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2012-09-07, 01:46:20
(This post was last modified: 2012-09-07, 01:56:01 by UnifiedDoom.)
So currently the 2000 gold +75hp/sec repair robots are almost universally regarded as a waste of money. Being a nessecary part of ultimate pack and mass conventer many players cringe at the point of having to spend 4000 gold on a nearly useless item simply to complete a blueprint.
So here's my suggestion, what if the the repair robots costed less but had the same effect? I believe by reducing their cost to somewhere beetween 1000-1500 we could actually solve several problems. It's easy to tell that these repair robots are strongest in the earlygame and fade in power as weapons deal more and more damage. However currently 2000 gold in the earlygame is quite a lot, and in terms of survivability alone for 500 more gold steel, hull seems far superior. In terms of flat dps alone even iron get's the job done better.
I think if repair bots costed around half their current price, they could be a good item response for enemy bombarding rockets on the lane. Currently players fighting against bombarding rockets will take hits, even while in creeps, and eventually the midrange player will take too many hits to the point where it is too dangerous to continue fighting and is therefore forced to take many trips back to his own cp wasting valuable time. If repair robots could be used however the laner could nullify these "random lucky shots" and still play with the ability to push (currently the longrange wins the lane push by default enless he feeds really hard). Conversely the repair robots would be less effective against fighting midrange weapons which deal more damage and the fights often occuring with both players near full hp.
There is a problem with this I understand, and that's the ability for team's to put many of these into the protective towers in lategame defense. Especially with the upcoming titan change we may find ourselves with "indestructable laser towers." I mean having it at half price only serves to lengthen those games (which I'm sure nobody likes), but we have to remember that tinker can basically get one of the 2k repair bots in those towers for free anyway.
At the end of the day I think the benefits of a change like this would far outweigh the cost. Sure it's easier to put 6 of them in a protective tower, but it's still possible to put a maximum of 6 of them in the tower anyway. The alternative is to make them cheaper AND lower the amount repaired, maybe 1000 gold for 60hp/sec. Thus weakening the endgame towers but keeping the earlygame power intact.
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Would like to see them as a serious alternate to healing kit or even a hull, too. But, for the reason you alerady mentioned, cheaper (I prefer spending a Mass Converter to Protective Towers).
Also they should be able to work in Tech-Mech.
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and how about making more ups of robots? let's 300hp/s on item lvl 4.
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repair robots are ok... not good but not bad. this item is a midgame item! if you can buy this item in early game it would be overpowered because every early game weapon does only 100 dmg/sec = 1 second too repair = never die
example for more uppgrades:
Reprobots: 2000 Gold -> 75 hp/sec
First Uppgrade: 2000 Gold -> +75hp/sec
Second Uppgrade: 1800 Gold -> +75hp/sec
but pls dont decrease the cost of this item... if everyone got this item everyone can go 10 seconds back and have full hp (and you can additional dropp you hull for faster heal).
Perfektionist
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(2012-09-07, 18:27:03)Perfektionist Wrote: but pls dont decrease the cost of this item... if everyone got this item everyone can go 10 seconds back and have full hp (and you can additional dropp you hull for faster heal).
So how does an item that (almost) nobody uses and everybody considers bad, become an overpowered item with a mere 1000 difference in initial cost? Sure they may seem strong at first, but the point of the repair robots is they get weaker over time as more weapons are deployed and max hp increases.
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I think repair robots are pretty good and very underused.
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(2012-09-08, 01:47:45)Prog Wrote: I think repair robots are pretty good and very underused.
Perhaps, but I think if their cost was reduced they could have a purpose as a laner's counter to bombarding rockets and give them a fair shot at actually pushing the lane (instead of just being forced to camp as they usually are), currently the price of repair robots is too high for this purpose, you agree with this correct?
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what if we increase the hp/sec each armor upgrade?
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(2012-09-08, 02:33:58)UnifiedDoom Wrote: (2012-09-08, 01:47:45)Prog Wrote: I think repair robots are pretty good and very underused.
Perhaps, but I think if their cost was reduced they could have a purpose as a laner's counter to bombarding rockets and give them a fair shot at actually pushing the lane (instead of just being forced to camp as they usually are), currently the price of repair robots is too high for this purpose, you agree with this correct?
Why does it need to be a laner's (i read it as "side laner's") counter, if it is way better suited for mid? The more creeps to share weapon hits, the better repair robots become. (on a side note: you may create a very good repair-robot vs long range scenario on the side lanes with a ghost tank in midgame by the same reasoning)
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2012-09-08, 12:30:04
(This post was last modified: 2012-09-08, 12:30:35 by EarthR.)
(2012-09-08, 12:19:14)Prog Wrote: (2012-09-08, 02:33:58)UnifiedDoom Wrote: (2012-09-08, 01:47:45)Prog Wrote: I think repair robots are pretty good and very underused.
Perhaps, but I think if their cost was reduced they could have a purpose as a laner's counter to bombarding rockets and give them a fair shot at actually pushing the lane (instead of just being forced to camp as they usually are), currently the price of repair robots is too high for this purpose, you agree with this correct?
Why does it need to be a laner's (i read it as "side laner's") counter, if it is way better suited for mid? The more creeps to share weapon hits, the better repair robots become. (on a side note: you may create a very good repair-robot vs long range scenario on the side lanes with a ghost tank in midgame by the same reasoning) because after double mech got fixed there is no counter against a lr laner other than wait and camp or use lr also 
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(2012-09-08, 12:30:04)EarthR Wrote: (2012-09-08, 12:19:14)Prog Wrote: (2012-09-08, 02:33:58)UnifiedDoom Wrote: (2012-09-08, 01:47:45)Prog Wrote: I think repair robots are pretty good and very underused.
Perhaps, but I think if their cost was reduced they could have a purpose as a laner's counter to bombarding rockets and give them a fair shot at actually pushing the lane (instead of just being forced to camp as they usually are), currently the price of repair robots is too high for this purpose, you agree with this correct?
Why does it need to be a laner's (i read it as "side laner's") counter, if it is way better suited for mid? The more creeps to share weapon hits, the better repair robots become. (on a side note: you may create a very good repair-robot vs long range scenario on the side lanes with a ghost tank in midgame by the same reasoning) because after double mech got fixed there is no counter against a lr laner other than wait and camp or use lr also
i love 1vs1 fight on the sidelanes... you have to exactly know how many shot you can take and where you can go whit out dieing. but if everyone at the sidelane got rep. rob. this 1vs1 fight will suck because you cant kill them.
the repair robots works like a armor. i someone shoot at you whit a fireball cannon (1second cd, 157 dmg) and you got rep. rob. he only do 82 dmg and if he hit meanwhile a creep you will be full again.
the repair robots are fine
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2012-09-08, 17:08:17
(This post was last modified: 2012-09-08, 17:13:12 by UnifiedDoom.)
(2012-09-08, 12:19:14)Prog Wrote: Why does it need to be a laner's (i read it as "side laner's") counter, if it is way better suited for mid? The more creeps to share weapon hits, the better repair robots become. (on a side note: you may create a very good repair-robot vs long range scenario on the side lanes with a ghost tank in midgame by the same reasoning)
Perhaps repair bots can be better in mid due, but I don't think that's 100% true. Repair bots offer very little defense against a gank by enemy players, so if 3 mid players choose to attack a repairbot user with spells he's going to go down much faster than a guy with say a steel hull. This also rings true for people who push with repair bots on the side lane.
(2012-09-08, 16:39:07)Perfektionist Wrote: i love 1vs1 fight on the sidelanes... you have to exactly know how many shot you can take and where you can go whit out dieing. but if everyone at the sidelane got rep. rob. this 1vs1 fight will suck because you cant kill them.
the repair robots works like a armor. i someone shoot at you whit a fireball cannon (1second cd, 157 dmg) and you got rep. rob. he only do 82 dmg and if he hit meanwhile a creep you will be full again.
the repair robots are fine
Yes but repair robots lose value over time as the game progresses. By your logic any tank with a field-repair (light tank, scout, medivac) are all overpowered on the side lane.
Your fireball cannon senario doesn't include tank cannon (which is very important to a mid-range fight) or the fact that in a flat out fight where both players are at full hp iron hull would be superior to repair robots.
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(2012-09-08, 17:08:17)UnifiedDoom Wrote: repair robots lose value over time as the game progresses
And that's what I think is the major problem with them: They are very good in the first 10 minutes but at about 30 minutes they become useless and have to be sold to free the itemslot.
Perhaps it would be a solution if it had more upgrades, perhaps 75 -> 150 -> 300
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How can they become useless in the time of deflective armor?
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(2012-09-09, 13:58:25)Prog Wrote: How can they become useless in the time of deflective armor?
Having repair bots + deflective armor would really strain your inventory space. Combine that with items like tp/speed and you don't have much space for hulls/weapons. You'll also need to spend 2100 gold (assuming you had no use for radar, maybe breaker spotting) simply to stop them from using up inventory space. And what is gained for all this effort? +150 hp/sec, that's like the damage of upgraded fireball cannon. The fact of the matter is the usefulness of repair robots remains constant while deflective armor's value increases based on what weapons and how many of them the enemy has. I think you'll really need to be more specific about what tank repair robots are good on during the deflective phase.
If you're talking about Earth Robot however my experience would say otherwise. I tried an Earth Robot build involving all forms of +hp/sec with mass converter (earlier deflective) and ulti pack. The amount of money I spent on blueprints really hindered me throughout the game. In hindsight Earth Robot obviously isn't the best choice with it's inability to heal during granite defense, but then what is? I think I would've been much better served by just having deflective on it's own.
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The point was, that with lower amounts of damage being done per second (due to deflective armor) the engagements stretch and hp/sec becomes better and better. If you disengage properly you win most trades with deflective + repair robots. Disengagement is the key to make repair robots worth it, so you need a mobile, midrange tank.
You should not think in terms of "+150 hp/sec, that's like the damage of upgraded fireball cannon", that is just plain wrong. The fireball cannon has to be in range, the repair robots do not. You go in, trade a couple of shots and move out again - repeat until the opponent either has to go back heal (may lose creeps and positioning) or overextends and you can finish him off. It is a totally different playstyle compared to the easy shortrange style of going all-in every engagement.
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2012-09-09, 18:23:20
(This post was last modified: 2012-09-09, 18:30:17 by Perfektionist.)
(2012-09-09, 13:19:23)ssl Wrote: (2012-09-08, 17:08:17)UnifiedDoom Wrote: repair robots lose value over time as the game progresses
And that's what I think is the major problem with them: They are very good in the first 10 minutes but at about 30 minutes they become useless and have to be sold to free the itemslot.
Perhaps it would be a solution if it had more upgrades, perhaps 75 -> 150 -> 300
No they are usefull up to 50 minutes... after that you can sell them and buy a weapon.
Not everyitem have to be usefull in endgame.
(2012-09-08, 17:08:17)UnifiedDoom Wrote: Yes but repair robots lose value over time as the game progresses. By your logic any tank with a field-repair (light tank, scout, medivac) are all overpowered on the side lane.
Your fireball cannon senario doesn't include tank cannon (which is very important to a mid-range fight) or the fact that in a flat out fight where both players are at full hp iron hull would be superior to repair robots.
every item lose his value over time! and this is normal.
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2012-09-09, 20:39:28
(This post was last modified: 2012-09-09, 20:44:33 by Teo_live.)
I agree that Repair-Robots are crap, they cost almost as much as a gold hull and are not even half as good. However the +75 upgrade suggestion is abit overpriced and will make getting Mass Converter/Ultimate pack even more annoying.
Either they should get a +25HP boost, so 100HP regen when baught and 200HP regen on upgrade. This is simple and will the upgrade should be present in Mass Converter and Ultimate Pack
OR
They should just be cheaper...
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(2012-09-09, 18:23:20)Perfektionist Wrote: No they are usefull up to 50 minutes... after that you can sell them and buy a weapon.
Not everyitem have to be usefull in endgame.
every item lose his value over time! and this is normal.
Perfektionist, I think you missed my point. What other class of weapon loses it's value over time, the answer is longrange. The whole reason I'm trying to say it loses value over time is because I want repair robots to be a short term fix, to a short term problem and that's fighting longrange on lane for the first 10 minutes of the game, which is currently impossible against a good opponent.
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(2012-09-29, 00:54:35)UnifiedDoom Wrote: (2012-09-09, 18:23:20)Perfektionist Wrote: No they are usefull up to 50 minutes... after that you can sell them and buy a weapon.
Not everyitem have to be usefull in endgame.
every item lose his value over time! and this is normal.
Perfektionist, I think you missed my point. What other class of weapon loses it's value over time, the answer is longrange. The whole reason I'm trying to say it loses value over time is because I want repair robots to be a short term fix, to a short term problem and that's fighting longrange on lane for the first 10 minutes of the game, which is currently impossible against a good opponent.
yep but the problem of the repair robots is there is a bad bug... if you got a airship or something an take your gold hull down the repair robots heals you very fast up and you can pick your hull up again and got 4000 hp instant "heal".
hmm maybe increase the healrate up to 85 hp each second. but 100 is to mutch i think :S
or
increase the healrate to 100 or higher but the repair only work if your hp is lower than 50 or 75 %. If your hp is higher than 50 or 75 % the automatic repair stops. like emergency repair^^
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