Posts: 104
Threads: 24
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation:
0
I've noticed in 8.48, almost everyone starts with scout and long range weapons and that almost all good players who aren't messing around usually switch to heavy tank before doing anything else (except for upgrading their initial weapon). This is very prevelent in league games, especially 3v3 and 2v2. My suggestions are as follows:
I don't think anti-creep weapons needed a nerf a while back, I think the scout does. The scout + 2 old multibows could handle the mid solo like it was nothing, but the problem lies with the scout. The scout hits only creeps from a huge range, creates towers that have lots of life and heal, and the scout also innately heals and despite costing practically nothing, can usually just evade being sniped by demolishers and light tanks. I think something about this tank needs to be nerfed b/c no other tank can possibly creep as well as it can early game, hands down. Perhaps the timer on the tower should be longer, or the towers need to give more gold, or it needs to be slower or perhaps it's creep cannon needs additional nerfing. But please do something to nerf scout, it's too good.
Also, I think armor requirements should be imposed for every tank that costs more than $3,000. I'm not how you want to handle tanks that costs $4500 or $5500 etc., but it's silly. It's always a better strategy to upgrade your tank. Not only do you get much higher hp and armor for the same price as buying a hull, but you get hugely better killing or survivability power and more free item slots. I think that the usefullness of hulls (aside from gold hulls mid to late game) are completely diminished and that placing armor reqs for all these tanks will open the game to a lot more varied strategy. It would make sense to now buy hulls b/c in order for your opponent to get a heavy tank, they have to wait longer or spend extra money on the armor upgrades.
Your thoughts?
Posts: 104
Threads: 24
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation:
0
Oh, for the 4500 and 5500 armor issue, why don't you have a timed event that goes off 2.5 minutes between armor upgrades. That way players have a better sense of time and whatever variable you have triggered by such an event could enable the buying of tanks with costs between defined levels.
Posts: 1,494
Threads: 32
Joined: Sep 2007
Reputation:
5
xenocide85 Wrote:Your thoughts?
We had the exactly same topic quite often, where you can read the discussion and arguments more precisely. I don't want to iterate anything here, so just a short summary: I don't like upgrade requirements for every tank and it would rather decrease the variety of possible strats.
Posts: 401
Threads: 13
Joined: Dec 2007
Reputation:
0
xenocide85 Wrote:I think something about this tank needs to be nerfed b/c no other tank can possibly creep as well as it can early game, hands down...
Your thoughts?
That is the whole point of the tank. It is a creeping tank. That is what it does, your complaint is a bit like saying "no other tank can possibly manouver as well as the helicpoter early game", or "no other tank can survive as well without weapons as the trader" etc...
Complain about an ability being overpowered by all means. Dont complain because a tank does what is it designed to do.
Posts: 572
Threads: 65
Joined: Jun 2008
Reputation:
0
xenocide85 Wrote:I've noticed in 8.48, almost everyone starts with scout and long range weapons and that almost all good players who aren't messing around usually switch to heavy tank before doing anything else (except for upgrading their initial weapon). This is very prevelent in league games, especially 3v3 and 2v2. My suggestions are as follows:
I don't think anti-creep weapons needed a nerf a while back, I think the scout does. The scout + 2 old multibows could handle the mid solo like it was nothing, but the problem lies with the scout. The scout hits only creeps from a huge range, creates towers that have lots of life and heal, and the scout also innately heals and despite costing practically nothing, can usually just evade being sniped by demolishers and light tanks. I think something about this tank needs to be nerfed b/c no other tank can possibly creep as well as it can early game, hands down. Perhaps the timer on the tower should be longer, or the towers need to give more gold, or it needs to be slower or perhaps it's creep cannon needs additional nerfing. But please do something to nerf scout, it's too good.
Also, I think armor requirements should be imposed for every tank that costs more than $3,000. I'm not how you want to handle tanks that costs $4500 or $5500 etc., but it's silly. It's always a better strategy to upgrade your tank. Not only do you get much higher hp and armor for the same price as buying a hull, but you get hugely better killing or survivability power and more free item slots. I think that the usefullness of hulls (aside from gold hulls mid to late game) are completely diminished and that placing armor reqs for all these tanks will open the game to a lot more varied strategy. It would make sense to now buy hulls b/c in order for your opponent to get a heavy tank, they have to wait longer or spend extra money on the armor upgrades.
Your thoughts?
i think you're exactly right. i couldn't agree more. in addition i would just like to add that the heli sux a lot also. it can't farm worth a damn. it should cost less so that u can get a glaive cannon when u get it. pro players with a scout will rape a heli easy. i wish i'd saved the last replay when i had a scout vs a heli... i did post one when i was heli vs fido1's scout in one of my lordaeron threads. i didn't do great, but i think u can still see the imbalance.
the armor requiremnts suggestion you made is right on! the last best tank without the armor requirements becomes overused without it. a.k.a. the demon tank right now.
Why's the rothchild family crest and the illuminati symbol on my 1 dollar bill? Why do rich and powerful American "christian" leaders have gay sex and worship a giant 40 foot stone owl at Beach Grove every year? Why doesn't anyone care?
Posts: 2,503
Threads: 205
Joined: Mar 2007
Reputation:
17
qweqqweq Wrote:i think you're exactly right. i couldn't agree more. in addition i would just like to add that the heli sux a lot also. it can't farm worth a damn. it should cost less so that u can get a glaive cannon when u get it. pro players with a scout will rape a heli easy. i wish i'd saved the last replay when i had a scout vs a heli... i did post one when i was heli vs fido1's scout in one of my lordaeron threads. i didn't do great, but i think u can still see the imbalance.
Just how much do you think a heli cost? Its 1000 gold, so you can easily buy a weapon better than the glaive cannon, for example, I always buy a Basic Cannon for my heli and I have absolutly no problems farming.
This post has been brought to you by Sand - it's everywhere, get used to it.
Posts: 104
Threads: 24
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation:
0
First of all, the scout has a better money to HP ratio than the helicopter and can heal better than the copter. The scout's lvl 3 tower has so much hp and healing power, that it can solo a top or mid wave of creeps and 2 or 3 of them can, I think, solo a team level 1-4 wave in the middle of creeps.
To the idiot who tried to blast me for complaining about the style of the scout, you miss the point... The reason scout is imba is because it creeps to good. I don't know if you realized this or not, but creeping and player killing are the two ways to make money in a quicker than usual and advantegous manner. The problem with the scout is that in addition to being the best creeping pick by far (we're talking 2-4 times better creeping than the next best tank) its also very hard to kill. It move faster than all other early tanks, it heals better than all other early tanks, it can stand in the back of the lines because its creep gun has 1300 range (and most ppl go LR weaponary), and if someone chooses to get a hull with it, you can kiss your chances of killing it good bye until the Heavy Tank and up picks are made (of which scout is usually the first to upgrade when good players are playing).
So my point is this, not only is the scout imba b/c it pushes back creep waves hard and gains money faster than other tanks, but because it's so effective, all anti-creep weapons were nerfed because if the scout were to use them, it would be even more imba. So now, all options for other tanks to creep on a level near the scout have been diminshed. In fact, I rarely see people do well playing as tinker, copter, or demolisher anymore - they just don't have any firepower.
All the starting tanks, imo, seemed a little more on even footing until the scout came along. It should cost more, or be nerfed or something. I also think anti-creep weapons should be restored to their previous effectiveness and the scout should be disallowed from using them.
Oh also, the scout's tower is too good imo too. It completely prevents a lot of tanks from assassinating the scout b/c their weapons can't hit it bc that tower is a huge HP sink hole for dps. You also can't spec dps for assassinating b/c you'll be out tanked before you know it.
Posts: 889
Threads: 58
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
0
xenocide85 Wrote:The scout's lvl 3 tower has so much hp and healing power, that it can solo a top or mid wave of creeps and 2 or 3 of them can, I think, solo a team level 1-4 wave in the middle of creeps.
the first tower of the scout times out (=disappears) long before you can set up a third. even 2 towers you can only have for few seconds.
xenocide85 Wrote:The problem with the scout is that in addition to being the best creeping pick by far (we're talking 2-4 times better creeping than the next best tank) its also very hard to kill. It move faster than all other early tanks, it heals better than all other early tanks, it can stand in the back of the lines because its creep gun has 1300 range (and most ppl go LR weaponary)
if you go for a longrange weapon like bombardement rockets with the scout, you will hardly farm as many creeps as other players with midrange weapons do. if you dont go for very long range, you will waste the range of your anti-creep cannon, but you will farm better than other palyers. for the price beeing much more vulnerable.
2-4 times better creeping than the next best tank ist just ludicrous.
Posts: 1,494
Threads: 32
Joined: Sep 2007
Reputation:
5
DerSatan Wrote:if you go for a longrange weapon like bombardement rockets with the scout, you will hardly farm as many creeps as other players with midrange weapons do. if you dont go for very long range, you will waste the range of your anti-creep cannon, but you will farm better than other palyers. for the price beeing much more vulnerable.
2-4 times better creeping than the next best tank ist just ludicrous.
That's just wrong. Scout with bombarding rocket is the best creeping tank/weapon combo in game. No other combo will farm in 5v5 as much as the scout with bombarding rocket.
Posts: 104
Threads: 24
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation:
0
Quote:the first tower of the scout times out (=disappears) long before you can set up a third. even 2 towers you can only have for few seconds
I meant 2-3 scouts in the middle rather than 1. At any case, the point is that the towers are really strong.
I'm not sure if I agree w/ prog about best creeping strat, but I do think bomb rockets + scout is very good. Bomb rockets can also push away most low tier tanks easily. On the other hand, fireball cannon and electro gun might be more useful because they do more damage and also hit buildings. Either way, the scout is a power house for farming, and that is not ludicrious.
Posts: 889
Threads: 58
Joined: Apr 2007
Reputation:
0
ludicrous is that you say he farms up to 4 times better than the next best tank.
that would mean the you can effort a demon tank at a point when the next best tank cant even effort a goblin shredder. i want to see a replay of that.
Posts: 376
Threads: 37
Joined: Dec 2007
Reputation:
0
Hmmm I have read everything and must say - I´m completely with Xeno, but I know he wrote a bit to "big" some points.
@der satan: pls comopare a antigrav with glaive against a scouit with bow - and later on updatet bow with hull.
In this time the scout could be partly (wave by wave) sometimes get 4 creeps for every creep kill the antigrav gets.
And to the 4 times creeping - the ammount of money you get every 5 minutes + kills you dont meantioned + Gold per second - dont mean 4 times gold , but a good creeper can have demon, when a bad gets a heavy tank, and thats really true.
To the Btanks versions. In our clan we made a little tournament and discussed the version we play. In version 8.48 the drones of the airship got a bug and we dont want to play a version before, when scout has the spell block or the earth robot and scout or even sky fortress are not nerfed a bit.
What I want to say is, we played 8.42 as only balanced non buggy version we found before. And if you play it again, you can see how slow you really creep or tank kill without such new tanks. Even the demolisher with the bow is a really hard creeper and has much HP, nearly everyone, who wants to kill much creeps played it before the scout. (nerfed by new anicreep formula - thx ^^)
As the scout was implemented I wrote, that the creep cannon is really hard - with the answer it got the usual creep-weapon formula, but i meant just its to unbalanced imo. - now comes the feedback :mrgreen:
As result I found the most new tanks maybe ... not balanced enough. Skyfortress ultimate, earth robot when it gots the 70% lower damage ability - but is now more balanced - and finally the scout, who can buy a little hull from the bonus creeping easily and creeps till he is a golden tank with gold engine, gold whells and so on  .
And to the upgrade requierements... ^^, y. it is a demon tank game by now... From Midgame till early endgame. :mrgreen:.
The problem is, that you can afford demon tank maybe after 20-30 minutes. but after 30 minutes you have usally armor upgrade 6. ... the next tank, which I dont see often :/, is the frost robot with 13.
--> without upgrades available: after 1:05 Frostrobot, Skyfortress after 1:20, Infernal 1:30
and the skytank - with this earthquake with low range, stand still, stun ends and only ground ability is not able to counter the demon tank even with 8.000 Gold.
The requirement where implemented, because the imba - Infernal after 40 minutes (or even 35) should be broken - but now it is just changed to demon after maybe 25 minutes. --> the first endgame for real base destroying is the infernal - that means the mappers dont want the equal team game, without additional armor upgrades, be endet before 1:30 ^^(maybe)
-----> This is just my oppinion by now - and only point out the problems, not the solutions, what others could discuss about 
Random Player
- noob, nobody, medium, pro - we will see what happens ^^
Posts: 4
Threads: 1
Joined: Mar 2008
Reputation:
0
ok, my 2 cents:
I agree with the thread starter about the scout-issue. It's ok to have a creep-tank, but the big problem is that it's combined with long range all the time. Before we had scouts, you could play helicopter with bombarding rockets. If you played this way, you needed kills (skill) to make money, because you didn't get a lot of creeps.
The scout can now play long range AND farm well with the towers and his creep only weapon. Another problem is the popularity of the tactic.
In public games the normal match up would be 2-3 scouts, usually equipped with bombarding rockets, a tinker with energy torpedo, a light tank using 2 basic magics and a helicopter with another bombaring rocket.
That's just too much range to be able to compete using multi-bows or a tornado summoner and the game becomes too static cause of the range. Before the scout there were usually 1 or 2 long range weapons on each side, which could easily be handled, but if you now try to approach someone there's too much shit flying your way, before you even get the chance to do something.
Posts: 376
Threads: 37
Joined: Dec 2007
Reputation:
0
I also saw player only playing longrange, but if you play very careful you can go on later with extreme short range +teleport and kill 2 of them easy - but thats a matter of tactic against long range. - maybe you creep a bit less than they do, but can outrun them later with clever weapon and tank buying, because they only have that weak lonk range.
Random Player
- noob, nobody, medium, pro - we will see what happens ^^
Posts: 104
Threads: 24
Joined: Apr 2008
Reputation:
0
@dersatan...
Ok maybe saying the scout is x4 better at creeping than some other tanks is a bit over the top (though tinkers are pretty god damn useless and it might be true when applied to them).
But to relate x4 better at creeping to having x4 the amount of money someone else does is a wrong conclusion. Kills, income, etc. are a significant pecentage of your total money. Someone x4 at creeping also not only takes into account the sheer number of creeps you kill at a certain time, but your ability to creep and stay alive as well as creep and kill. The scout gets high scores in all those areas. Most other tanks don't.
|
