Q skill range : shredder and storm

[ckibibi]

Hi,

I would like to see the range of those skill change :

shredder :
the Q skill is suppose to deal twice dammages in 400 range.
I find it really too short and not easy to use.
the lowest range in weapons must be 555 (if I am correct) and most close range builds are between 555 and 700 (750 maybe).
Imo shredder is made for close range and the fact that Q skil gives bonus when close seems to have been made in that spirit. But being forced to come too close to creeps or tanks to cast Q skill is not balanced with the weapons range.
maybe increase the 400 range to 600 or 700 so a shredder can cast Q when weapons start firing.


storm :
I dont know whats the cast range of the Q skill, but when I play this tank (always to counter some air builds) the Q skill which is suppose to deal twice dammages to air is like a handicap because :

• storm has less speed than other air tank (before buying speed).
  
• air tanks always move and can retreat fast so to get in range you have to take too much risk (and storm with lower speed and not much hp is really vulnerable).
  
• the tank canon is 1050 range and is a safe harrass to air tanks, mines are safer too with sure hit (you cant miss target like Q skill), and the "pull" skill is good but hard to use with the Q skill.
  
• the dammage of this skill on ground or creeps is like a waste if you dont hit an air tank in the process.
  
• the splash area is really small to hit tanks that keep moving (so you have to anticipate their move and cast in their futur trajectory which is far in their camp when they retreat).
  

So could it be increase to 900 or 1050 range like canon (maybe 1050 too imba but storm is suppose to counter air and air tanks are in most case build for mid range or long range).


All this thought is imo a good way to promote the use of thoses tanks. Because when you think about it the base dammages of those spells (when no bonus) are weaker than tier 1 tank : light tank or heli, and the cost is 3k and 4k. They have been made for non "regular" use (unlike light tank, heli, air zepp, heavy) and imo their Q skills are useless if not used in really rare moment of the game (for the prices of the tanks).

ty,

[Saiyuki]

just a couple of informations as of the most current version (beta)..

Goblin Shredder:
Metal Stars has an AoE of 800, whereas a second wave will be launched shortly after the first but only in an AoE of 400, thus dealing twice the damage to targets in range.

Storm Tank:
Storm Shock has a range of 900 with an AoE of 300. Speed of Storm Tank is 330, way faster than Air Ship (310) and Heli (290).

[UnifiedDoom]

Storm Tank:
Storm Shock has a range of 900 with an AoE of 300. Speed of Storm Tank is 330, way faster than Air Ship (310) and Heli (290).

I'm sorry, but saying something like this makes me think you don't play the game very much. Base speed on heli and airship is almost meaningless with their 3rd skill (and medivac with it's first). Storm tank is easily the slowest air tank in the game except for Sky Fortress.

[ckibibi]

just a couple of informations as of the most current version (beta)..

Goblin Shredder:
Metal Stars has an AoE of 800, whereas a second wave will be launched shortly after the first but only in an AoE of 400, thus dealing twice the damage to targets in range.

Storm Tank:
Storm Shock has a range of 900 with an AoE of 300. Speed of Storm Tank is 330, way faster than Air Ship (310) and Heli (290).

Thanks for the infos,

well for metal stars the problem for me is the second wave in 400 range : useless in regard of the closest range weapon (555) so I ll see it more like 900 to 1000 aoe for first stars and 600 650 for second wave of stars (seing the dammage of a wave : 100, 200, 300, 400; I dont see a problem increasing the aoe for balance cost of tank 3K).


As for the storm tank info :

• speed : UnifiedDomm already made an answer and I agree with him. In game when the time come to buy storm tanks are around lvl7 or 10 so Airship and Heli can (if they chose to) have level their speed skill meaning their speed is like 390 or 400 ( way faster than that poor storm, except maybe when his ulti is cast).
  
• range of storm shock 900 seems pretty good, I think in game I expect to use it like a rocket from heavy or artillery from demo or grenade hunter or lava shot. 900 in air fight with mid range and long range must trick me wrong. I think it would be good to increase the range like aritllery shot from demo or grenade from hunter and add maybe a delay between cast and hit to balance?
  

[Saiyuki]

I'm sorry, but saying something like this makes me think you don't play the game very much. Base speed on heli and airship is almost meaningless with their 3rd skill (and medivac with it's first). Storm tank is easily the slowest air tank in the game except for Sky Fortress.

don't worry, i'm not offended by any sort of critiscm. while it's true that i'm not playing bt online that much anymore, i'm more focusing on the development and testing the most current beta, since we're always in need of feedback. well, let's focus on their skills now.

yes it's true that given 'Jet Propulsion' is skilled (at least twice for heli, once for air ship) these air tanks are faster than the storm tank but the storm tank has 3 skills that might conter faster air tanks. 'Energy Leash' will draw a targeted air unit with around 300 range units per second towards the Storm Tank, 'Air Mines' at level 1 will reduce movement speed by 8% (equals to 24 MS based on 300 MS and up to 120 MS at level 5) and the ultimate, 'Eye of the Storm' reduces movement speed by 16% on level 1 on quite a huge area (even giving an equal movement speed bonus to alled units). this way the storm tank is able to hold an enemy unit quite a while using it's 'air cannon' (switchable between normal and air mode) or 'storm shock' (dealing twice the damage to air units) to deal massive damage.

while a heli and air ship might still outrun a storm tank with their speed, they won't be able to deal any solid damage either since the rocket and the elector shocker will force them to get close enough in range for the storm tank to conter. their other skills (besides their ultimates) won't do any noticable damage either.


it's a fact that you (normally) can't get the storm tank on start so you might even choose to use the time to obtain a speed item when finally changing to the storm tank or wait a bit further to change to the air ship.
so in the end it's up to you how you choose to conter enemy air tanks, considering the situation, the enemies items/weapons and gameplay.


btw, you're always welcome to state your opinions on the current beta regarding tanks and skills.

[UnifiedDoom]

yes it's true that given 'Jet Propulsion' is skilled (at least twice for heli, once for air ship) these air tanks are faster than the storm tank but the storm tank has 3 skills that might conter faster air tanks. 'Energy Leash' will draw a targeted air unit with around 300 range units per second towards the Storm Tank, 'Air Mines' at level 1 will reduce movement speed by 8% (equals to 24 MS based on 300 MS and up to 120 MS at level 5) and the ultimate, 'Eye of the Storm' reduces movement speed by 16% on level 1 on quite a huge area (even giving an equal movement speed bonus to alled units). this way the storm tank is able to hold an enemy unit quite a while using it's 'air cannon' (switchable between normal and air mode) or 'storm shock' (dealing twice the damage to air units) to deal massive damage.

We have to realize though that all tanks have a limited amount of skill points to spend, and as a result at least one skill will stay on lvl 0-1, so its silly to say that storm tank will have all 5 of it's skills at it's disposal at the same time, nobody will be even close to lvl 25 at this point. It's not that storm tank's Q skill is completely useless, it's just that it's really weak. In the few times that I have played storm tank this is the conclusion I've drawn. It's low range and aoe make it hard to use and, like Chiki said, makes you extremely vulnerable when you decide to use it. The damage seems underwhelming, even against air units, furthermore it's one of the few aoe skills in the game that can't reliably kill creeps (damage/aoe too low). The ideal skill set (at least in my opinion) is to disregard this skill (just like heavy tanks do with heavy armor nowadays) completely and focus on the other 4, since storm tank is tier 2 tank bought early to fight helicopters , tank cannon is nessecary to maintain your ability to farm.

[UnifiedDoom]

The point of my post above is that it's better to have tanks with skills that have pros and cons, rather than skills that are strictly inferior to the other skills of the tank and therefore pointless to get (heavy tank's armor skill being the prime example of this). This I believe is the case with Storm Tank's Q skill.

[Saiyuki]

we might take that into consideration, but since the feedback we received on the storm tank as it was implemented and even now is amounted to only a couple of suggestions it may take a while to do so, since we would lack a convincing reason. you might start up a topic to gather some of those pointless skills, so others will have a chance to state their opinions.

[UnifiedDoom]

you might start up a topic to gather some of those pointless skills, so others will have a chance to state their opinions.

http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=3160

Such a topic already exists. But it has since faded into the ashes of history.

[ckibibi]

you might start up a topic to gather some of those pointless skills, so others will have a chance to state their opinions.

http://btanks.net/forum/showthread.php?tid=3160

Such a topic already exists. But it has since faded into the ashes of history.

Indeed forgot about this.
I would not they they are useless skill but not balanced regard to the tank cost and the other skills of those tanks.
In the thread mentionned Althend had already said what I try to write here.(but I dont see them as useless only to hard to use at full potential so most of the time I dont skill them.)
And as UnifiedDomm pointed out regarding the time in game when you pick those tanks you cant use this spells to creep (all tier 1 tanks do better and with more options creeps or tanks). thoses 2 spells have really been made for special use and so lack a bit of diversity.
As I said all I want is to make them more balance an easier to use. But Saiyuki , you said it, it s only one opinion. I know you ll need more feedback.

And to end, just from my personal pov I rarely see those tanks in game with use of those skills.

[RaptorXI]

For me the problem is more low cooldown ~ low damage, which it makes it tempting to use them against creeps and weak in battle.

[Althend]

We all know that shredder is no more viable at 6th minute cause of the nerf of the q skill. (by viable I mean, ok to use in pro games)

But whatever, i don't play anymore so my opinion doesn't count

[BENNIE.FM]

althends tactic is troops nets teleport orbital goldhull speedpack :/

quite troll tactic if you ask me !