i love 8.57 besides ..

[BENNIE.FM]

death magic and.. no exploder mode but besides that perfect so close to getting a perfect version in my view

[qweqqweq]

ya, i have to say i love this map for sure. even if it does annoy the shit out of me sometimes it's still a joy to play it and you can do some pretty cool stuff in it.

[Dr.McNinja]

Agreed... But i do believe enemies getting death magic or massing it would give you an advantage overall... They ARE pretty expensive and ive only seen noobs mass them. Single's dont really hurt.

I guess the noobs would have fun.. and you would have fun pwning noobs, they'd say the same thing (omg remove bennie mode)

[Althend]

The hero only weapon is currently too powerfull... REducing 15% of damage may balance it.

[IlPalazzo]

5%-10% would probably be enough. 15% and no one will use them - like before.

[jonjon]

Mathematically, the weapons are justified. Strategy wise, extra long range (1300) ignores the DPS logic because you're more interested in removing chunks of HP at a time.

Death magic is fine for its price structure. You lose out on creeps. Fair enough sacrifice.

What concerns me is the energy torpedo and acid cannon match up. Assuming DPS plays no factor.

Energy Torps
Price: 2800
Damage: 478
Cooldown: 3.33
DPS: 144

Acid Cannon
Price: 12000
Damage: 923
Cooldown: 1.5
DPS: 615

Again, the price structure is justified through DPS but remember death magic all of a sudden became more effective when cooldown was increased but so was the damage.

But back the torp versus acid cannon.

Comparing damage
Buy 2 energy torps and you got yourself an imitation acid cannon that is cheaper, does more damage in one chunk and possibly just as effective against creeps because of early game armor level and the ability to buffer your weapons.

Comparing cost
Let's say we buy 4 energy torpedoes (11.2k) which is relatively the same price structure as one acid cannon. In one chunk, energy torpedoes do 478x4 which is 1912 per hit as opposed to acid cannon which costs 12k and does 923 per hit. Access to energy torpedoes early game is easy compared to acid cannon.

Comparing time
If you're good you can get 4 upgraded energy torpedoes and a hull in the first 20 minutes of the game. 1 energy torpedo is already enough to make a scout, light tank, helicopter, sometimes anti-grav and sometimes demo retreat back to cp and lose out on creeps and experience and forcing the opponent to tank up or hull up immediately.

At 20 minutes you've probably forced your opponent to a steel hull, multiple irons, thunder, air, heavy or goblin. Sky or demon is quite rare. 4 energy torpedoes, can still hurt and force a retreat with their tank and 1 weapon. Also by this time you've probably saved enough for a tank in the 4k range, satisfying the attack/defense balance much sooner. Saving for acid cannon at 20-25 minutes just leaves you open for feed and is a bad strategy.

During the 1 hour mark. If you've bought an acid cannon or two. Force armor level makes acid cannon do nothing. The opponents tanks are expected to be at least a demon or a frost. Similarly, energy torpedoes will do no favours either.

End game, both of those weapons suck. But energy torpedoes have a much better chance to make a difference throughout the game.

[qweqqweq]

jonjon do you smoke a lot of pot?

[jonjon]

sure do! want some?

lol I know it sounds farfetched but i guess you've never seen a game where 4 torpedoes is obviously more effective than one acid cannon.

[ChronicStoned]

i don't think you're right.
it depends a lot of how the player uses the weapons and how the enemy acts.

-4x energy torpedo= 4 slots 1x acid cannon = 1 slot
-energy torpedo starts firing after 3.33 seconds acid starts after 1.5(1.2 upgraded), so if an enemy ports next to you he might kill you without even getting hit from the torpedos, while the acid cannon would shot atleast one time
-you will start with one single torpedo and most enemys won't attack you without the creepwave
( 2x marines(+2 cpmarines)+1zeppelin+1artillerie+1commander=5(7) possible targets) around them, so the chance of hitting the player is quit bad which means he won't run away after you (maybe) hit him(even the light tank has to be hit 2-3 times(depends on upgraded or not) with the torpedo before he dies).

as you can see 4x energy torpedo sucks

[qweqqweq]

you can't fit 4 torps into 1 item slot like you can an acid cannon so an acid cannon is infinately times better. you can fit four acid cannons in the same amount of item slots that you can put 4 torps so this whole argument is just silly.

it's like saying that basic magics are overpowered compared to swarm rockets since you can get a faster rate of fire from 3 of them then from 1 swarm rocket of the same price.

of course if you get 4 torpedos they are going to aquire targets better than 1 acid cannon but i still don't dislike acid cannon. if there was a higher damage long range weapon with a faster fire rate then that would be better but there isn't. is it really that big of a deal?

[jonjon]

i don't think you're right.
it depends a lot of how the player uses the weapons and how the enemy acts.

-4x energy torpedo= 4 slots 1x acid cannon = 1 slot
That has nothing to with the effectiveness of the weapon.

-energy torpedo starts firing after 3.33 seconds acid starts after 1.5(1.2 upgraded), so if an enemy ports next to you he might kill you without even getting hit from the torpedos, while the acid cannon would shot atleast one time
I have stated before that death magic only became more powerful when they upped the cooldown, but increased the damage in order to soften targets. Acid cannon is quite useless because you receive signs to retreat earlier.

-you will start with one single torpedo and most enemys won't attack you without the creepwave
( 2x marines(+2 cpmarines)+1zeppelin+1artillerie+1commander=5(7) possible targets) around them, so the chance of hitting the player is quit bad which means he won't run away after you (maybe) hit him(even the light tank has to be hit 2-3 times(depends on upgraded or not) with the torpedo before he dies).
I don't know what you just said.

as you can see 4x energy torpedo sucks
Compared to an one acid cannon? Wrong. I told one guy to sell all his torps after 50+ kills with it. He bought one acid cannon. He could barely kill anyone after that.

you can't fit 4 torps into 1 item slot like you can an acid cannon so an acid cannon is infinately times better. you can fit four acid cannons in the same amount of item slots that you can put 4 torps so this whole argument is just silly.
First, that was just primitive thinking right there. Second, I was comparing the effectiveness of 4 torps to 1 acid cannon as a killing weapon. Third, At what stage of the game are you going to find 4 acid cannons? And tell me how useful you think 4 acid cannons are going to be during that stage of the game compared to 4 torps during the early stage of the game when its accessible?

it's like saying that basic magics are overpowered compared to swarm rockets since you can get a faster rate of fire from 3 of them then from 1 swarm rocket of the same price.
I'm not comparing DPS here. Do people know how to read?

of course if you get 4 torpedos they are going to aquire targets better than 1 acid cannon but i still don't dislike acid cannon.

if there was a higher damage long range weapon with a faster fire rate then that would be better but there isn't. is it really that big of a deal?
Did you read my post? I thought I just covered that argument with death magic. When did death magic all of a sudden became as you guys term it a "noob cannon"?

Think of it this way. What I'd like to see is acid cannon having double the cooldown and double the damage like it did for death magic. Now imagine stacking 5 of them to a tank. 1846x5 = 9230 per strike. During the end game that is enough to make anyone run in fear. Far more effective that having a weapon that warns others to run before you make any useful damage.

[qweqqweq]

i'm sorry, i wuold need probably need to smoke a couple bowls before i could talk to you on your level. good luck on getting your low cd long range weapon.

[BENNIE.FM]

-_- OMW

[Vomitus]

I think jonjon is absolutely right...
/* taking enormous swallow hit */

[benben10]

i agree with jonjon aswell. having long cooldowns can effectively increase the dps. if you can 2 shot someone with an energy torpedo than you have effectivly doubled the dps. on another point, 4 acid cannons is unreasonable. at that point in the game you should have either completely dominated your enemy and be focusing on finishing their base off OR everyone will have TP's which makes playing range very hard.

had some other thoughts but lost them.