Saving or not?

[Max]

Hi,

Another question about strategy, here it is :

Assuming you have an advantage on your opponent on lane : which choice is better : getting fast heavy (around 18'), get fast cp and start destroying base alone hoping team will hold other sides ; saving more and get a bigger tank (demon - frost) and then go mid and try to destroy players instead of base (in a first time).

I know all depends the game you are playing, but I want some opinions ^^

[stibi-]

#1 heavy at min 18 is not fast
#2 depends on the enemy team
i would not get heavy because it's so slow & will get eaten by gobo

[Max]

Well i said 18 I didn't think about it. When I get heavy while i'm getting advantage on lane I usually have like 3 basics + elec upgraded.
But you understand the idea.
So you would prefer getting a bigger tank later, get cp and then help team than rushing base early?

---

Well this thread is also about sharing you opinion on how would you play on lane with an advantage on your opponent.

[gozo1985]

if you captured your lane get mobile tank/equip and keep pushing the lane to the base.
yeah and keep an eye on the other lane and help him if hes in trouble by farming the attacker.
farming in the back of the mid players when they drive to heal or start an attack also not a bad idea.

if lane is not captured, try your best to do so... if he/they are campers keep calm. campers often lose a lane becouse they are uncoordinated by defending ticking CPs

[stibi-]

this may sound braggy but ... i haven't lost one in of my last 30 games nor my lane
i either conqueror the enemy cp before he gets a tank or i wait for his tank & take the next bigger one / counter tank
air shit - storm tank
heavy - gobo
or i save to deamon if i can
i don't like earth that much as he has no stun
sky is kinda weak imho & hunter gets slapped by deamon

there is no need to rush the base early as i'm getting more and more gold every round compared to the enemy team

[BENNIE.FM]

The obvious thing is between saving or not saving should be judged on what the tank will do to provide an advantage to the team or on the lane.Don't change tank just for the sake of it do it create an advantage or take a cp. For example other day changed to thunder it didn't stop my ability to save or anything or change the game at all.Also you should know what other tanks are being used or being saved for etc like you know someone is going demon in 5 min, don't go airship.Killing base is obviously a huge bonus on a weaker team because the push creates players from middle to defend but also create confusion between players and obviously extra income after killing factories.

[Max]

Thunder is a good alternative to get a fast tank and give the possibility to save for bigger.
I play heavy a lot because this tank is just really powerful and because in a lane when you have some advantage (creeps and/or kills) on your opponent, the only solution for him for stop feeding is getting a hull (that happens...) or getting an air shit etc. which make the heavy even more powerful because it's a weak tank.
If you keep saving, don't you expose yourself to gang from other side? I mean camping on cp or just guys who get fast tp and then you just lose your advantage on your opponent? Finally the only thing to do is to adapt yourself to the opposite team right?

Well the biggest problem rushing base fast is that you loose a lot of creeps if they don't def or loose a lot of gold if they gang. Usually it's one or the other. That's why I wondered if getting fast cp and fast rush in base is worth it, or it's just better to stay on lane some times to keep farming on creeps and keep getting "easy" kills on your laner and wait you are fat enough to attack all over the map.

About earth, it sure doesn't have any stun but it's a good tank for team, since it can share a huge amount of damage due to it's spells, and is a freaking good combo with hunter (I remember some times I was playing with Max_Splash_go when we always destroyed mid games because of that combo ^^).

[BENNIE.FM]

Thunder is a good alternative to get a fast tank and give the possibility to save for bigger.
I play heavy a lot because this tank is just really powerful and because in a lane when you have some advantage (creeps and/or kills) on your opponent, the only solution for him for stop feeding is getting a hull (that happens...) or getting an air shit etc. which make the heavy even more powerful because it's a weak tank.
If you keep saving, don't you expose yourself to gang from other side? I mean camping on cp or just guys who get fast tp and then you just lose your advantage on your opponent? Finally the only thing to do is to adapt yourself to the opposite team right?

Well the biggest problem rushing base fast is that you loose a lot of creeps if they don't def or loose a lot of gold if they gang. Usually it's one or the other. That's why I wondered if getting fast cp and fast rush in base is worth it, or it's just better to stay on lane some times to keep farming on creeps and keep getting "easy" kills on your laner and wait you are fat enough to attack all over the map.

About earth, it sure doesn't have any stun but it's a good tank for team, since it can share a huge amount of damage due to it's spells, and is a freaking good combo with hunter (I remember some times I was playing with Max_Splash_go when we always destroyed mid games because of that combo ^^).

Well state the obvious but i guess it depends if you can camp it out with the aid of your team or the other line holding or pushing, i cant remember loosing a game when i killed factory in first 40 minutes 2-3 facs creates good income and no push from enemy creeps.

[Wupti]

Assuming you have an advantage on your opponent on lane : which choice is better : getting fast heavy (around 18'), get fast cp and start destroying base alone hoping team will hold other sides ; saving more and get a bigger tank (demon - frost) and then go mid and try to destroy players instead of base (in a first time).

The question though is very good, and hard to give a straight answer since its not specific. Instead I will answer with more questions.

1) What minute of the game do you refer to? early? mid? late? In your scenario have you conquered your cp or not?

2) What is your goal. Take the cp? Lane Dominance? Kills?

3) Who is your enemy? Is he passive? aggressive? high elo? fish ?

4) How much attention does your lane get? lot of ganks? Completely ignored?

5) How is your team doing? Do they lead? pressured hard? Saving or Early tanks?

6) Same as above just with enemy team.

7) Does he Play a certain way? Always playing x tank or y strategy?

I'll stop here

Thunder is a good alternative to get a fast tank and give the possibility to save for bigger.

In the current meta I would not recommend this. If the goal is to save for a "big" tank Steel hull is the obvious choice since negator pack is . However if you wanna get tp and gank mid the scenario might be different.

Well the biggest problem rushing base fast is that you loose a lot of creeps if they don't def or loose a lot of gold if they gang. Usually it's one or the other. That's why I wondered if getting fast cp and fast rush in base is worth it, or it's just better to stay on lane some times to keep farming on creeps and keep getting "easy" kills on your laner and wait you are fat enough to attack all over the map.

First let me get one thing straight. Taking a CP is always Very good .
When you take the CP you aren't obligated to stay in your lane, you can always rotate elsewhere and be a nuisance.
Yes you might lose out a few "easy" kills, but securing a CP is always better duo to the income scale and therefore a better gold distribution within your team. Im not sure how much it scale, but be aware that the opponent income decrease compared to if they still had the extra CP. Im not sure how much this is but lets imagine its 200 g + to your team and -200 to your opponents. thats 2k every 5 min. You have to kill a lot to make up for that.

Finally the only thing to do is to adapt yourself to the opposite team right

Which goes in hand with this

this may sound braggy but ... i haven't lost one in of my last 30 games nor my lane
i either conqueror the enemy cp before he gets a tank or i wait for his tank & take the next bigger one / counter tank
air shit - storm tank
heavy - gobo
or i save to deamon if i can
i don't like earth that much as he has no stun
sky is kinda weak imho & hunter gets slapped by deamon

Yes countering your lane should give your lane dominance (go get em Sherlock) and is an easy way to win your lane (if not switch to legion). However i'd like to point out that its clever to get a tank that also do well vs other enemy tanks across the map. So if you enemy has 3 earths mid, goblin is maybe not ideal.

Also be aware that your opponent doesnt control your pick. What I like to do when i play is to force my opponent into what i want him to play. This way you control him without him even realizing it ! So you can put him on tanks where he is less of a threat or tanks that your team counters.
but The most recent i can remember is I play vs a certain guy who always counterpick me. I won't say any names so lets call him Bob.
So often what I do is i buy an relatively early Airship - So Bob buy Storm. Yes this gets him lane dominance, but what i do is I completely ignore Bob and gank mid all the time instead. By doing this I negate his advantage and force him on the tank I want him to play.
It could also be buying demon if you see relative many air tanks in your team, forcing him on earth.

You get the idea

or getting an air shit etc. which make the heavy even more powerful because it's a weak tank.

:huh: who told you this lie!
Imo Airship beats heavy

[Max]

or getting an air shit etc. which make the heavy even more powerful because it's a weak tank.

:huh: who told you this lie!
Imo Airship beats heavy

In my example I talk about a case when you have the advantage on your opponent and force him to get something. In this case, air ship is easy food for heavy. Of course not playing vs one of the 5 top players but in general fight.

To answer your questions, well I asked that not in a particular case, but in general case. My wondering was just about a general way to go on lane, what is the better choice to make. Is waiting the opponent getting something to get the "anti-him" to troll (I know the answer of this one ), is getting a team tank and swap with sb mid, is rushing the cp etc. And to answer one of your question : what is my goal? To win the game

Thanks for feedback anyway ^^

[Wupti]

In my example I talk about a case when you have the advantage on your opponent and force him to get something. In this case, air ship is easy food for heavy. Of course not playing vs one of the 5 top players but in general fight.

Against any decent player you should never be able to land your combo vs an airship

To answer your questions, well I asked that not in a particular case, but in general case. My wondering was just about a general way to go on lane, what is the better choice to make.

With your extremely thoughtful reply to my long post I will answer you back with your own answer

To win the Lane

[Prog]

I disagree. If you use your ultimate before useing your rocket you can land the combo if you are good with aiming the ultimate. Good heavy tank players should be able to do that reasonably often.

[Wupti]

I disagree. If you use your ultimate before useing your rocket you can land the combo if you are good with aiming the ultimate. Good heavy tank players should be able to do that reasonably often.

Using your ultimate first will make it even harder thanks to the animation. You should only hit when they don't care or want to bait you. Airship simply can kite it too easy because its too mobile. Your only hope is a point blank hit duo to over aggressiveness or with a teleport.
Remember we talk about lane here

[Prog]

If you fire your ultimate first your rockets hits at a timing where the Airship cannot possibly dodge/kite the ultimate completely. Lane or not makes no difference for this mechanic.

Edit: The only difference for lane is that your movement before casting your ultimate might be a giveaway. But you can fix that by faking the same movement over and over again.

[Wupti]

If you fire your ultimate first your rockets hits at a timing where the Airship cannot possibly dodge/kite the ultimate completely. Lane or not makes no difference for this mechanic.

Edit: The only difference for lane is that your movement [b]before casting your ultimate might be a giveaway. But you can fix that by faking the same movement over and over again.[/b]

After you use your ultimate there is a small delay before you can use your rocket.
Assuming the airship stays in a safe range and always kite when approaching you by zigzag in unknown patterns you should never be able to hit it.
And if you in some crazy way should be able to hit it the kill potential is very low since it can always back when it see your animation (duo to greater speed).
I'd like to take this discussion elsewhere since it has nothing to do with this thread. Or we can test it in a game

[Max]

Well all depend on player skill. With a heavy tank I can hit my ulti against most of players with air ship, as much as I can dodge most of players heavy tank ulti with an air ship. Players don't play heavy tank well most of the time (they send ulti to straight or to late). With a good use of it, as Prog says, you can hit any tank with a good accuracy.

[stibi-]

currently people tend to save for min 30 demon ... works out most of the time

[Max]

Y those times with the new version demon becomes more popular than before. That's sad because it lowers the amount of strategies to play. Now it's harder to say : hey I'm gonna get an air ship or a heavy tank, 5 min after than there will be 1 hunter and 2 demons...