Influence of Upgrades are to big?

[Frechheit]

Yesterday i was playing a private pro game 5vs5.

My team was leading with 20 kills and then one of the enemy team started to "play"

He placed factorys at the base and make upgrades.

Consequences were 1)creeps are stronger
2)one guy less who creeps and get xp
3)they can but infernal faster


So in the End we lost the game.

Its not only this game. The games before i kinda recognized that always the team wins who make at first 3-4 upgrades to buy infernal faster.In the most cases its the feeder(the player who sucks in the game) who starts to make upgrades and stay in the base -.-
I mean hey thats battletanks and not upgradetanks. For Upgrades YOU DONT NEED SKILL.

So plz my Suggestion is that the computer can make upgrades like before but not the Players.Moreover Maybe not a armor limitation for the infernal and so on. I would prefer a time limitation.

So long Frechheit

[Prog]

I played in this game as well and don't see why there should be any changes. We just played badly in late mid & lategame, no adepting in mid and sidelanes. We deserved to lose, although we are the better players in the long run we didn't manage to show our skill this time.

[TKF]

If the host type -noup, the players cannot upgrade the teams armor and weapons.

But in a normal game, it can be annoying to play against very strong creeps, especially if they also get a factory in addition of massive upgrades.

Sometimes factories are really annoying, like I want an off switch to prevent them to be bought.
-nofactories (-nof)


But in general upgrades are cheaper than they were before, maybe it should be increased again to 2000 gold like in the older versions?

[DerSatan]

i think its fine as it is. -nofactories will never be used (maybe 2-3 times) unless its an option in the custom mode dialogue.


and upgrades do require skill. of course, not micromanagement or reaction, but strategic timing. if you start in normal mode with 2 upgrades, you wont get far. even in addition with factories (which costs a lot of gold all together) its not uncounterable. and a feeder cant really effort much money to do factories and upgrades, or he has already given much more money to the other team before.


for the game frechheit just talked about, i'd like to know how many soulstones/frost magic weapons your team had, if your team had a ghost tank (hp from enemies that die around you), or if you at least placed some factories as well.

[JpOO]

I think the only unbalance here is a Factory price. Its 3500 now (right?..) so its rly cheap. It should be like 4500 at least.

[fithos]

i think there's lot of different strategy.
you don't have just buy big tank and big weapon and kill like cheep.

you can take trade, exploder and tinker. you can buy armor, weapons or up creeps.
if there isn't this possibility, battle tank will become stupid game.

so i think it's a good think and there's nothing to change.

[Vomitus]

I think the only unbalance here is a Factory price. Its 3500 now (right?..) so its rly cheap. It should be like 4500 at least.

Making it cost 4500 instead of 3500 wont make any bug difference if one player only stands on a base and buys factories/grades.
And as I see it - it is not so overpowered as you think. I was several times flooded by this tactic but it happened only those times when my team was critically lame to counter and enemy's team was all about pro. If your team playes normal/good - you'll be able to set your own factories, defend them and push enemies out of yours. If not - you'd lose even if enemy had no factories at all.

[horselance]

If a player buys upgrades, it means they play 1 less guy. 4v3 or 5v4 you must overpower them. Am I wrong? Also you can buy upgrades one per player, so you can share upgrade money instead of playing 1 less person.

[Vomitus]

It was practically my own words but I said them too implicitly ;-)

Generally, playing tactic such as 'stay in the base and buy factories' is critically lame itself. Such person I think can not only buy factories but also take some long range weapons and help others in battles staying behind the lines of fire and providing some support fire. Or it can be a Trader.

[RedNova]

I got a friend who is very good at exploder. Once he reaches "critical mass" (enough damage to blow everyone in team, or most of the team), he spends his money in things that do not raise is bounty, such as factories and creep upgrades. In endgames usually or or two kills (or even better, multiple kills) mean an upgrade or two on the spot.

Violent yet incredibly effective.

[horselance]

So this can be a question of:
"Should (existing) factories and upgrades must increase bounty?"

[Frechheit]

I got a friend who is very good at exploder. Once he reaches "critical mass" (enough damage to blow everyone in team, or most of the team), he spends his money in things that do not raise is bounty, such as factories and creep upgrades. In endgames usually or or two kills (or even better, multiple kills) mean an upgrade or two on the spot.

Violent yet incredibly effective.

Exploder sucks. Just make Teleport breaker and he is nerfed. Moreover Exploder doesnt need skills. Everyone who can play average Bt is a good exploder when the enemies are bad.

[Vomitus]

So this can be a question of:
"Should (existing) factories and upgrades must increase bounty?"

Factories - yes. Bounty increase provided by factory must be affected by upgrades.
Upgrades - yes, but not explicitly.
Each upgrade must increase bounty provided by factory owner.
Let's make some approximate proposals:
Force upgrades will affect factory bounty by X per upgrade.
Teammate upgrades will affect factory bounty by Y = X*4 per upgrade.
Your upgrades will affect factory bounty by Z = Y*2 per upgrade.

This would make additional upgrades to influence much more on a factory owner than Force upgrades. Multiplier 4x was taken because each 5 mins force grades both armor and weapon.
And if you who owns a factory want to buy some upgrades you will receive significant increase in your bounty.
The X must be found such that when both upgrades = 0 Player's bounty for owning factory will increase for same amount of gold that it would if he had a weapon for same price as Factory costs(3500). When both upgrades = 30, this bounty for 1 factory would be three times of a bounty with both upgrades = 0(i.e. same bounty as for owning 10500 gold weapon).
Between 0 and 60 upgrades(30A + 30W) bounty should be distributed linearly.

Now, if someone makes huge amount of upgrades(let us say, 20), his teammate bounty for factory will increase to ((60 - 20) + 20*4) / 60 * 100% = 200%. So when your teammate makes 20 upgrades your factory bounty will be two times more than it would be. (Actually, this percentage changes from 200% to 400% according to amount of total upgrades done)
For a person that makes upgrades bounty for owning factory will increase to ((60 - 20) + 20*8) / 60 * 100% = 333%. (This value also changes according to total number of upgrades - from 333%(when max) to 800%(when 0 upgrades made by force)).

Example:
...
Sorry, have no time for now to make some examples:)
I'll be back later and provide your with good examples if they still be needed.

[horselance]

Horselance wrote:
So this can be a question of:
"Should (existing) factories and upgrades must increase bounty?"

I meant, factories can add to owners' bounty like all other items. And also Upgrades too... If a guy builds 3 factories than he will give nearly a bounty of a Psycho Magic in inventory. Otherwise that built factories dont add to his bounty, which means his bounty is nearly nothing. But he is not "nothing"!

[Prog]

But you get gold for killing his creeps, that's enough to compensate his low bounty. I don't see why anything should be changed with factories/upgrades.

[horselance]

As i remember they give 2-4 gold maybe later 5. +16 gold per spawn. Where a single marine gives 20-25 gold. That is not enough i think.
Also Upgrades are a safe deposit.

[Vomitus]

Well, considering that upgrades make benefit to all team, we could add a slight bounty for each team member when someone buys upgrade.
It's an addition to my previous suggestion.

[Gammagulp]

I dont think that the cost of the factory should increase, cause you can counter troop tactics with 1 or 2 own factories - without upgrades , cause in later game even if the enemy upgrades the difference will become slower. I made my mistakes countering that tactics too, but now i know there are several points the enemy must face too.
--> A troop playing player(maybe trader) got a lot of kills through creeping, but is not fighting often (if he does he could feed, cause he used his money for factories or even upgrades.
--> The enemies play with 1 player more and have the "chance" to get Bonus Gold for creeps - not very much till now, but a bit.
--> Cause the fighting Players lost creep money they lack in income over the time (y I realy experienced it - you are fighting against hordes of creeps and the tanks behind - maybe with long range - dont get much money, if they dont kill players)

Its now just up to you to create a counter tactic. The easiest thing is to attack :mrgreen: , you need to send Players to the lanes - where often no enemies exist and push them... later the maybe a bit weaker enemies (cause lack of income) come to the lanes to defend. If you die just go back to mid.... and change to lane again. It sounds strange, but if you can manage breaking through line or mid, cause you are changing and changing lanes and there is at least one player less. Dont fight all mid - if you do that you can not take advantage of beeing one player more.

In the end take good Tanks for creeping - not the demon - i supposed at least one of you had it - demon is bad for creeping, cause ultimate has very short rage. And buy short range weapons to defend against the hordes and can do much damage if you teleport near to the factories.


There is only one thing what was already said - the bonus Bounty from player creeps in comparison to force creeps is nearly nothing. If the 5 playercreeps (2 marine, 1 air, 1 commande, 1 artillery) give 16 gold and only one "big" force creep has 24 Gold Bounty the enemy gets more money if he only kill one 24 gold creep, even if the enemy tank players get the complete bounty for his troops.
That factories increase the bounty a bit could be a little bonus, but if he hides as tinker behind the lines or even in the base... how to get the bounty ? (trader hunting could be difficult too)
And that upgrades increase player Bounty of normal tanks????? .... give me a reason why - i dont understand it. The enemy tanks must then give more Bounty every 5 minutes too.

[horselance]

There is something disturbs me with these bounties. Those Factory creeps give little gold but Scout Tower gives 4-5 times bounty of artillery-commander. It is only a 40 seconds spawned tower. And Ghost Tank spawns dont give bounty too and Tree's spawns dont give bounty too..

I think they all must give bounty and Scout Tower's bounty must be decreased to half. When you summon a tower, and enemy kills it, he gets nearly half bounty of you.

[TKF]

It's only 10 gold pr level of the tower, + gradually increase. It's counted as a structure.
The tinker towers does also give bounty.

However none of the summoned units done by tanks natural abilities does not give bounty.