2009-10-28, 08:05:12
Sorry, crazy wall of text... Blah blah blah...
Can you explain the first point a bit? I don’t play the Earth Tank/Hunter enough to understand where you’re coming from.
Generally the fear of a demon tank spawns from a person being fed to ridiculous and uncontrollable levels. Also consider this, the Demon Tank player usually saves up his money early game, skipping tier 2 and jumping straight into the demon tank for its burst damage. In contrast, players who go Sky Tank usually buy more weapons, hulls, etc. than their Demon Tank counterpart before transitioning into the Sky Tank. Since it lacks the burst damage but has a greater amount of mobility that make it effective at sniping, the Sky tank is usually bought at a later point in the game than the Demon Tank. Maybe you’re right, but perhaps the fear comes from the fact that the Demon Tank is usually appears much earlier in a game than a Sky Tank merely from the build players are trying to do. The Demon Tank is there for it 2-4k burst damage. The Sky Tank is there to get around and pick away at the enemy armies from a distance (generally), which require players to buy weapons before purchasing the tank itself.
Another consideration to your second point, the Goblin Tank (6500) has greater burst damage from it’s abilities than the Demon Tank (10000), which makes me think that the Sky Tank may be weak compared to the other tanks with it’s one burst damage ultimate or that the psychological impact it somewhat misguided. I think the fed player would be almost as powerful if spent his gold on a Goblin Tank/Item than if he bought a Demon Tank.
The Sky Fortress’s viability is heavily dependent on weapons, which places it comfortably within the two tiers. I say this because the System Overload hinges on the idea that you will be able to deal out more damage to your enemy given that he fire’s back at 50% his weapon DPS. If the SF has bad equipment, then tier 3 will easily overcome the Sky Fortress, but if the Sky Fortress and the Titan are fighting it out with the same end-game weapons, it will often favor the Sky Fortress.
I think option 3 would be the best way to go, as tier 3 and 4 lack dimension, and option 2 seems to be cutting things from the game rather than improving it.
To make my point... As your time-table says,
Considering that full games can last anywhere from 15 minutes to over 2 hours. I would think that tanks in tier 3 are too “weak” to carry players into the end-game. It wouldn’t as so much about “skill strategy” as it is frustrating because the end-game tanks would be unable to accommodate the end-game weapons. The “end-game” would likely consist of 15k Hunters, Demons, Frost Bots, etc. rigged up with Swarm of Chaos and Frost Lasers, which seems much more unfitting than the end-game of Titans/Sky Fortresses rigged with Swarm of Chaos and Frost Lasers. In this case, player will be able to kill tanks in under one second, which will severely limit the playability end-game. If tier 3 were to be the end-game we must do the following things:
1. Shorten the length of the game, so players do no run into “Titan/SoC/FL” stalemates they do now.
2. Lower the power of end-game weapons so the tier 3 tanks won’t be decimated in a fraction of a second.
I see what you say here, but I disagree with one point. I think tier 4 should have some “special” abilities, even if some are to reappear, but I think tier 3 SHOULD lack support.
Although I agree that “Special” tanks cannot fight tanks two tiers above very well, they DO remain effective up until tier four when you consider team dynamics. The Anti-Grav’s double stun and phase out one player for a few seconds, the Shredder’s ability to pull an enemy tank hundreds of yards into your team’s forces, and the Medivac’s ability to mimic KoF makes these tanks very viable when groups fight occur up until the end of tier 3/beginning of tier four when the Sky Fortress replaces the Anti-Grav’s ability with a hold, the Titan replaces the Medivac with KoF, and the Shredder becomes replaced with factories and everyone buying speed-packs.
I think the lack of support tanks in tier 3 is a good thing, as it allows player with a tier 1 tanks to help their team with their “special” tank. It also forces teams (that do work as a team) to decide who should transition into the next tier and become more powerful as an individual and who should stay in the lower tier to provide support that will benefit the team in the overall scheme of the game. This fact also allows weaker/poorer (behind in kills) players to stay with their lower tier tank and remain an effective part in helping their teams.
That said, I do think that tier 4 needs a bigger slew of support tanks to create a better end-game (should a game last long enough to happen). The fact the end-game of Titans/Sky Fortresses/ and Infernals loaded with Frost Lasers/Swarm of Chaos becomes a game of stunning the opponent, teleporting in, and producing as much burst damage as possible is very disappointing when you compare it to the early game dynamics in battle tanks. There’s no army, there’s no healing involved, and there’s very little thought to the timing and placing of skills (except for Keep on Fighting). It would be nice to see more end-game tanks in tier 4 to have a more unpredictable and dynamic end-game, even if that means having certain abilities reemerging (though it would make Battle Tanks a much better game if we can develop completely new abilities).
2 infernals? Where's your teammate? If he's next to you, spread apart so only one of you is stunned, if he's not even there that's a problem... That is a problem when you are outnumbered though.
Meh, it forces the team to work together to move into the upper tier. I could do without it also, but at least they have the option for no/extended/normal upgrade requirements.
Why would you buy a titan or a frost laser, and why SHOULD these options be they be equal in this situation? Shouldn't part of the challenge of the game be knowing when to correctly transition into the next tier or when to build up your equipment. You have 6 slots for weapons/items and only one choice for your tank. Let's take this example. You have a Demon Tank (no weapons) and 20,000 gold. Do you you buy that Titan or buy an upgraded Darkness Cannon and keep the Demon Tank?
A free tank shouldn't be the counter to a 25,000 tank, what meaning does that give to the winning team when the losing team downgrades to significantly CHEAPER tanks to win?
Why not just use a net or a stun to help your ally out of the hold?
Doesn't Dimensional Shift work for that?
Althend Wrote:2/ Gap between tiers 2 and tiers 3
- If we dont take account of sky tank, we can see that there is a weird gap between earth tank (7k) and hunter (9k). The difference of power between these tank is quit much more than 2k. (it is my opinion)
- The psycological impact of tiers 3 is much more higher than tiers 2. (Do people are afraid about sky tank appearing? When demon appear, people get much more careful)
Can you explain the first point a bit? I don’t play the Earth Tank/Hunter enough to understand where you’re coming from.
Generally the fear of a demon tank spawns from a person being fed to ridiculous and uncontrollable levels. Also consider this, the Demon Tank player usually saves up his money early game, skipping tier 2 and jumping straight into the demon tank for its burst damage. In contrast, players who go Sky Tank usually buy more weapons, hulls, etc. than their Demon Tank counterpart before transitioning into the Sky Tank. Since it lacks the burst damage but has a greater amount of mobility that make it effective at sniping, the Sky tank is usually bought at a later point in the game than the Demon Tank. Maybe you’re right, but perhaps the fear comes from the fact that the Demon Tank is usually appears much earlier in a game than a Sky Tank merely from the build players are trying to do. The Demon Tank is there for it 2-4k burst damage. The Sky Tank is there to get around and pick away at the enemy armies from a distance (generally), which require players to buy weapons before purchasing the tank itself.
Another consideration to your second point, the Goblin Tank (6500) has greater burst damage from it’s abilities than the Demon Tank (10000), which makes me think that the Sky Tank may be weak compared to the other tanks with it’s one burst damage ultimate or that the psychological impact it somewhat misguided. I think the fed player would be almost as powerful if spent his gold on a Goblin Tank/Item than if he bought a Demon Tank.
Althend Wrote:3/ Gap between tiers 3 and tiers 4
- Between sky fortress and frost, there is only 1k difference. Theses 2 tanks can handle each other... But the artificial barrier make it much more higher. Should the sky fortress be in tiers 3 or 4 ?
The Sky Fortress’s viability is heavily dependent on weapons, which places it comfortably within the two tiers. I say this because the System Overload hinges on the idea that you will be able to deal out more damage to your enemy given that he fire’s back at 50% his weapon DPS. If the SF has bad equipment, then tier 3 will easily overcome the Sky Fortress, but if the Sky Fortress and the Titan are fighting it out with the same end-game weapons, it will often favor the Sky Fortress.
Althend Wrote:Each tiers has lower amount of tanks. So more the game last, more the variety decreases.
Facing to that there is 3 ways:
1) leaving as it is
2) make fusion of tiers 3 and 4 (decreasing power of tiers 4 tanks) so end game is more based on skills than saving for tiers 4
3) increase amount of tanks in tiers 3 and 4.
I think option 3 would be the best way to go, as tier 3 and 4 lack dimension, and option 2 seems to be cutting things from the game rather than improving it.
To make my point... As your time-table says,
Althend Wrote:Tiers 1 : tanks between 0 to 3500 gold (0 to 20 min)
Tiers 2: tanks between 3500 to 7500 gold (10 min to 40)
Tiers 3: tanks between 7500 to 13000 gold (20 to ...)
\ artificial barrier due to requirement
Tiers 4: 14k to 25k (50 to...)
Considering that full games can last anywhere from 15 minutes to over 2 hours. I would think that tanks in tier 3 are too “weak” to carry players into the end-game. It wouldn’t as so much about “skill strategy” as it is frustrating because the end-game tanks would be unable to accommodate the end-game weapons. The “end-game” would likely consist of 15k Hunters, Demons, Frost Bots, etc. rigged up with Swarm of Chaos and Frost Lasers, which seems much more unfitting than the end-game of Titans/Sky Fortresses rigged with Swarm of Chaos and Frost Lasers. In this case, player will be able to kill tanks in under one second, which will severely limit the playability end-game. If tier 3 were to be the end-game we must do the following things:
1. Shorten the length of the game, so players do no run into “Titan/SoC/FL” stalemates they do now.
2. Lower the power of end-game weapons so the tier 3 tanks won’t be decimated in a fraction of a second.
Althend Wrote:- There are "special" tanks (i mean by special tank, a tank that has ability that remains interesting in all game: for ex: antigrav ulti, guard heal, hunter cloud/ulti, medivac ulti, shredder ulti, scout rune)
Keeping these tanks when other players are 2 tiers above is quit bad choice since the difference of hp is too high. Hp factor/item slot is much more important.
- There is no real "support" tank at tiers 3-4
- Making a tiers 3-4 tanks with shredder ulti, guard healing and anti grav ability would be quit interesting. :p
We like these skills, these are already implemented, isn't it sad that for competitivity we have to play them only at start-mid game ?
I see what you say here, but I disagree with one point. I think tier 4 should have some “special” abilities, even if some are to reappear, but I think tier 3 SHOULD lack support.
Although I agree that “Special” tanks cannot fight tanks two tiers above very well, they DO remain effective up until tier four when you consider team dynamics. The Anti-Grav’s double stun and phase out one player for a few seconds, the Shredder’s ability to pull an enemy tank hundreds of yards into your team’s forces, and the Medivac’s ability to mimic KoF makes these tanks very viable when groups fight occur up until the end of tier 3/beginning of tier four when the Sky Fortress replaces the Anti-Grav’s ability with a hold, the Titan replaces the Medivac with KoF, and the Shredder becomes replaced with factories and everyone buying speed-packs.
I think the lack of support tanks in tier 3 is a good thing, as it allows player with a tier 1 tanks to help their team with their “special” tank. It also forces teams (that do work as a team) to decide who should transition into the next tier and become more powerful as an individual and who should stay in the lower tier to provide support that will benefit the team in the overall scheme of the game. This fact also allows weaker/poorer (behind in kills) players to stay with their lower tier tank and remain an effective part in helping their teams.
That said, I do think that tier 4 needs a bigger slew of support tanks to create a better end-game (should a game last long enough to happen). The fact the end-game of Titans/Sky Fortresses/ and Infernals loaded with Frost Lasers/Swarm of Chaos becomes a game of stunning the opponent, teleporting in, and producing as much burst damage as possible is very disappointing when you compare it to the early game dynamics in battle tanks. There’s no army, there’s no healing involved, and there’s very little thought to the timing and placing of skills (except for Keep on Fighting). It would be nice to see more end-game tanks in tier 4 to have a more unpredictable and dynamic end-game, even if that means having certain abilities reemerging (though it would make Battle Tanks a much better game if we can develop completely new abilities).
griffin Wrote:Next example is infernal against titan - it's been so often I killed a titan with an infernal because of the newly removed delay in chaos teleport. Yeah, it's cool if you're on the winning side - but if you got a titan and suddenly 2 infernals drop in on you, you're dead for sure, as the stun just is too long to escape to anywhere or use kof.
2 infernals? Where's your teammate? If he's next to you, spread apart so only one of you is stunned, if he's not even there that's a problem... That is a problem when you are outnumbered though.
griffin Wrote:Generally I'd be more for having no requirements for tanks at all while balancing them more - why not put the needed upgrades on the cost for titan?
Meh, it forces the team to work together to move into the upper tier. I could do without it also, but at least they have the option for no/extended/normal upgrade requirements.
griffin Wrote:Think about it this way: If you got a heli and 30k you're by far better of getting a titan than a frost laser. Wouldn't you agree?
Also, changing costs and balancing skills and hitpoints a bit more would probably solve the tier problem, as there wouldn't be that much "tank-grouping" anymore.
Why would you buy a titan or a frost laser, and why SHOULD these options be they be equal in this situation? Shouldn't part of the challenge of the game be knowing when to correctly transition into the next tier or when to build up your equipment. You have 6 slots for weapons/items and only one choice for your tank. Let's take this example. You have a Demon Tank (no weapons) and 20,000 gold. Do you you buy that Titan or buy an upgraded Darkness Cannon and keep the Demon Tank?
griffin Wrote:Or you could just add some anti-whatevertank skills to some tanks. A titan-killing skill for tinker would be cool for example (which would just let the tinker neglect that keep on fighting skill).
A free tank shouldn't be the counter to a 25,000 tank, what meaning does that give to the winning team when the losing team downgrades to significantly CHEAPER tanks to win?
griffin Wrote:Or some active revert stun-beam skill for the demolisher, which would shoot the sky fortress across the map and would only be triggerable if you klick a sky fortress which is using it's stun beam.
Why not just use a net or a stun to help your ally out of the hold?
griffin Wrote:Or an anti infernal rain skill for the antigrav.
Doesn't Dimensional Shift work for that?
Starcraft II
PandaBearGuy.614
PandaBearGuy.614