2009-02-20, 08:53:41
Warning: Seriously large wall of text
Let's face it, battle tanks is mostly about getting your weapons to do what you want them to do. If you could choose where every shot landed, battle tanks would not have much skill involved. It's all about making use of the weapons/items you currently have, and getting to another powerful weapon. In my opinion, the major things that matter in a weapon is its range, DPS (of course), cooldown, and tank speed/maneuvering. For defenses, the three main things that matter are HP(duh), speed/maneuvering and creeps. Projectile speed is only an issue in a few weapons (death magic, swarm rockets, bombarding rockets, etc.)
Cooldowns and damage
First, the weapons with a high cooldown almost always have a large amount of damage associated with them. I call the first attack that you hit an enemy hero with the 'impact damage.' This is most easily earlygame with something like a tornado summoner. If you can land a tornado summoner hit and follow up with a good nuke, it will kill many tanks earlygame. The same is true of energy torpedoes. Would you buy an energy torpeedo if it instead dealt 72 damage per shot with a cooldown of 0.5 seconds? Probably not, because it lacks the surprise of a current energy torpedo. Perhaps you would buy it to farm as a tinker, but it would be a largely unused item. Using weapons with a high impact damage happens usually earlygame, as afterwards, players tend to get enough HP to compensate. You don't see too many players using infernal rocks, partly because a lot of the time, it will hit a creep, and secondly, by the time you can get into range with the rocks, you don't have enough HP to fight. Nobody is going to care that you have 6 upgraded frost lasers on your airship if your enemy has an airship with 5 upgraded death magics and a speed pack. High cooldown weapons that have medium-long range are usually used as hero killers, and low cooldown medium to long range weapons are used to farm. High cooldown weapons are vulnerable to creep floods by 3 spawning factories and troop commands and other units. They make bad weapons to clear out hordes of creeps. Low cooldown weapons are typically used as chasing weapons. Players will chase a hero if he (the player) has a laser, but not if he (the player) has infernal rocks. This is because the creeps are likely to stop the last hit from coming in. To avoid this, a player should have high(ish) cooldown weapons at the beginning, then change to lower cooldown weapons.
Ranges
Range is another important factor in the weapon system that is used. A short range weapon is both good and bad. It is bad, because it takes a while to close, but it is good, because it has a higher DPS than long range weapons, and you can often get it to only target the hero. A long range weapon on the other hand, has the advantage because it does not need to get too close to the hero, and can keep out of tower range while hitting a healing tank, or while sitting behind a creep wall. A tank with long range weapons usually decides when a fight starts. However, if in a lane, a short range player can close with the long range player, the long range player will probably be unable to solely hit the hero, as his weapons will still be farming creeps as he tries to run. In my opinion, long range weapons beat short range, (because it is too difficult to close) which beat medium range (higher DPS, easy enough to close), which beat long range. A team with long range can be moderately scattered, and will take less damage from small AoE spells (such as demon tank's ult). A short range team has to hit hard and fast. They have to have enough coordination, or else they will get picked off one by one. Medium range weapons can usually close with long range, if they have enough speed, but the same goes for short range against medium range weapons. Note that by very lategame, all tanks become medium range, as almost all the best items are medium ranged, and players have to deal with more creeps (spawning factories come into play mid-lategame). The only issue with long range is that it doesn't destroy buildings. Therefore, a team can't have all long range, or else they will have a very hard time sieging.
Speed and Tanks
Speed and maneuverability is a lot of a factor in determining when a fight starts or stops. Teleporters can usually say when a fight starts (or stops), unless you enemy has breakers up or if they have a teleport of their own. A higher movespeed is needed if you are chasing a hero, especially if you have medium range weapons. Short range weapons usually need a disable or teleporter to force the enemy to fight close range. A speed boost usually doesn't cover a short range hero getting close. This is why many tanks have the common builds. People play short range weapons on an antigrav, as an antigrav has 2 disables and a pseudo-teleport. Long range is usually found on a scout, as it is fragile but good at farming creeps and a copter can use any type of weapon, as it is maneuverable (air) and somewhat fast. The light tank usually has medium range, but is usually swapped for a heavier tank early on. The copter, being an air tank, should take advantage of terrain. When running from a ground tank, a smart player will run over impassable terrain. A flying tank can harass a land tank a lot in the narrow passages that are near the bottom and top contol points. As well, one of my favorite escape points is the waterfall coming down toward the middle.
Creeps
Creeps are what prevent enemies from just plainly charging at you with short range weapons. Your creeps are your primary defense. They will take damage from most weapons, and push the enemy tank back. Creep flooding is a viable strategy, especially when sieging the enemy base. The extra creeps keeps the enemy tower busy. However, the creeps do give bounty. This makes creep only weapons with a higher DPS than normal weapons usable (soulstone, frost magic) Note that multi-bow would still be viable as it is the cheapest weapon in the game and a decent farming item earlygame.
In my opinion, the ideal team would use 2 scouts with bombarding rockets to farm the side lanes. 2 heroes mid with medium range should be able to hold it decently and still get good experience.
Death Magic
The only long range hero only weapon is death magic, (1300 range), the next highest range hero only weapon is the God's Hammer. This is still pretty far outclassed by death magic, as laser towers have very similar range to the Hammer. While the hammer has 533 DPS and is a bit cheaper (~620 DPS if it were the same price as DM), it has lower range and take up the same amount of inventory space as a death magic. The hammer would be much more of a counter to DM if it did cost the same as a death magic. Both the AA gun and Bombs have too short of a range to counter death magic well at this time. I'm pretty sure that death magic is the most expensive 1300 range item in the game. If it isn't, then I probably don't use it because it has too high of a cooldown to farm enough creeps. (there is not a goblin shop section to reference)
Death magic in 8.57 is an issue. A quick death magic by one player forces the other team to stop whatever it is doing and buy a hull/better tank. While some players might be able to survive this change, if a player has been buying new weapons to hunt, he will have difficulty farming if the other player hunts him. Death magic may be one of the best uses of 10k gold early in the game. Upgraded, it can 1 shot unhulled copters and scouts, and bring a light tank to almost nothing. Although is has a high cooldown, often only a few shots are needed at long range. Its slow projectile speed means that there can be often two for a player at one time. Many people estimate how well they can fight by their current HP, not 2k less than their current HP. The main way to avoid getting killed by two death magics coming at you when you are at low HP is to teleport anywhere, because most of the time, a hero won't risk himself by losing his creep shield. This is by no means a counter. If you have short range, and buy a teleporter to close with a death magic user, if the player is smart, he will buy his own teleporter, or head straight over his creep line. With decent reflexes, he is likely to be able to teleport away from you as you teleport on top of him. As well, he has creep cover, whereas you can't have any, because the magic only targets you. It is unlikely that you will be able to kill the player before he gets an action in.
Currently, I believe the best weapon to defend your base with is death magic. This is because the enemies can't close with you, (laser tower) and it turns into a game of which team can get more HP or death magics. The defending side has a healing advantage, but has to buy items to farm creeps with. Two upgraded repair robots allow a tower to take a huge number of creeps. Two upgraded repair robots cost less that a death magic, and make a tower exceedingly difficult to kill. If the defending side goes death magic, the counters to this are invisibility (only to some effect), death magic, siege packs, or just some really fat tanks.
Lategame, death magic starts to lose out, but many games don't progress this far, and end before a sky fortress/infernal has come into play.
In my opinion, death magic really takes away from the skill required to use weapons, because it automatically targets the hero at a REALLY long range. When sieging, the attacking side might have 50+ creeps charging, and it hits the single hero. I agree to making the short range hero only weapons more powerful, but death magic is extremely good at the moment. A team with ~6 death magics, each player within 1000 range of each other, forces the enemies to attack or tank more death magics, until they die or retreat and lose ground. Long range has a similar effect, but it is dampened by the number of creeps the team has. There is currently no way to increase the number of heroes a team has (illusions, etc.), nor is there any tank with an ability like the faerie dragon's phase shift.
As it is, how do people counter long range/death magic against intelligent and semi organized players?
On a side note, does anyone use net launchers? As well, I don't see too many people using invisibility (it seems to be a good item to counter long range).
Let's face it, battle tanks is mostly about getting your weapons to do what you want them to do. If you could choose where every shot landed, battle tanks would not have much skill involved. It's all about making use of the weapons/items you currently have, and getting to another powerful weapon. In my opinion, the major things that matter in a weapon is its range, DPS (of course), cooldown, and tank speed/maneuvering. For defenses, the three main things that matter are HP(duh), speed/maneuvering and creeps. Projectile speed is only an issue in a few weapons (death magic, swarm rockets, bombarding rockets, etc.)
Cooldowns and damage
First, the weapons with a high cooldown almost always have a large amount of damage associated with them. I call the first attack that you hit an enemy hero with the 'impact damage.' This is most easily earlygame with something like a tornado summoner. If you can land a tornado summoner hit and follow up with a good nuke, it will kill many tanks earlygame. The same is true of energy torpedoes. Would you buy an energy torpeedo if it instead dealt 72 damage per shot with a cooldown of 0.5 seconds? Probably not, because it lacks the surprise of a current energy torpedo. Perhaps you would buy it to farm as a tinker, but it would be a largely unused item. Using weapons with a high impact damage happens usually earlygame, as afterwards, players tend to get enough HP to compensate. You don't see too many players using infernal rocks, partly because a lot of the time, it will hit a creep, and secondly, by the time you can get into range with the rocks, you don't have enough HP to fight. Nobody is going to care that you have 6 upgraded frost lasers on your airship if your enemy has an airship with 5 upgraded death magics and a speed pack. High cooldown weapons that have medium-long range are usually used as hero killers, and low cooldown medium to long range weapons are used to farm. High cooldown weapons are vulnerable to creep floods by 3 spawning factories and troop commands and other units. They make bad weapons to clear out hordes of creeps. Low cooldown weapons are typically used as chasing weapons. Players will chase a hero if he (the player) has a laser, but not if he (the player) has infernal rocks. This is because the creeps are likely to stop the last hit from coming in. To avoid this, a player should have high(ish) cooldown weapons at the beginning, then change to lower cooldown weapons.
Ranges
Range is another important factor in the weapon system that is used. A short range weapon is both good and bad. It is bad, because it takes a while to close, but it is good, because it has a higher DPS than long range weapons, and you can often get it to only target the hero. A long range weapon on the other hand, has the advantage because it does not need to get too close to the hero, and can keep out of tower range while hitting a healing tank, or while sitting behind a creep wall. A tank with long range weapons usually decides when a fight starts. However, if in a lane, a short range player can close with the long range player, the long range player will probably be unable to solely hit the hero, as his weapons will still be farming creeps as he tries to run. In my opinion, long range weapons beat short range, (because it is too difficult to close) which beat medium range (higher DPS, easy enough to close), which beat long range. A team with long range can be moderately scattered, and will take less damage from small AoE spells (such as demon tank's ult). A short range team has to hit hard and fast. They have to have enough coordination, or else they will get picked off one by one. Medium range weapons can usually close with long range, if they have enough speed, but the same goes for short range against medium range weapons. Note that by very lategame, all tanks become medium range, as almost all the best items are medium ranged, and players have to deal with more creeps (spawning factories come into play mid-lategame). The only issue with long range is that it doesn't destroy buildings. Therefore, a team can't have all long range, or else they will have a very hard time sieging.
Speed and Tanks
Speed and maneuverability is a lot of a factor in determining when a fight starts or stops. Teleporters can usually say when a fight starts (or stops), unless you enemy has breakers up or if they have a teleport of their own. A higher movespeed is needed if you are chasing a hero, especially if you have medium range weapons. Short range weapons usually need a disable or teleporter to force the enemy to fight close range. A speed boost usually doesn't cover a short range hero getting close. This is why many tanks have the common builds. People play short range weapons on an antigrav, as an antigrav has 2 disables and a pseudo-teleport. Long range is usually found on a scout, as it is fragile but good at farming creeps and a copter can use any type of weapon, as it is maneuverable (air) and somewhat fast. The light tank usually has medium range, but is usually swapped for a heavier tank early on. The copter, being an air tank, should take advantage of terrain. When running from a ground tank, a smart player will run over impassable terrain. A flying tank can harass a land tank a lot in the narrow passages that are near the bottom and top contol points. As well, one of my favorite escape points is the waterfall coming down toward the middle.
Creeps
Creeps are what prevent enemies from just plainly charging at you with short range weapons. Your creeps are your primary defense. They will take damage from most weapons, and push the enemy tank back. Creep flooding is a viable strategy, especially when sieging the enemy base. The extra creeps keeps the enemy tower busy. However, the creeps do give bounty. This makes creep only weapons with a higher DPS than normal weapons usable (soulstone, frost magic) Note that multi-bow would still be viable as it is the cheapest weapon in the game and a decent farming item earlygame.
In my opinion, the ideal team would use 2 scouts with bombarding rockets to farm the side lanes. 2 heroes mid with medium range should be able to hold it decently and still get good experience.
Death Magic
The only long range hero only weapon is death magic, (1300 range), the next highest range hero only weapon is the God's Hammer. This is still pretty far outclassed by death magic, as laser towers have very similar range to the Hammer. While the hammer has 533 DPS and is a bit cheaper (~620 DPS if it were the same price as DM), it has lower range and take up the same amount of inventory space as a death magic. The hammer would be much more of a counter to DM if it did cost the same as a death magic. Both the AA gun and Bombs have too short of a range to counter death magic well at this time. I'm pretty sure that death magic is the most expensive 1300 range item in the game. If it isn't, then I probably don't use it because it has too high of a cooldown to farm enough creeps. (there is not a goblin shop section to reference)
Death magic in 8.57 is an issue. A quick death magic by one player forces the other team to stop whatever it is doing and buy a hull/better tank. While some players might be able to survive this change, if a player has been buying new weapons to hunt, he will have difficulty farming if the other player hunts him. Death magic may be one of the best uses of 10k gold early in the game. Upgraded, it can 1 shot unhulled copters and scouts, and bring a light tank to almost nothing. Although is has a high cooldown, often only a few shots are needed at long range. Its slow projectile speed means that there can be often two for a player at one time. Many people estimate how well they can fight by their current HP, not 2k less than their current HP. The main way to avoid getting killed by two death magics coming at you when you are at low HP is to teleport anywhere, because most of the time, a hero won't risk himself by losing his creep shield. This is by no means a counter. If you have short range, and buy a teleporter to close with a death magic user, if the player is smart, he will buy his own teleporter, or head straight over his creep line. With decent reflexes, he is likely to be able to teleport away from you as you teleport on top of him. As well, he has creep cover, whereas you can't have any, because the magic only targets you. It is unlikely that you will be able to kill the player before he gets an action in.
Currently, I believe the best weapon to defend your base with is death magic. This is because the enemies can't close with you, (laser tower) and it turns into a game of which team can get more HP or death magics. The defending side has a healing advantage, but has to buy items to farm creeps with. Two upgraded repair robots allow a tower to take a huge number of creeps. Two upgraded repair robots cost less that a death magic, and make a tower exceedingly difficult to kill. If the defending side goes death magic, the counters to this are invisibility (only to some effect), death magic, siege packs, or just some really fat tanks.
Lategame, death magic starts to lose out, but many games don't progress this far, and end before a sky fortress/infernal has come into play.
In my opinion, death magic really takes away from the skill required to use weapons, because it automatically targets the hero at a REALLY long range. When sieging, the attacking side might have 50+ creeps charging, and it hits the single hero. I agree to making the short range hero only weapons more powerful, but death magic is extremely good at the moment. A team with ~6 death magics, each player within 1000 range of each other, forces the enemies to attack or tank more death magics, until they die or retreat and lose ground. Long range has a similar effect, but it is dampened by the number of creeps the team has. There is currently no way to increase the number of heroes a team has (illusions, etc.), nor is there any tank with an ability like the faerie dragon's phase shift.
As it is, how do people counter long range/death magic against intelligent and semi organized players?
On a side note, does anyone use net launchers? As well, I don't see too many people using invisibility (it seems to be a good item to counter long range).
