Geography

[UnifiedDoom]

As one of the few people (who I know at least) that actively try to kill laners on the opposing team when they are overfarming by ganking them from the middle lane early in the game. I've noticed that the map's geography is actually very off center to say the least. As a member of the bottom team (Dark Force) I cannot approach the top lane from mid lane without being at a very unfavorable angle from a ganking perspective (almost passing over my allied cp). Conversely if the enemy laner on the bottom laner is overfarming I can approach him from mid and even hit him from behind cutting off his escape route which is very favorable. Now the problem with this is the top team's (Light Force) top laner is essentially immune to ganks from mid simply because of the layout of the map. If I were to approach him from middle it would be at essentially the same angle as if I were just walking from my own cp meaning he could easily see me coming without even looking at the minimap and run away. This is also true in reverse as when I'm on the top team (Light Force) myself the enemy player on the bottom lane(Dark Force) is immune to being ganked from mid while the enemy's top lane is exceedingly vunerable. Now I don't know if this was intended, but I find it rather imbalanced that one side lane cannot be ganked period.

My Solution to this problem would be this
- Fog of War (LOLOLOLOLOLOL that will never happen no matter how much I wish it would)
- Center the map so both lanes are gankable but neither is excessively vunerable (Too much work for a not so big problem)

As you can see it would be a very hard problem to fix which is why I put it in the feedback subforum rather than suggestions subforum.

[Prog]

I do not see how it is imbalanced if both teams have 1 "safe" lane and 1 "unsafe" one. I even think it is way better this way, because that there is a gameplay difference between both side lanes. It makes the game a bit more dynamic to have those slight advantages on each side lane.

[UnifiedDoom]

Yes but I still think there should be some aspect of vunerability for the pusher if hes pushing the enemy all the way to his cp, especially if he is using a techmech to do so. Of course if my ally is being pushed back it would be logical to gank the side lane otherwise hes outfarmed right? Right now it's impossible to gank one of the side lanes though so the only option is to let him get outfarmed or waste money on cp tp only for the enemy to run away.

Now that I think about it another potentional solution would be to simply make ALL allied (not just mech) cp teleports invisible to the enemy players, though I don't know what kind of consequences that would have during the mid/endgame.

[RaptorXI]

You can't stop creating, can you?
Fog of War is no solution for anyone except rangers & smokers.

[UnifiedDoom]

You can't stop creating, can you?
Fog of War is no solution for anyone except rangers & smokers.

The thread is about laners being ungankable on certain sides due to the geography of the map. Fog of War was simply a solution I offered to potentionally fix the problem. If you don't have anything to say about the topic, which right now you have completely ignored, then don't post in the thread.

[RaptorXI]

You can't stop creating, can you?
Fog of War is no solution for anyone except rangers & smokers.

The thread is about laners being ungankable on certain sides due to the geography of the map. Fog of War was simply a solution I offered to potentionally fix the problem. If you don't have anything to say about the topic, which right now you have completely ignored, then don't post in the thread.

You are an alien, I like that.
Why fix the problem?

[UnifiedDoom]

You are an alien, I like that.
Why fix the problem?

I don't understand half the stuff you say, I am an "alien" wtf? For the record I'll awnser your question even though you never awnser any of mine. Even though the awnser is in my original post I'll say it again. I want the problem to be fixed because right now one of the side lanes is ungankable due to the layout of the map. This means that if my enemy is on that "safe" lane and overfarming against my ally I cannot do ANYTHING to prevent this as a middle laner without dual-laning. Considering my ELO is based if my TEAM wins or loses and having an enemy overfarmed on the side lane would certainly hinder the chances of my team winning I would essentially be losing points without any way to stop myself from losing points.

[RaptorXI]

You are an alien, I like that.
Why fix the problem?

I don't understand half the stuff you say, I am an "alien" wtf? For the record I'll awnser your question even though you never awnser any of mine. Even though the awnser is in my original post I'll say it again. I want the problem to be fixed because right now one of the side lanes is ungankable due to the layout of the map. This means that if my enemy is on that "safe" lane and overfarming against my ally I cannot do ANYTHING to prevent this as a middle laner without dual-laning. Considering my ELO is based if my TEAM wins or loses and having an enemy overfarmed on the side lane would certainly hinder the chances of my team winning I would essentially be losing points without any way to stop myself from losing points.

Stay in tension, safer sex sucks.
No lane is safe, and there is no need to gank your laner.
Just destroy the tower and then try to attack the c-point.
Any more questions that you wish to be answered?

[UnifiedDoom]

Stay in tension, safer sex sucks.

Cut the crap out of your posts seriously

No lane is safe, and there is no need to gank your laner.
Just destroy the tower and then try to attack the c-point.
Any more questions that you wish to be answered?

Backdoor the tower only to be killed by the rest of his team undoubtably teleporting for the free kill by the cp? Generally speaking I wouldn't gank anyone enless my ally is being pushed on the lane which means the enemy tower is virtually untouched otherwise. I guess I didn't make it clear this example is refering to the first 20 minutes of the game, but come on nobody can solo a tower at that point.

Any more questions that you wish to be answered?

Yes, the ones I wrote in the architect and tech mech threads. Along with this one, Why is no lane safe? I said that the top lane is immune to ganks from middle on the bottom team (Dark Force) and the bottom lane is immune from ganks from middle as long as you are on the top team (Light Force) due to the geography of the map and angle at which you approach the lane if you walk(fly) there from the middle making them "Safe" as Prog suggested.

[RaptorXI]

Is it important to know all the answers? And btw, why does raptorxi have to be the answer-machine while U. DoooM has all the rights to deny everything and only may take what (s)he likes?
Your team don't want to help? Then you must be very pro already because only high elo players get noobs all the time (and your player id confirms it, assuming your friendly agreement i looked up your profile & stats already).

[UnifiedDoom]

You should notice that I don't just say things, but rather back them up with logic, observations, and evidence. The only reason I ask so many questions is because I see a clear lack of these three things in your posts. That is the only reason I am allowed to deny "everything I like" in your words. This has nothing to do with my skill level and ELO it's simply an observation I made about the layout of the map and it's effect on gameplay. I would politely request that you stay on topic since this thread has nothing to do with ME as a player but rather the geography of the map.

[RaptorXI]

In this case, just keep going. Sadly no mapper seems to be interested.

[UnifiedDoom]

I did not know that YOU represented the collective mindset of all the mappers as a whole. Please enlighten me as to how you gained such a position

[Exodus]

As a matter of fact, he won't enlighten anyone here anymore.

Also, as for myself, I just want to observe where this discussion is going. But I also thought, that this is less a problem of the map layout, but more one of the offered choices. Maybe some kind of mechanism to cross cliffs or similiar.
As you have said yourself, changing the terrain in an attempt to change this, would be quite some work. And I guess you also know, that there is the possibility to enable fog of war, but just want to activate it per default, right?

[UnifiedDoom]

Also, as for myself, I just want to observe where this discussion is going. But I also thought, that this is less a problem of the map layout, but more one of the offered choices. Maybe some kind of mechanism to cross cliffs or similiar.
As you have said yourself, changing the terrain in an attempt to change this, would be quite some work. And I guess you also know, that there is the possibility to enable fog of war, but just want to activate it per default, right?

Fog of war would cause many consequences I doubt anyone could forsee, and I know many players already have a vendetta against Fog of War. While I feel it could add some interesting aspects to gameplay (perhaps even items and tanks based entirely on fog of war, I discussed this somewhat in the hardcore mode thread) and would like to add to default, but not immediately and after a lot of beta-testing and balancing.

You are right in assuming it is the offered choices, since earlygame ganking for me anyway is almost out of the question without a flying tank. But my main point is that you can always get behind the laner from mid in the unsafe lane but it's physically impossible to get behind them in the safe lane from mid without passing them from the front first and most likely being seen. The Fog of War would allow a player to make that frontal pass unseen and attack them from the side or even behind. The Fog of War might even cause countergankers from the enemy team to intercept a ganker from mid another interesting aspect of gameplay.

My other solution (which I now believe to be the best) was simply to make all cp tps invisible to the enemy team so that a gank via tp would not be so easy to spot without the minimap.

[Exodus]

My other solution (which I now believe to be the best) was simply to make all cp tps invisible to the enemy team so that a gank via tp would not be so easy to spot without the minimap.

I highly doubt that this is going to fix this issue. First you have to consider, that the visible CP glow only has been added in v8.68. Do you feel, that ganking has become more difficult since then? This has been been added primarily to support more CP conquering. This works because the attacker now can see when defenders are incoming, which reduces the risk of attempting to conquer a CP.

I'd also argue, that just the simple act of teleporting to the CP to defend it, is not what's commonly called a gank. A gank normally has the element of suprise, but the CP glow won't change that. To see the glow, you have to see the CP, but when you see the CP, you'll also see the player that's teleporting there. It would only make a slight difference when just glancing in the direction of the CP, when a CP TP is currently in progress.
To wrap this up: I don't think this is going to solve the problem you were describing in your first post. I also don't want to lose the safer CP conquering, since I consider this a better direction for the overall game experience.

[UnifiedDoom]

I highly doubt that this is going to fix this issue. First you have to consider, that the visible CP glow only has been added in v8.68. Do you feel, that ganking has become more difficult since then? This has been been added primarily to support more CP conquering. This works because the attacker now can see when defenders are incoming, which reduces the risk of attempting to conquer a CP.

In all honesty I didn't gank much before v8.68 so I can't give honest feedback on if it is harder or easier. Ganking is something I've started to become aware of and do fairly recently in order to prevent the things I stated above namely, the enemy laner overfarming against my ally. (Due to the way I start the game, "Anyone want Top/Bot?" and go to those two lanes if nobody else decides to go I actually find that I go to the side lanes myself more often than not)

Most of the time when I or my team attempts to capture a cp we would take a look at the minimap and death timers to ascertain the whereabouts of the enemy players. If the enemy players were indeed close to their cps it was just assumed that they would teleport and the CP Glow was just a side effect of them doing so. The Cp Glow helps me more (at least when I'm playing) if I am playing on a lane and looking out for potentional ganks or deciding if I should harass (trigger the alarm and run away) the enemy cp rather than capture it.

I'd also argue, that just the simple act of teleporting to the CP to defend it, is not what's commonly called a gank. A gank normally has the element of suprise, but the CP glow won't change that. To see the glow, you have to see the CP, but when you see the CP, you'll also see the player that's teleporting there. It would only make a slight difference when just glancing in the direction of the CP, when a CP TP is currently in progress.
To wrap this up: I don't think this is going to solve the problem you were describing in your first post. I also don't want to lose the safer CP conquering, since I consider this a better direction for the overall game experience.

You see what I've noticed players do when they're being seiged is sometimes they will cp teleport from their own spawnpoint to the area right in front of a seiging enemy rather than just walking there in order to catch them off gaurd and kill them. This teleport is entirely invisible and has caught me off gaurd many times. The elimination of the cp glow would be designed so that a potentional ganker can catch a farmer off gaurd in a similar manner and proceed to "gank" him with the camping ally already stuck in the cp. This is not a teleport to defend the cp but rather a teleport to kill an enemy standing outside the cp and farming creep waves while the tower is still alive.

[Prog]

In general the glow is intended to encourage offensive play and decrease the benefits of camping close to cps. This refers to (but is not excluded to) both capturing and the type of harass you mentioned. Very defensive play with cptp ganks was just too strong in private games and created very boring situations/games.

[UnifiedDoom]

This game (its pretty short only around 40 minutes) I think thoroughly demonstrates the overfarming I've been talking about (and the mech overpoweredness mentioned in the other thread). I myself played on the side lane with scout and mech and red was virtually unable to touch me. He did make a crucial mistake and went for a weapon instead of a hull. If I was on the other team I would have tried to gank orange(me) to prevent his farm and help reds, but since orange was on the "Safe" lane it would have been virtually impossible without cp tp. If I did use cp tp then orange would have seen me coming and simply fled or moved back and me and red would have both lost farm. So orange farmed virtually all the creeps from the top lane and became very strong and save dual-laning there was nothing to stop that from happening.

[Prog]

You should reevaluate the situation once we got rid of the tech mech imbalance. Without tech mech you'd have to retreat a couple of times making creeping a bit more difficult.

In general I think one should get rewarded when playing better than the direct opponent. One should be allowed to attack a tower or cp, but without the glow it is nearly impossible against a good team. That created situations in the past in which no cp was attacked before getting a teleporter, making the early and midgame very boring.