hope it's removed in the next version, but most BUG players seem to use it rather often and say it's not a bug.
I think i'll ignore ANY post with a (useful or not useful) reference to ANY clan in the future. Sick of these clan references. This forum is about btanks and not about any clans out there.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - ssl - 2010-03-30
Prog Wrote:such a small net for a big sky fort...it's just too strongNo i think it is a bug. The net is intended to "stun" an air target so you can shoot it. Saying "sky fortress is just too strong to be netted" is like saying "titan cannot be defeated cause it is sooo big".
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - Prog - 2010-03-30
ssl Wrote:Prog Wrote:such a small net for a big sky fort...it's just too strongNo i think it is a bug. The net is intended to "stun" an air target so you can shoot it. Saying "sky fortress is just too strong to be netted" is like saying "titan cannot be defeated cause it is sooo big".
So you are saying mappers are wrong about their own map? Notice, i just quoted one of the current mappers of battletanks and in my opinion everything which can stay in the map according to mappers is no bug.
Edit: Another note: Net is not intended as a "stun", as it does not stun. You can use all spells while netted. It just disables air movement, teleport and treats you like a ground tank. While all other air tanks have no possibility to move on the ground, the sky fortress has with the turbo boost. Using cp-teleport should be possible as well.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - horselance - 2010-03-30
ssl Wrote:Prog Wrote:such a small net for a big sky fort...it's just too strongNo i think it is a bug. The net is intended to "stun" an air target so you can shoot it. Saying "sky fortress is just too strong to be netted" is like saying "titan cannot be defeated cause it is sooo big".
hahaha
+1
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - IlPalazzo - 2010-03-30
Velocity2k Wrote:I think i'll ignore ANY post with a (useful or not useful) reference to ANY clan in the future. Sick of these clan references. This forum is about btanks and not about any clans out there.
Aye, try to keep the references to players/clans/politics away from the bug/feedback/suggestion topics. They're not banned, but it only takes away from discussion when people start clawing at each other in a flame war rather than discussing the actual problem. If it turns to that- or if people find the topic offensive- I'll move the topic/posts to off-topic.
griffin1987 Wrote:Hi,
As far as I'm concerned, being able to move with the skill of the sky fortress while being net'd is a bug. How do you all feel about it?
Reason(s) why I'm saying this:
1. Theres no tooltip stating that this is possible, neither in the net description nor in the skill description of the sky tank
2. Tooltip of net is like '... ties to the ground ...' which in my oppinion means, that the unit can not move (teleport is disabled as well)
3. Tooltip of the sky fortress says it accelerates the tank - and accelerating means increase of movement. But if movement is fixed to 0, acceleration is nullified (from a physikal point of view)
What do you think about this?
I, for one, hope it's removed in the next version, but most BUG players seem to use it rather often and say it's not a bug.
I think it's fine... Sure the Sky Fortress can boost away from you, but with the same net you can break a Sky Fortress's Ultimate. If you take that boost away from him, then two of his skills are rendered ineffective with the use of nets, which is imbalanced considering you're spending 200 gold a net to counter his 16,000 gold tank.
As to your reasons:
1. Read #3 about acceleration
2. It's still on the ground, it's just dragging along it.
3. If you want to talk physics then you should know [ v(t) = vo + at ] means if you have a static frame of reference and a positive acceleration, there is only one possible point in time where an accelerating object has zero velocity/movement... At ALL other points in time the object should be moving. If this were not the case, then the tooltip would be in fact lying, because the tank would not be accelerating.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - Prog - 2010-03-30
I just found a nice example in which it will be clear that tie to something doesn't mean speed fixed at 0 - at least with my knowledge about the english language.
Just think of a wooden stick like this: http://media.neckermann.de/bilder/g049/250/4/40/4016_p_image_c-b-c-1-1_0.jpg
Now get a rope and tie it to the stick. It looks like this (bad paint, but it should be clear): [attachment=0] As the arrows indicate, you can move the rope up and down the stick, but not away from the stick (if the friction isn't too high, but we don't need to go into details). Now set stick = ground and rope = net and you have a net tieing to the ground, but not limiting the speed to 0 (just think of a net with weights on the ends, making it impossible to fly because of the weight, but not impossible to move). My knowledge of english language isn't that good, but i think there are differences for such things in the language insofar as there are differences in "to tie something", "to tie something to something", "to tie something up to something", "tie something down to something", etc. (maybe "tie down" would be no possible movement?) as there are differences in german language with "an etwas binden", "auf etwas binden", etc. Maybe a native speaker can help here (i'm interested in those differences as my dictionary doesn't emphasize those enough).
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - IlPalazzo - 2010-03-31
Prog Wrote:I just found a nice example in which it will be clear that tie to something doesn't mean speed fixed at 0 - at least with my knowledge about the english language.
That's right, I think the wording and meaning might be the same in German and English... It's not the wording but general intuition that leads one to think that being tied/fixed to the ground means zero speed because ground itself isn't generally isn't considered moving, thus the object it's tied to shouldn't be moving either.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - Velocity2k - 2010-03-31
ssl Wrote:Prog Wrote:such a small net for a big sky fort...it's just too strongNo i think it is a bug. The net is intended to "stun" an air target so you can shoot it. Saying "sky fortress is just too strong to be netted" is like saying "titan cannot be defeated cause it is sooo big".
I wrote this in a chat and just for fun. If it was my final thought about this issue i would have written it here too.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - horselance - 2010-03-31
Web is supposed to "immobilize" the target. Immobilize means cannot change its place. This includes blink(teleport) too.
It is a different matter if you make an exception.
"Accelerates sky fortress forward and penetrates any movement inhibiting condition" etc..
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - griffin1987 - 2010-03-31
For one, sorry for the clan reference. Wasn't meant as flaming, but i also hate to say stuff like "someone said" or the like, which is why I wanted to provide at least SOME reference.
But good to know, I'll not say anything about any clan in the future, sorry 'bout that.
Also, I did not post this in the bug forum because I WANTED to hear your oppinion, as such, I like it how you critizise my reasons. I think good critizism makes for a good discussion.
After all this being said, which of the two would you consider:
1. Net works as I proposed, and sky fortress will not be able to escape it (remember, as being stated, teleport is not possible as well - if it's only "tied to" the ground, as "Prog" (i'll also use forum names from now on) said, I don't see a reason why teleport should be disabled when net'd)
2. Make it possible to teleport out of net - this would make the behaviour more consistent i think
3. Adapt the tooltip of net and sky fortress
4 = 2+3
About neting a pricy tank with a net for 200: If you don't kill the tank with that, it's 200 gold lost, no matter how costy that tank is. Also, if we make an exception for the sky fortress, it would render the net more useless than it already is.
Also, sky fortress is already able to escape stun by his ability - just try chaos teleport of infernal while fortress uses his skill. It's not stunned. Same for every other stun as far as I've seen so far. Plus the skill does damage as well.
Thinking about all these issues - isn't the sky fortress totally imba? 1. It can bomb the base, and also commit suicide with bombs. 2. It can get avoid stun and get away from nets 3. It has the longest "stun" in game (the shutdown systems skill) 4. it has massive hp
And that all for less cost than an infernal, and, what's far more important i think: It's an airtank which you can buy 2 upgrades early than infernal.
No, I don't want to flame around if that can be read into my sentences
Just wanna discuss this with everybody
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - griffin1987 - 2010-03-31
Btw about the rope + stick example:
You can only do this, if the force moving the stick sideways is able to overcome the friction between the stick and the rope.
Otherwise you can only move the stick in a circular fashion around the origin of the rope, which is also only possible, if the applied force is great enough to overcome the friction between the rope and the origin it's tied to.
And yes, I know about physics, and am already sorry for using that word, as it was just the best english word I could come up with in that context, so please don't hate me for using such an apt word in the wrong context
P.S. Sorry Inde for the flaming in the last game, I was just a bit too agitated at that moment and what I said wasn't fair or anything at all. I'm sorry for that.
Cheers
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - Prog - 2010-03-31
griffin1987 Wrote:bout neting a pricy tank with a net for 200: If you don't kill the tank with that, it's 200 gold lost, no matter how costy that tank is. Also, if we make an exception for the sky fortress, it would render the net more useless than it already is.
On the other hand we have people complaining about net being overpowered in favor of ground tanks: http://btanks.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2901&start=0
Net even makes teleporter partly unnecessery due to netporting. Everyone who played air ship against gobo with nets on the sides knows how cruel that can be.
About the sky fortress: In my opinion it is only strong because it abuses the weakest link of a team. If there is 1 lower tier tank moving around alone, you can kill him easily. But against only infernals and frost robots (or similar tier tanks) staying closer together, it isn't really that strong - in fact it is way weaker than infernal in those cases. Killing Frost Robot+ in 1on1 is impossible as well, if the Frost plays at least ok. It's more about the opponents making it strong, not the tank itself being imbalanced.
@Griffin: vergeben und vergessen
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - IlPalazzo - 2010-03-31
griffin1987 Wrote:For one, sorry for the clan reference. Wasn't meant as flaming, but i also hate to say stuff like "someone said" or the like, which is why I wanted to provide at least SOME reference.
But good to know, I'll not say anything about any clan in the future, sorry 'bout that.
Also, I did not post this in the bug forum because I WANTED to hear your oppinion, as such, I like it how you critizise my reasons. I think good critizism makes for a good discussion.
The way I see it - who said what doesn't really matter when it comes to Bug/Feedback/Suggestion. Only the facts one bases their opinions/ideas should be taken into consideration and the rest is usually just biased banter and junk that is better discussed in the community forums. Though I understand the importance of references and such, because saying "someone said" feels more like rumor-spreading, constructive discussion might be better off without giving any names. Too often people become emotionally driven when they see a name or clan in a discussion.
Again, no great harm done - so don't worry too much about it, but something to keep in mind.
griffin1987 Wrote:After all this being said, which of the two would you consider:
1. Net works as I proposed, and sky fortress will not be able to escape it (remember, as being stated, teleport is not possible as well - if it's only "tied to" the ground, as "Prog" (i'll also use forum names from now on) said, I don't see a reason why teleport should be disabled when net'd)
2. Make it possible to teleport out of net - this would make the behaviour more consistent i think
3. Adapt the tooltip of net and sky fortress
4 = 2+3
About neting a pricy tank with a net for 200: If you don't kill the tank with that, it's 200 gold lost, no matter how costy that tank is. Also, if we make an exception for the sky fortress, it would render the net more useless than it already is.
Also, sky fortress is already able to escape stun by his ability - just try chaos teleport of infernal while fortress uses his skill. It's not stunned. Same for every other stun as far as I've seen so far. Plus the skill does damage as well.
Thinking about all these issues - isn't the sky fortress totally imba? 1. It can bomb the base, and also commit suicide with bombs. 2. It can get avoid stun and get away from nets 3. It has the longest "stun" in game (the shutdown systems skill) 4. it has massive hp
And that all for less cost than an infernal, and, what's far more important i think: It's an airtank which you can buy 2 upgrades early than infernal.
No, I don't want to flame around if that can be read into my sentences
On the flipside, disrupting a Sky Fortress from his ultimate usually denies him (or his team) a 200-1000 gold kill. Whether I intend to kill the Sky Fortress or not, I ALWAYS buy a set a nets when I fight one. Even if I "lose" 200 gold to counter his ultimate, I'm denying him the bounty he SHOULD get from killing my teammate, which is worth much more... More often than not though, with a 4.0-4.5 second hold/stun combo and teammate to help dish out damage, killing the Sky Fortress should be easy.
... The Turbo Boost can break out of a stun? I never really paid attention, I thought if the tank was stun it would have to wait until the stun was finished for the ability to activate. I need to pay more attention to that the next time I play.
As for the Sky Fortress's imbaness - I see it as a good 1v1 tank, maybe even the best. But the way I see it, the Frost Robot > Infernal 1v1 and the Sky Fortress > Titan 1v1. I would also say the Frost Robot < Infernal 5v5 and the Sky Fortress < Titan 5v5. The difference is that the Frost Bot and the Sky Fortress have more single target and smaller AoE abilties and thus geared to fight tanks 1v1. The Infernal and Titan can deal about the same damage to a single target as the former two tanks, but cost more in exchange for having larger spell-casting radii, and thus only reach their potential in group battles.
1. Although they can't commit suicide, the Infernal and Titan can also do devastating damage to a base in a very short amount of time. I also would argue that these tanks have better methods of avoiding feeding. The Infernal has Chaos Teleport to teleport in (letting him save his other teleport to escape), and the Titan has KoF guaranteeing him a few seconds of life.
2. It can't get away from nets, it has some mobility but it's still bound to the ground. When you consider the 5000 Titan AoE or the Goblin Hammer/Stun - this can make a lot of difference in a battle.
3. Sorry if this a bit picky with words, but I see it as a hold, not a stun... The difference doesn't really matter in a 1v1 battle, but when your enemy's teammates can break your ultimate in a battle, all the sudden your long "stun" turns into a <1.0 second "stun." This is why I always carry around a set of nets. Whether I kill the sky fortress or not, the 200 gold will cause him a lot of grief and deny him his only way of keeping his enemy in place.
4. Meh - All end-game tanks have a copious amount of HP. Personally, I rarely go for the Sky Fortress and instead opt to save for the Infernal or Titan.
I would like to see idea 2 implemented, for air tanks to be able to teleport away even if it's in a net... But I don't like number 1. If the net were able to disrupt 2/3 of the Sky Fortress's abilties, the tank would be become easily countered by cheap nets.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - griffin1987 - 2010-04-08
+1 then for air units being able to teleport away when net-ed - would make the overal behaviour more consistent.
(don't see any reason why airtanks should not be able to port away, if net does not stun but only immobilize)
Also i would like to see airtanks being able to use some of their skills then, for example:
Airship would still be able to use its red laser beams (OMG after 3 years of playing I just can't remember how they are called!), but not be able to use the plasma rain, as i think it's supposedly something which is being "dropped" by the airship. Dunno about drones, as some might argue that they would not have enough height to take off, or something along that line.
Also this leaves another question:
If an air unit would be net'd for let's say 3 seconds, and an goblin tank would stun it after 2.9 seconds, shouldn't the air tank stay on the ground till the stun is over?
Sounds really complicated to implement *devilish laughter*Cheers
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - IlPalazzo - 2010-04-08
griffin1987 Wrote:Also this leaves another question:
If an air unit would be net'd for let's say 3 seconds, and an goblin tank would stun it after 2.9 seconds, shouldn't the air tank stay on the ground till the stun is over?
That would make sense logically, but that would require a few things to be rebalanced, because it will make Bombs less effective against ground (remember, they don't work while air tanks are bound to the ground) and the Axe Launcher much more potent. Being held to ground 1-2 seconds longer means the air tank would lose some damage capabilities with the bombs while the ground tank with the axe launcher will be able to push out a couple thousand more... Being a fan of the Goblin Tank, I'd exploit this change as much as I could. :wink:
Something to consider when we have to decide whether to make some aspects of the game more realistic or more balanced - or if it's worth the time to do rebalancing to make the game more realistic.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - k-bones - 2010-04-09
While we're at the net topic - don't you think the net launcher being consumable is a totally weak thing?
Just look at this:
Air tanks are air (lol). Which means they have better speed in most cases (thanks to the ability) and they can fly over trees, avoiding your damage, escaping certain death, annoying the hell out of you by flying all over the map and your cp's, and more.
They have less hp, yes - but you can compensate that with a hull. Hull is not consumable, of course.
No tank in game, except for the Demon (and Scout's net), has a more powerful anti-air ability, something like the hammer's air counterpart. On the other hand, even the heli's AoE is more powerful than LT's. It looks like it also stuns...
Now, if you want to stop an air tank, you need either a good stun and teleporter, or a net, in which case you pay every time you TRY to kill him. (Yes, I know about AA guns and such, but they can get bombs as well, so that's not a valid argument)
How many other consumables are out there?
Detectors, with their permanent counterpart, radar being only 3x more expensive. (yes I know the functionality differs, but let's drop it)
Orbital bombardment - not consumable.
Troop packs, especially ATC or how's it called - able to end the game in few minutes or pwn a tinker with two uses - non-consumable.
Repair kits, non-consumable.
Defuse kit/pack - lets you steal all kills from an enemy and probably get some good kills for yourself. Also scares the shit out of 'em
The list is a bit longer.
Now we have the little poor net launcher, which does no damage, immobilises for 2 seconds and costs 200 for every use. Pretty sad.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - IlPalazzo - 2010-04-09
k-bones Wrote:While we're at the net topic - don't you think the net launcher being consumable is a totally weak thing?
Air tanks are air (lol). Which means they have better speed in most cases (thanks to the ability) and they can fly over trees, avoiding your damage, escaping certain death, annoying the hell out of you by flying all over the map and your cp's, and more.
They have less hp, yes - but you can compensate that with a hull. Hull is not consumable, of course.
No tank in game, except for the Demon (and Scout's net), has a more powerful anti-air ability, something like the hammer's air counterpart. On the other hand, even the heli's AoE is more powerful than LT's. It looks like it also stuns...
Now, if you want to stop an air tank, you need either a good stun and teleporter, or a net, in which case you pay every time you TRY to kill him. (Yes, I know about AA guns and such, but they can get bombs as well, so that's not a valid argument)
When you use a net you take away the three important advantages of being an air tank - it's mobility, it's ground skill immunity, and his ability to use AA Guns and Bombs. Is that a sad use of an expendable item? I don't think so. To the contrary - I would say it's one of the most useful items in the game.
Who cares if it costs 200 gold per use? In the middle game air tanks are worth ~400 gold, and towards the end-game they can reach 600-1000... If you get the kill you will get much more in profit...
Instead of using a good stun, teleporter, or a net as a way to try to kill an air tank - try using them ALL in battle at once. Having two means of holding an air tank in place is invaluable when you couple them together. As a Goblin Tank a net allows you to hold him in place for a couple seconds. Couple it with his hammer skill, and you an wrack up up another 2500 damage and a 2.5 second stun. If 4.5(?) seconds of immobility and ~4000 damage from your hammer/ultimate doesn't kill him (if you have a poison magic that should wrack up about 7600 damage), then you still have a teleport to finish him off. If you have a Titan you can net him to the ground, this allows him to be hit by your ground AoE that will damage him for 5000, couple that with your stun that also does for 5000, and you should have 10,000 Damage from skills and ~3.5 seconds to dish out more damage to (nearly) finish him off.
Re: Sky Fortress + Net - muhaha96 - 2010-04-10
but your 1v1 battles do normally not exist in a game not full of beginners.