New version

[kingnounours]

I played like 5 games with this new version and i'm not so happy of those three changeup.

1. I hate this old factory style in our base. It's like the third time since I began to play that they change factory and try to bring us to a Spawnning factory in our base. I admit that this ''old idea'' make the game shorter but now there's no more fun of playing a pub game. Now it's like impossible to make a comeback like before.

2. Flying tank are sucking more. All those addition road you did in middle and before the ''special tank shop'' remove an argument to keep a flying tank in our team. Well, I was not a big fan of flying tank because of net but now it's ridiculous.

3. When we are more to capture a factory, it's faster. That make the teleporter more stronger when this item was already the best item.


I got an idea for detector on factory. Can we get like a '' Scan '' like in starcraft for 50 just to see where are the mine.

Thx for other change like:
the new command with mines -md
mana save for troop command center

[TKF]

The factory change is intended to make the game shorter overall and the base spawn factories without heal was a measure to make the losing side lose faster thus making the game shorter.


I'm not sure buffing the usefulness of the teleporter was the purpose of this new version when taking new cps, I've seen many players abuse the teleporter this was and quickens the countdown in an unexpected way.


I don't agree that air tanks has gotten worse due to the terrain changes, despite the mid cps has a backdoor. Air tanks can easily move over obstacles and have great speed which is useful.

[Althend]

Actually. I like the new terrain change but dislike the new factories.
To win again, just focus on the base with mortar. It is kinda retarded.
Especially when there is leavers (4 games on 5?), the team with more players just have to send one player to focus on the base.

The heal reduction when we get damage is enough to make camping less effective...

Concerning the teleport. Yeah this item is even more powerfull/important now.

I think that to counter that, just make tank unable to telep on cp, but something like 1000 range from it.

[olivercamel]

Finally i got time to play a bit 872 games. Maybe i am too old to get used to new changes, but generally i don't like 872. Maybe i will slowly get used to it, but at this moment, i feel myself like a total noob.

I agree most of the points althend mentioned above.

- Control Points are now captured faster, when more tanks are near it
This means the teamwork can decide a game really fast => pub games become less fun than before
For example, in league games, if one of your teammates has less aware of cp protection, a team could lost cps really fast, and I think there is no way i can save it, when 3-4 enemies are coming.
Also it rises the importance of a tp. Now it becomes a must to have (in early game). Without having a tp (or tp in cd), basically i dare not to walk far away from a cp.

- Control Points heal only half as fast, when you take damage
I feel it heals much less than half fast. If i choose a short range weapon, and a mid-long range airship build a barri first and fly outside my range. I feel like nothing i can do, but sit next to the cp till die, and cp lost.

Generally i feel the cp heals a lot slow than before, even without enemy around (with enemy it is even slower).
A bad effect is player need to stay at cp for longer time, after lost hp from creeping. This also slow down the game on the other hand.

I also feel like i lose hp faster than before when got hit by creeps or other tanks. But i didn't find this in the change log.

- The normal factories in each base won't heal anymore and they got a new model
Remove the healing maybe reasonable, but i don't like the new factory model in base.
Also, after lose all cps, the mortars can easily take out all factories. Without cps and factories, there is no way to turnover the game. so the game is more determined, but less fun.

This on the other hand also destroy the fast saving for big tank tactic. E.g. when you save directly to big tank, like inf, while the other team quickly got all frostbot and do team jump to get cps. After the cp lost (and the factories soon), there is no need to get inf at that time.

Besides, in map 872 i got lags from time to time. Feels like a bug of the map.

However, i do like the new commands and the -afkai removed from league. I also think the new terrain changes are ok. (Air tank is not useless than before, it is even more important for cp capture.)


Overall, I don't really understand why we are doing such big changes at this time. 871 was already stable and balanced (although a bit long to play) But 872 is like a new mode completely, and feels like will need long time to adjust it. Shouldn't the mappers spend the limited time focus more on the bt sc2 version?

[091846]

me too long range is fatal .... i agreed with him what is point that you make it so good and next version you change it to a flawed ...... nvm

[Althend]

I would add that after a while, changing content and no adding new content displease more and more players. I am not saying that what dev does is shit or say that they should invest their time in this game but it is about of marketing. Reducing possibilities without adding new one is a huge problem. It is hard to innovate, pro players explored nearly all possibilities. The last major "increase of possibilities" came from the new habit of using meck.** Combined with sc2, it decreases the popularity of bt T_T





** maybe should I experimentate on a new tiers1-swap build where you change tiers1 tank following the situation (medi for support-antigrav for offense-demo for defense)

[091846]

I would add that after a while, changing content and no adding new content displease more and more players. I am not saying that what dev does is shit or say that they should invest their time in this game but it is about of marketing. Reducing possibilities without adding new one is a huge problem. It is hard to innovate, pro players explored nearly all possibilities. The last major "increase of possibilities" came from the new habit of using meck.** Combined with sc2, it decreases the popularity of bt T_T





** maybe should I experimentate on a new tiers1-swap build where you change tiers1 tank following the situation (medi for support-antigrav for offense-demo for defense)

new tank it is better than 8.72 factories changes if you want it on 8.72 please put it into additional mode. i dont like that new changes,i dont like the half heal cp and non heal cp idea but if you in official map of 8.72 you put it as additional mode so that i can try maybe give some suggestion about it ,try to keep original ,
new weapons and tanks it is what i or most players want ....
[size=50]** maybe should I experimentate on a new tiers1-swap build where you change tiers1 tank following the situation (medi for support-antigrav for offense-demo for defense that idea can you please put it up as a additional mode such as 10k mode ,high tech and etc
some time i like to play normal
Reducing possibilities without adding new one is a huge problem. It is hard to innovate, pro players explored nearly all possibilities. The last major "increase of possibilities" came from the new habit of using meck.** Combined with sc2, it decreases the popularity of bt T_T
you have 2 add on mode players will be happy, if you change the map , you are losing away your own normal mode ,why not add them as new modes
remember to add a next button

[TKF]

It depends if there would be need for fixes. But imo I think the non-healing effect in bases should stay and the terrain changes are welcome.



1 new tank will be added in next version most likely (spoiler)

[ArGoLi]

Actually. I like the new terrain change but dislike the new factories.
To win again, just focus on the base with mortar. It is kinda retarded.
Especially when there is leavers (4 games on 5?), the team with more players just have to send one player to focus on the base.

The heal reduction when we get damage is enough to make camping less effective...

Concerning the teleport. Yeah this item is even more powerfull/important now.

I think that to counter that, just make tank unable to telep on cp, but something like 1000 range from it.

y your right with that especially with the mortars...
i had a leaver game today your team 4 vs 5 and it was like you said you cant focus on 5 players if you arent imba so we lost cause one guy fucked our base =(

[BENNIE.FM]

Whats point of playing after loosing all cps now you cant even heal at your facs anymore i hate it i don't mind the terrain changes ,also i think having so many people around or in is to imba for countdown to take over

[GEN_Schwarzkopf]

I hate the new map too.

- Rob

[scron2]

I think I'll go with the long-format kind of post.

An introduction to the obvious problems that these guys were obviously trying to solve:
1) Length of game
2) Changing the way CPs are taken / defended ?

Well I'll admit I don't know much about the problems we hear over and over but they do exist.
Speeding up the game is a good thing. However the new models of factories should be shrunk to their
original size so that pathing is less constricted.

From what I see, taking CPs is faster, turtling is harder because of the reduced regeneration making seiging easier.

I don't have a problem with the middle CP edit. Considering the regen was nerfed it is only reasonable to allow the
tanks in the mid CPs to be able to retreat somewhere.

BUT I'll say this: Taking CPs is faster and the part of the game everyone waits for is to get the gold advantage.
If you can get the kills, you in turn generally get the CPs as well. So really I think the last inherent problem with
this map is indeed the 5-minute-noob-gold. I think the changes so far are actually fairly decent. Remember every
person here is playing with the skewed-view of what they think really balanced is.

I think the threshold of "skill" lies somewhere in the ability to farm, get a good k/d ratio and to take CPs. These all
seem to be reasonable as they are already implemented. How often this gold is distributed affects the speed of the
game overall. I think that saying instead of 5 minutes you multiply the gold given every 4 minutes by 5/4 to shy
away from the whole "HB" concept and keep changing the game in more indirect ways that actually affect the pace
of the game but not to completely bastardize it into some sort of farm-fest where top-tier weapons are seen in every
single game!

Well players might not like the fact that some top-tier items become invalidated by such a short-term strategy game.
But then again I don't play many high level games so I wouldn't really know much here. Sooo somehow the gold
distribution needs to be affected without completely throwing things out of control.

-scron2

[Exodus]

Hey guys,
when I made these changes, I already knew that there would be some controversy about them, but the reason I did it either way is, that I believe it's for the better of the whole game. First of, I'd like to point to the discussion thread I opened in the Beta Forum, where everyone could voice their worries about the latest changes and I also tried to take the arguments very seriously. Like I do now.

1. I hate this old factory style in our base. It's like the third time since I began to play that they change factory and try to bring us to a Spawnning factory in our base. I admit that this ''old idea'' make the game shorter but now there's no more fun of playing a pub game. Now it's like impossible to make a comeback like before.

I'm not sure, which other changes you are talking about, but it's not important. Like I already said in the thread mentioned above, games in which you are pushed back towards your base (and all your CPs are lost), are lost games in most cases anyway. When you are pushed back into your base and you can't do anything, you get frustrated. When you push your opponent back to his base and you can't end the game in less than a half hour, you get frustrated. I just tried to reduce this time, because I believe the most enjoyable part about a game is the fighting for CPs and trying to catch your opponents to get an advantage over them and not trying to prolong the game by at least 30 minutes in which you abuse the protection and massive heal of your own base and feed of even the smallest mistakes the other team makes, since they take a way greater risk than you.

I also might add, that I've seen people fighting back, even when all factories were destroyed. In this case, there is no difference to the old versions, because the factories are gone anyway. You even got possibilites like repairing your buildings, rebuild them and to buil additional buildings like Tinker Tower and Spawning Factories.

2. Flying tank are sucking more. All those addition road you did in middle and before the ''special tank shop'' remove an argument to keep a flying tank in our team. Well, I was not a big fan of flying tank because of net but now it's ridiculous.

Ok, so you personally don't like Air Tanks, but that doesn't mean that they suck or are underpowered. Just because the biggest advantage of Air Tanks are their speed and mobility, doesn't mean we have to cripple the ability of the Ground Tanks to move around the map.
The change near the Tank Construction Hall of the Dark Force I only made, to make the terrain equal to the one of the Light Force side, since they could reach this shop way easier. One reason I changed the mid CP terrain was, to make it easier to capture them, easier to change the lane (since every other CP also has multiple ways that leads to them) and to give Ground Tanks a better chance of escaping from the CP, when the enemy is about to attack. These may be benefits for Ground Tanks, but I don't see how Air Tanks are now any weaker then before.

3. When we are more to capture a factory, it's faster. That make the teleporter more stronger when this item was already the best item.

Well, I was about to nerf the Teleporter too, but I figured this would be too much for now.
It's true, that the Teleporter is an essential item, but the change also makes teamplay and map awareness more important, something that is not provided by any item or ability. It's about the players, which have to adapt and it seems to me, that some players are not willing to. Keep in mind, that a complete team, that goes for a CP was already pretty dangerous and you had to keep an eye on them of course. I just wanted to award aggressive play more, than the passive one (just waiting until the enemy makes a mistake, rather then acting on yourself). This way you take a risk of focussing your power on one CP, with a slightly higher chance of success than before.

Actually. I like the new terrain change but dislike the new factories.
To win again, just focus on the base with mortar. It is kinda retarded.
Especially when there is leavers (4 games on 5?), the team with more players just have to send one player to focus on the base.

Well, this is true, but this also has been this way before, so I don't see the big change here. It's not like just because the normal factories don't heal anymore, you can't defend against a single player, that focusses on sieging anymore.

- Control Points are now captured faster, when more tanks are near it
This means the teamwork can decide a game really fast => pub games become less fun than before
For example, in league games, if one of your teammates has less aware of cp protection, a team could lost cps really fast, and I think there is no way i can save it, when 3-4 enemies are coming.
Also it rises the importance of a tp. Now it becomes a must to have (in early game). Without having a tp (or tp in cd), basically i dare not to walk far away from a cp.

Instead of repeating what I said above, I might add that you can't defend against 3-4 enemies anyway when you are alone. Additionally, when there are about 4 enemies on a single lane and your own team doesn't mind and just keeps on creeping, they deserve to lose the CP, becaue you have to notice the absence of enemies on your lane and watch what they do.

- Control Points heal only half as fast, when you take damage
I feel it heals much less than half fast. If i choose a short range weapon, and a mid-long range airship build a barri first and fly outside my range. I feel like nothing i can do, but sit next to the cp till die, and cp lost.

The trick is, not to stay near the CP to die. The new heal items are also not completely pointless, since they allow you to heal even when you are not at your CP, which means you can drive back a little, regenerate your lost HP and attack your opponent again.
I also tried to keep the total healing rate like it was before, so it shouldn't be slower, but I can check that again. Also, there has been no change to the amount of damage you receive.

- The normal factories in each base won't heal anymore and they got a new model
Remove the healing maybe reasonable, but i don't like the new factory model in base.
Also, after lose all cps, the mortars can easily take out all factories. Without cps and factories, there is no way to turnover the game. so the game is more determined, but less fun.

The main reason for changing the model, was to show that there was an elementary change to the factories - the remove of the heal. At first I also was kinda skeptical, but now I don't mind at all anymore, maybe it just takes some time to get used to. But if you guys feel, that the model is just horrible I can change it back again. Regarding the mortars, just refer to my answer to Althend.

new tank it is better than 8.72 factories changes if you want it on 8.72 please put it into additional mode. i dont like that new changes,i dont like the half heal cp and non heal cp idea but if you in official map of 8.72 you put it as additional mode so that i can try maybe give some suggestion about it ,try to keep original ,
new weapons and tanks it is what i or most players want ....

In my opinion a mode should only modify start parameters of game and not complete game mechanics, because the game feels completely different because of them. You then have multiple modes, multiple gameplays for which you have to balance the games, which just makes it really difficult to balance. I feel it's better if we integrate these things in the game directly and modify them until they fit. This way, we get the best things out these changes, which would normally have been divided in different modes.

Whats point of playing after loosing all cps now you cant even heal at your facs anymore i hate it i don't mind the terrain changes ,also i think having so many people around or in is to imba for countdown to take over

You see, there is another reason for the CP change, it is also easier to take them back, when you are able to pull off an coordinated attack.

Well I'll admit I don't know much about the problems we hear over and over but they do exist.
Speeding up the game is a good thing. However the new models of factories should be shrunk to their
original size so that pathing is less constricted.

In fact, only the model changed, but not the size. The collusion size is the same as before, and so is the pathing.
@the rest of your post: I'm not sure, if I understood this correctly, but do you suggest to somehow change the gold distribution?



Ok, I think I covered most of the critics here. Even if it may seem like it, I don't want to defend these changes until the very end. I'm willing to adjust the changes or even to take them back, but I want you to give them some time and to consider the real impact on the game that they have.

For now I thought about increasing the heal range of the Headquarters and the Vehicle Factory, so they cover a bigger area of the base. I might also add a small heal to the base factories again (like 25% of the original one), but I'm not too sure about this.

There might be some mistakes in this post, but it's way too long to proove-read everything now ...

[GEN_Schwarzkopf]

The heal reduction when we get damage is enough to make camping less effective...

I don't see how CP heal reduction discourages camping. Since heal is slower people are just sitting at the CP much longer now waiting to heal.

Slow heal also makes long range extra gay. A guy can stand outside the CP with creeps and kill a guy trying to heal with long range.

- Rob

[AGGInator]

the mana regen is also taken from the spawn facs right?
everytime i revived i drove between 2 facs to recover my mana fast enought to get a full amount when teleporting.. (espacially if u got batteries)
now it's very annoying to wait 4 or more secs to recover it.. or just teleport and wait there

[GEN_Schwarzkopf]

For now I thought about increasing the heal range of the Headquarters and the Vehicle Factory, so they cover a bigger area of the base. I might also add a small heal to the base factories again (like 25% of the original one), but I'm not too sure about this.

Yes, the lack of healing at Headquarters is very disturbing...a Hunter can prevent all ground unit healing by smoking MAIN. I've seen 5x hunters at end game now...

The whole concept of early CP capture makes for a cookie-cutter early game build to tip the scales and then surf the wave in. I have NEVER seen a comeback from a base seige in 8.72. I have seen alot more quitters. People are just dropping out now.

Respected players are quitting 8.72 games. They've simply had enough. Many others are just hosting 8.71b inhouse games.

Most of the changes are good, but:

I recommend a quick patch to the top 3 problems cited for 8.72 to prevent a 'mass Exodus' from league.

- Rob

[scron2]

Yes Exodus, I suggest/suppose gold distribution is the key to your ultimate success here.

Speeding up gold distributions by 1 minute to accelerate gold accumulation is one key barrier that might
otherwise be completely broken with the idea of adjusting overall bounties on the creeps themselves.
Because that would reward greedy non-team players. Capturing CPs and base attacking is now more teamwork-oriented
so it makes more sense to buff that aspect, no?

I think it's important to still see at least one person have some cool item like supercell without having to wait 2 hours... that's all.

[eSVau]

I do like this version

[TKF]

In fact, only the model changed, but not the size. The collusion size is the same as before, and so is the pathing.
@the rest of your post: I'm not sure, if I understood this correctly, but do you suggest to somehow change the gold distribution?

Maybe increase the very small gold bonus of controlling several CP's. That is low and is nothing compared to the bonus of destroying enemy troop factories in comparison which gives loads of gold.

[091846]

For now I thought about increasing the heal range of the Headquarters and the Vehicle Factory, so they cover a bigger area of the base. I might also add a small heal to the base factories again (like 25% of the original one), but I'm not too sure about this.

Yes, the lack of healing at Headquarters is very disturbing...a Hunter can prevent all ground unit healing by smoking MAIN. I've seen 5x hunters at end game now...

The whole concept of early CP capture makes for a cookie-cutter early game build to tip the scales and then surf the wave in. I have NEVER seen a comeback from a base seige in 8.72. I have seen alot more quitters. People are just dropping out now.

Respected players are quitting 8.72 games. They've simply had enough. Many others are just hosting 8.71b inhouse games.

Most of the changes are good, but:

I recommend a quick patch to the top 3 problems cited for 8.72 to prevent a 'mass Exodus' from league.

- Rob

the 8.71b is better , that is it factory problem go get back your factory