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+--- Thread: gettin Imba (/showthread.php?tid=807)
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gettin Imba - Scythe1337 - 2010-01-13
I heard some people sayin that you get imba on hb, and the game cant be turned again. Well there is a thread that proves you are wrong(http://btanks.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2902). But well I dont play normal very often so im really not a pro on normal I like hb, and play it very often, when i come home in the evenings. Mostly i host by myselve, but today i decided to join a normal game. Here is the replay: http://www.file-upload.net/download-2157138/Btanks867dnormal.w3g.html
..maybe it was a noob team... but maybe you can just get imba in normal aswell...
@Those who are of the oppinion, that you can get imba on hb too easy:
Maybe you are just not good on hb. Or if you are the imba one, maybe you are too good or play with noobs.
Re: gettin Imba - Paladon - 2010-01-13
Imba means imbalanced, not being better than someone else.
Re: gettin Imba - newbcake3 - 2010-01-14
i dont even know how you can get "imbalanced" any differently in high bounty than you can normal games. is there any logic to this? the only difference is the speed of tank-improvement is almost doubled.
the only way you can get "imba" is if the other players are feeders or worse than you (which is the same as in normal mode), so i dont know what paladon's argument is.
Re: gettin Imba - khEg - 2010-01-14
newbcake3 Wrote:so i dont know what paladon's argument is.simple
Palas argument is that imba does not mean that you are better than others and "kick ass" .. it just means that something isnt in balance with the rest
best regards
khEg
Re: gettin Imba - newbcake3 - 2010-01-14
High Bounty was implemented as a Funmode, where simply all bounties are doubled, so that mode isn't balanced and never ment to be played as "normal mode". But currently, a massive amount of games on the BattleNet are 5khb and practically played as an 'imba' mode. This is actually a problem, because new people don't understand why others are 'imba' in games and then they don't play the map anymore -> our community will shrink. So keep BT alive!
this is the rationale for removing high bounty. this is possibly the poorest excuse ive ever seen.
noobs are going to get raped repeatedly in normal mode just as hard as they are in high bounty. this is contradictory to what Paladon says about players of different skill levels. noobs will get owned not because imba, but because theyre new... theyre not as good...
I'd still like to know what it is that is creating this mysterious imba'ness in high bounty that doesnt happen in regular games. like i said before, the only difference is the speed at which the game progresses..
Re: gettin Imba - Prog - 2010-01-14
Just to mention some of the most obvious facts:
*You can change Tank/get hulls at a much lower lvl becouse of the additional gold.
*This results in a worse possibilty to use temporal advantages against people waiting for a stronger tank/hull, becouse the length of the advantage-time window is decreased.
*Same argument can be made with porter and the opportunity window with porter against no porter being shorter and any other temporal advantage.
*This implies different early-mid game balance in strategies. For example: artillery shot of the demolisher is way more effective in normal than in hb.
*Total weapon damage in comparison to Creepstats differ from normal mode, neglecting their difference in creeping capacity in hb (and/or shifting it towards different weapons).
*This Gold-to-Creep-stats difference influences all types of playstyles depending on force upgrades, namely: factories, troop command, troop command center, mines (item and demolisher), orbital control and bomb.
*It influences the defensive capacities of towers and barricades as well, making them weaker in general.
*Force Upgrades differ, shifting late game tank balance towards tanks without requirements, especially Frost Robot.
*As the importance of force upgrades decrease, the importance of control points decreases as well.
*Control Point Teleport becomes cheaper in terms of creeps-to-kill, making a more defensive orientated (camping) playstyle more viable.
*Offensive Factories become weaker due to the lower armor upgrades.
Re: gettin Imba - newbcake3 - 2010-01-14
so you basically
just named a bunch of obvious
differences, none of which lead
to someone becoming imbalanced bc
of anything other than differing skill
levels. high bounty just requires
a different play style is the only
conclusion you can make here, and
apparently the ones making
the decisions dont like this style.
Re: gettin Imba - IlPalazzo - 2010-01-14
Prog Wrote:*This results in a worse possibilty to use temporal advantages against people waiting for a stronger tank/hull, becouse the length of the advantage-time window is decreased.
*Same argument can be made with porter and the opportunity window with porter against no porter being shorter and any other temporal advantage.
*This implies different early-mid game balance in strategies. For example: artillery shot of the demolisher is way more effective in normal than in hb.
The faster pace is the crux of why most players who play HB like this mode. This means, that although temporary windows will close more quickly, the game transitions more quickly such that new ones will open to replace them. If the DevTeam cannot agree this is good thing, or even acceptable, in a fast-paced mode, then providing suggestions for an alternative may not be possible. :|
Prog Wrote:*Total weapon damage in comparison to Creepstats differ from normal mode, neglecting their difference in creeping capacity in hb (and/or shifting it towards different weapons).
*This Gold-to-Creep-stats difference influences all types of playstyles depending on force upgrades, namely: factories, troop command, troop command center, mines (item and demolisher), orbital control and bomb.
*It influences the defensive capacities of towers and barricades as well, making them weaker in general.
*Force Upgrades differ, shifting late game tank balance towards tanks without requirements, especially Frost Robot.
*As the importance of force upgrades decrease, the importance of control points decreases as well.
*Control Point Teleport becomes cheaper in terms of creeps-to-kill, making a more defensive orientated (camping) playstyle more viable.
*Offensive Factories become weaker due to the lower armor upgrades.
This pretty much umbrellas under one problem: creeps in HB are terribly weak compared to their tank/weapon counterparts. If creeps upgraded at shorter intervals (and possibly the maximum creep upgrades increased), then it would likely undo most of the unbalance found in this mode affecting creeps and upgrade-dependent weapons.
Re: gettin Imba - 5kHB - 2010-01-15
newbcake3 Wrote:But currently, a massive amount of games on the BattleNet are 5khb and practically played as an 'imba' mode.
This could mean that it's more liked than normal mode but I think you guys are just too ignorant to realize this. It doesn't hurt to implement HB in BTanks. I'm a software developer and I saw a lot of software in my life where the developers thought they would know what the user needs and not listened to them. At least some other guy folked the software and the original one died a slow but constant death.
Re: gettin Imba - Scythe1337 - 2010-01-15
Paladon Wrote:Imba means imbalanced, not being better than someone else.Well, but getting imba means, to become overwelming so fast, that the others cant do anything, and this occures on normal as well as on hb, so if you would have watched the replay, you could see that the game got imbalanced after a few minutes (which caused a leaver wave(i thought this problem was only on hb^^))
Re: gettin Imba - Prog - 2010-01-15
IlPalazzo Wrote:The faster pace is the crux of why most players who play HB like this mode. This means, that although temporary windows will close more quickly, the game transitions more quickly such that new ones will open to replace them. If the DevTeam cannot agree this is good thing, or even acceptable, in a fast-paced mode, then providing suggestions for an alternative may not be possible. :|
The Problem is not the "faster pace" in general, it's rather "which pace is possible without making it too easy to ignore certain gameplay stages (like how easy it is with which pace to play start tank->demon for example)?".
Quote:This pretty much umbrellas under one problem: creeps in HB are terribly weak compared to their tank/weapon counterparts. If creeps upgraded at shorter intervals (and possibly the maximum creep upgrades increased), then it would likely undo most of the unbalance found in this mode affecting creeps and upgrade-dependent weapons.
You forgot the xp which needs to be adjusted, but otherwise yes - I allready emphasized this in the internal discussion about possible hb alternatives.
Re: gettin Imba - khEg - 2010-01-15
Have a look
best regards
Coke
Re: gettin Imba - IlPalazzo - 2010-01-15
Prog Wrote:The Problem is not the "faster pace" in general, it's rather "which pace is possible without making it too easy to ignore certain gameplay stages (like how easy it is with which pace to play start tank->demon for example)?".
It's still possible for this to happen in normal pub games, it's just a little bit more difficult. I think the main problem is the tank bounty, which is set a bit too high. Since it's easier to push a start ==> Demon if you get 15 kills worth ~6,000 gold than it is to get 15 kills worth ~3,000, it's difficult for enemy players to keep up when such a gold gap is created. This allows you to "skip" steps while they're trying to play catch-up and buy their mid-game/tier 2 tanks. On the main HB board there were some suggestions (sharing tank bounty/lowering it a little), has the DevTeam discussions evaluated how well this would work?
Prog Wrote:You forgot the xp which needs to be adjusted, but otherwise yes - I allready emphasized this in the internal discussion about possible hb alternatives.
Right, do you know if it's possible to code in fraction points of experience or to change the value of creep experience as a function of time through JASS? This could be one possible solution if the coding is reasonable. Another possibility would be to change the rate at which creep bounty increases (50%-75% per hour instead of 100%?).
khEg Wrote:Have a look
best regards
Coke
I think the main problem was that you kept your Air Ship for too long... It would have been better if you held off buying that last psycho and went for a bigger tank, as it would have been a more cost-effective move for you HP/Ability-wise.
Re: gettin Imba - khEg - 2010-01-15
IlPalazzo Wrote:khEg Wrote:Have a look
best regards
Coke
I think the main problem was that you kept your Air Ship for too long... It would have been better if you held off buying that last psycho and went for a bigger tank, as it would have been a more cost-effective move for you HP/Ability-wise.
You are partially right. Let me give you some background.
I started with trader (which you can see when you look at my total amount of lumber). After me Klopfer choosed trader as well so we basicly had a bad start situation. We had another mate "Andibert" in team and it went fine until he dropped.
When he dropped i decided to get a tank and fight as teal and blue werent that good. I took air ship with fireball and troops (which i already had being trader), bought another fireball from junk and after a fire arrow. In the course of the game we lost both lanes as i wasnt able to defend both at same time or was just not in tp range whatever. Then blue swaped to exploder and teamkilled me while defending middle so we lost that one too. After that blue left and klopfer lagged out and the rest you can see in my video ^^
I have the whole game recorded if any1 is interested just PM me
best regards ^^
khEg
P.S.
IlPalazzo Wrote:On the main HB board there were some suggestions (sharing tank bounty/lowering it a little), has the DevTeam discussions evaluated how well this would work?sounds interesting! gold sharing could be a nice mode
Re: gettin Imba - IlPalazzo - 2010-01-15
khEg Wrote:You are partially right. Let me give you some background.
I started with trader (which you can see when you look at my total amount of lumber). After me Klopfer choosed trader as well so we basicly had a bad start situation. We had another mate "Andibert" in team and it went fine until he dropped.
When he dropped i decided to get a tank and fight as teal and blue werent that good. I took air ship with fireball and troops (which i already had being trader), bought another fireball from junk and after a fire arrow. In the course of the game we lost both lanes as i wasnt able to defend both at same time or was just not in tp range whatever. Then blue swaped to exploder and teamkilled me while defending middle so we lost that one too. After that blue left and klopfer lagged out and the rest you can see in my video ^^
I have the whole game recorded if any1 is interested just PM me
Haha, these things tend to happen in pub-games, in normal and HB. A position where one (or a couple) players are able to beat their opponent by shear brute force and equipment is possible in both modes if the opposing team puts up a bad performance overall.
But damn - double trader? That couldn't have been good for income, especially if your team can't farm their lanes well.
Re: gettin Imba - khEg - 2010-01-15
IlPalazzo Wrote:khEg Wrote:You are partially right. Let me give you some background.
I started with trader (which you can see when you look at my total amount of lumber). After me Klopfer choosed trader as well so we basicly had a bad start situation. We had another mate "Andibert" in team and it went fine until he dropped.
When he dropped i decided to get a tank and fight as teal and blue werent that good. I took air ship with fireball and troops (which i already had being trader), bought another fireball from junk and after a fire arrow. In the course of the game we lost both lanes as i wasnt able to defend both at same time or was just not in tp range whatever. Then blue swaped to exploder and teamkilled me while defending middle so we lost that one too. After that blue left and klopfer lagged out and the rest you can see in my video ^^
I have the whole game recorded if any1 is interested just PM me
Haha, these things tend to happen in pub-games, in normal and HB. A position where one (or a couple) players are able to beat their opponent by shear brute force and equipment is possible in both modes if the opposing team puts up a bad performance overall.
But damn - double trader? That couldn't have been good for income, especially if your team can't farm their lanes well.
Yeah sure, I just brought this up to make sure every1 gets it .. HB isnt different from normal when you look on the necessarity of teamplay and the needed absence of feeders ^^ Its just double gold and you can buy faster .. thats all
Therefor of course its not faster with even teams as the enemy can buy faster too .. its just faster when teams are uneven.
best regards
khEg
Re: gettin Imba - IlPalazzo - 2010-01-16
khEg Wrote:Yeah sure, I just brought this up to make sure every1 gets it .. HB isnt different from normal when you look on the necessarity of teamplay and the needed absence of feeders ^^ Its just double gold and you can buy faster .. thats all
Therefor of course its not faster with even teams as the enemy can buy faster too .. its just faster when teams are uneven.
best regards
khEg
Well there is a difference/imbalance due to the tank bounty.
As you increase the bounty more and more, this problem becomes more apparent, so imagine a game with Uber High Bounty, we'll say x5 normal... The the starting bounty for tanks would be about 1,000 instead of 200. In a pub game where a player goes 10-0, he would be in a position where he has 10,000 gold over his opponent on hand instead of 2,000 that he would normal. The difference in this case is between having a Demon Tank over your opponent or having an extra Bombarding Rocket in your inventory. At it's ugliest, you'll see a pub game where a a Frost Bot is laying waste to Scouts and Light Tanks within 5-10 minutes of the game.
This is the issue Prog is getting at when he mentions that Start ==> Demon jump, and why I have to agree that HB isn't quite the same as normal or as balanced in that respect.
Re: gettin Imba - khEg - 2010-01-16
IlPalazzo Wrote:khEg Wrote:Yeah sure, I just brought this up to make sure every1 gets it .. HB isnt different from normal when you look on the necessarity of teamplay and the needed absence of feeders ^^ Its just double gold and you can buy faster .. thats all
Therefor of course its not faster with even teams as the enemy can buy faster too .. its just faster when teams are uneven.
best regards
khEg
Well there is a difference/imbalance due to the tank bounty.
As you increase the bounty more and more, this problem becomes more apparent, so imagine a game with Uber High Bounty, we'll say x5 normal... The the starting bounty for tanks would be about 1,000 instead of 200. In a pub game where a player goes 10-0, he would be in a position where he has 10,000 gold over his opponent on hand instead of 2,000 that he would normal. The difference in this case is between having a Demon Tank over your opponent or having an extra Bombarding Rocket in your inventory. At it's ugliest, you'll see a pub game where a a Frost Bot is laying waste to Scouts and Light Tanks within 5-10 minutes of the game.
This is the issue Prog is getting at when he mentions that Start ==> Demon jump, and why I have to agree that HB isn't quite the same as normal or as balanced in that respect.
Well thats what I ment when saying:
khEg Wrote:.. its just faster when teams are uneven.
I am no HB-Friend either so .. actually I dont care! Even if HB would come back I wouldn't play it. :lol:
best regards
khEg
Re: gettin Imba - scron2 - 2010-01-16
Prog Wrote:Just to mention some of the most obvious facts:
*You can change Tank/get hulls at a much lower lvl becouse of the additional gold.
*This results in a worse possibilty to use temporal advantages against people waiting for a stronger tank/hull, becouse the length of the advantage-time window is decreased.
*Same argument can be made with porter and the opportunity window with porter against no porter being shorter and any other temporal advantage.
*This implies different early-mid game balance in strategies. For example: artillery shot of the demolisher is way more effective in normal than in hb.
*Total weapon damage in comparison to Creepstats differ from normal mode, neglecting their difference in creeping capacity in hb (and/or shifting it towards different weapons).
*This Gold-to-Creep-stats difference influences all types of playstyles depending on force upgrades, namely: factories, troop command, troop command center, mines (item and demolisher), orbital control and bomb.
*It influences the defensive capacities of towers and barricades as well, making them weaker in general.
*Force Upgrades differ, shifting late game tank balance towards tanks without requirements, especially Frost Robot.
*As the importance of force upgrades decrease, the importance of control points decreases as well.
*Control Point Teleport becomes cheaper in terms of creeps-to-kill, making a more defensive orientated (camping) playstyle more viable.
*Offensive Factories become weaker due to the lower armor upgrades.
*Changing tanks depends on your strategy, many players can have the luxury of keeping cheaper tanks by going gold hull faster. Changing tanks happens, it doesn't mean you'll be at a level suitable to fully take advantage of them.
*The "advantage-window" of rushing a tank is decreased. That balance remark confirms that the normal mode is easier to gain an advantage on your opponent. How is nerfing this a bad thing, it creates more balance.
*Demolisher Artillery shot is more effective in HB than normal mode -- false statement. Mines are always better. This comment is more dependent on players going air then the game mode itself. Basically strategy-wise it's trivially NOT the game mode we are talking about if we are talking about this ability.
*People rushing teleporter, advantage window is decreased. Afraid some noob might copy you and get one too -soon? Abusing an item by using normal mode as a barrier to prevent the opposing person from regaining an edge.... how pathetic is that? If you are good in HB that won't matter. Either way there is an advantage window because bounties are higher -- that's an advantage. You have no clear conclusion here. It's just another arbitrary comment trying to sound important and written in stone, it is not.
*Creepstats are changed so it shifts what weapons are used -- how is this a problem? If you are good then you get weapons that get the job done. Another statement that says basically, with more gold they can afford better weapons. So what? Does this change your skill level? No. What is broken? I can't see anything wrong here.
*It makes towers/barracades weaker -- well they are also "cheaper" to buy and people still buy them so what is your point?
*Force upgrades differ - shifts game to 'frost' and tanks without requirements. Well, if you wait long enough you can get a better tank. You could upgrade but have you proven that upgrading is not a good idea in HB? I see no proof here. The Hunter tank is a good example of a tank that will nearly always be bought. What is the significance of even mentioning upgrades other than there is more gold, so they are cheaper. Are you trying to say the edge is lost once again from something that you could have a 'window of opportunity' on? This is coming back to the normal mode debate once again. If anything normal mode shifts the balance in that direction even more because at least in HB you can afford to reasonably upgrade.
*Control point TP is cheaper - this is a trivial issue. People camp in both modes. This shouldn't even be listed here because it's just another statement made to sound important when really it is saying NOTHING AT ALL.
*Offensive factories become weaker - yes it's true. A factory won't help you much in HB unless you have significantly upgraded armor. It's more of an "icing on the cake" kind of item isn't it? You don't start a game doing that kind of passive-unengaged-play and how it is used in each mode differs. Just because it is different doesn't mean there is something inherently wrong. People still can buy a powerplant and use it for regeneration near an enemy base which is mostly the usage it is used for anyway. Knowing how to use an item has to do with your own skill level. If the mode changes and you refuse to, then prepare to not get the same results. In this case your poor decision is the problem and not the game mode.
Re: gettin Imba - karate_kid_x - 2010-01-19
Paladon Wrote:Imba means imbalanced, not being better than someone else.
HB is NOT imba in the first place by that defenition