I'm concerned that with the removal of the double mech tactic in the coming ver, long range on 1v1 lane will be too powerful. I'm curious if anyone has any definite counters against bombards or energy torpedos (burst armor isn't all that good tbh) early on lane. The only one besides double mech that I can currently see is going multibow and playing camping creepkiller until tank (thunder and ghost do very well vs long range). Luckily it seems as though long range is considered to be an abuse on lane among most people, with a few exceptions *cough* tained *cough*, but I still think there's a balancing issue. And don't give me any awnsers about "you should get long range also," if the only way to counter something is to also use it as well then that's just proof of how imbalanced it is.
Possible ways:
- a fast teleporter and camp the other lanes,
- a (hopefully better) Storm Tank,
- against air: nets + one of the Goblins (I've made good experience with Demolisher + Catapult too if he starts with Scout and switches later).
In my opinion Basic magics are the current mainstream weapon (tried lots of 750-900 range builds against the current top 10 ranked but all failed...).
I'm sorry perhaps I wasn't clear. When I said long range on lane I meant how to counter it in the first 10 minutes of the game.
Options like storm tank, teleporter are too expensive to save for without losing a lot of creep. Nets are very expensive early on and each failed net is like 8 creeps wasted.
As for grav, well most people go random on lane so it's not garunteed that you'll just have grav. But even then you'll need at least lvl 2 jump, and assuming you got tank cannon as well you won't be able to do anything until level 5. Meanwhile the enemy will force you to camp and you'll fall behind in creeps. A jump creep build may sound like a good idea, but there's no reason why the enemy long ranger wouldn't get creeps as well, and with a high level jump antigrav can't spend any points on the plasma AOE skill, enless you skip tank cannon.
In my opinion the only tank you can keep up with longrange vs. any other build is scout. All other tanks should fail in time with longrange. But i dislike lanes anyway.
Last time i played lane (scout+bombarding, next steel hull vs. antigrav+molotov) i got countered with double mech - it wasnt a hard counter but a annoying and about lvl 9-10 i lost my xp advantage.
But i think you got it yourself: vs. longrange you have to camp and die of boredom till you can do something.
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(2012-04-29, 18:35:28)eSVau Wrote: vs. longrange you have to camp and die of boredom till you can do something.
This should be changed. I'm not lane playr, but somtimes i go lane and i unprobably often have lr guy on opposite side. I don't like d-mech (it won't work anyway in next ver) so it steals all my joy of playing. I bet not only mine but most of you too.
And all games are made to give ppl fun.
2012-05-06, 20:02:33 (This post was last modified: 2012-05-06, 20:03:04 by UnifiedDoom.)
Heres a demonstration replay of someone using long range on lane against me. The beginning is just freaking terrible, I have no choice except to camp. Even with double mech I'm constantly forced back and fighting at my tower. Without double mech, it would have been much much worse. I think we should consider the use of other "abuse" strategies like longrange on lane before removing double mech too soon...
2012-05-06, 20:19:16 (This post was last modified: 2012-05-06, 20:26:41 by Prog.)
Very bad demonstration. The topic is not about playing against long range + tech mechs with a terrible starting build. And yes, it is terrible. If you just get the mech at start and do not upgrade your weapon you'll have double mech in no time and play at least even in creeps plus you save 150 teleport gold and creeptime.
Now you might argue that it's even worse next version, that might be true, but i doubt it. You could have a hull instead of 1 magic up and the 2 mechs and you would be fine. Just do not start with heli and basic magic any more, it is probably the worst starting build against long range in game. (or rather will be next version) Get a light plasma, up, get a hull, maybe burst. You shouldn't die even once.
Also do not get more weapons, you do not want to prolong the early game tank phase if you play against long range!
(2012-05-06, 20:19:16)Prog Wrote: Very bad demonstration. The topic is not about playing against long range + tech mechs with a terrible starting build. And yes, it is terrible. If you just get the mech at start and do not upgrade your weapon you'll have double mech in no time and play at least even in creeps plus you save 150 teleport gold and creeptime.
At the beginning of the game I did not know I was going to be fighting longrange scout so I didn't take mech. I prefer not to take "abusive" strategies like double mech enless that is the case. The basic magic upgrade is just what I do on lane normally, it could be "terrible" but that isn't what this topic is about. Perhaps you are right and maybe I should have scouted my enemy's build before tp'ing top (we arrived at about the same time). I suppose not all of us are as good as you pro Prog though. I took double mech as soon as I had enough money to do it from where I was at. How the hell is someone who isn't experienced going to deal with long range on lane especially w/o double mech.
(2012-05-06, 20:19:16)Prog Wrote: Now you might argue that it's even worse next version, that might be true, but i doubt it. You could have a hull instead of 1 magic up and the 2 mechs and you would be fine. Just do not start with heli and basic magic any more, it is probably the worst starting build against long range in game. (or rather will be next version) Get a light plasma, up, get a hull, maybe burst. You shouldn't die even once.
Also do not get more weapons, you do not want to prolong the early game tank phase if you play against long range!
What good is double mech + iron hull + one basic, in the replay the scout was killing creeps faster than the chopper with 2 basics and double mech anyway, with just one basic it doesn't matter how much hp you have you're still going to get pushed back.
I don't want to hear anything about burst armor, I've tried it vs bombards and in my experience it doesn't work at all. (though I haven't done it in conjunction with double mech). 800 gold (+cp tp) for just a defensive item is a huge detriment for farming anyway. Meanwhile the enemy is free to buy whatever they want. I want to actually see a replay of this item working on a lane vs bombards before hearing any arguements.
Plus all of the build suggestions you've given (aside from upgrading plasma) are entirely defensive options so you'll still be losing creeps to tower. You can't claim that someone with light plasma and iron hull can push back someone with 2x bombard or some other long range build.
Point is: you cannot demonstrate a supposedly balance issue by giving a replay of you playing not really good. The basic magic upgrade is just always bad, to put it bluntly. Even if you don't want to play double mech, play single mech and upgrade later - it's free gold!
And you do not need to push a long ranger back constantly. His weapons become weaker with time, you have the mid/lategame edge.
(2012-05-06, 21:24:01)Prog Wrote: Point is: you cannot demonstrate a supposedly balance issue by giving a replay of you playing not really good.
Perhaps not by your standards, but I don't think I did that badly in that game (I ended up winning with 22-11-26 stats). The point of this is to make it possible for ALL players, not just pros, to have a fair fight against long range on lane. Which right now I believe that the fight on lane against long range is not "fair" without double mech. Not to be egotistical, but me playing badly might be a more accurate representation of most people playing btanks anyway. You can't expect someone to be 100% good 100% of the time, and I don't see how me making mistakes (in your opinion anyway) discredits the replay, because it's just as likely other people might well make the same or other mistakes in the same situation.
2012-05-07, 09:09:02 (This post was last modified: 2012-05-07, 09:10:02 by EarthR.)
(2012-05-06, 20:19:16)Prog Wrote: Just do not start with heli and basic magic any more, it is probably the worst starting build against long range in game. (or rather will be next version) Get a light plasma, up, get a hull, maybe burst. You shouldn't die even once.
prog i dont think not dieing should be the issue on lane when it comes to playing against lr. If you push you will have to get back to heal you still lose creeps. If you are pushed you lose creeps to tower and dont do any damage to the enemy because of 300 range advantage.
Your suggestion for starting heli is even worse
you start plasma you are against a bombarding for now you both have spend the same amount of money and the one with the plasma might creep a bit better but will have to go back to heal while the one with the lr doenst have to. Second you buy iron hull+burst armor=2050 gold the enemy buys second bombarding you lost any advantage you could have had and you are forced to camp at cp and lose even more creeps to tower
at lane you lose all advantages over time if you play against lr. Thats just my opinion
i just can disagree the opinions, that the burst armor isnt help/usefull.
an example
light tank with 2 basics (upgrade 1-2 till the 5min mark): focus creeping the first 5mins [+try move not in his range, stay close to your flag(where u can reg. "a bit") & the healer and of course skill repair], its hard but u also should get a chance to kill him with rocketlvl2, since u (well, cant speak for all) also should creep better - but of course also just if he does a bad step and came to close to u & the creeps.
So on, u should be able to get a burst armor and also a third basic (yes, no hull).
So if ur enemy get a 2 Bombarding (and probably doesnt desync them), u still creep better then him and avoid his bombardings through the burst armor and the plus of creeps.
no question, its a bit annoying, funless etc. but u can resist the LR-Gaming in the early game in my mind: stay close to the healer and the flag on ur side and focus on creeping with enough dps, get burst armor &/or enough HP and try exploit bad moves of the opponent.
(the tank with the only really big disadvantage is demolisher, at least i think so - ur slow, no reall offensive skill specially vs air, so u have to minefield around ur cp and so the tower grab some creeps).
to the heli with basics, well i would say to get a basic + instant upgrading it + a tech mech isnt that bad (i dislike the plasma anyway, cause of the "slow" animation/flying speed)
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2012-05-07, 13:54:41 (This post was last modified: 2012-05-07, 14:01:22 by Prog.)
(2012-05-07, 12:20:43)LIoOoOoIL Wrote: to the heli with basics, well i would say to get a basic + instant upgrading it + a tech mech isnt that bad (i dislike the plasma anyway, cause of the "slow" animation/flying speed)
You probably did not watch the replay, but we are speaking of a non-random start. So if you want to go basic + instantly upgrading it you cannot get a mech and use cptp at the same time. UnifiedDoom portet with cptp, then portet back in minute 3 to get double mech. If you start random heli, then it is fine because you don't need any additional cptps and waste time without creeping.
@EarthR: I really disagree. At lane you win all advantage over time if you play against lr in my opinion. Long range becomes weaker and weaker, and when you get an Air Ship or Ghost Tank you just do not care about those bombardings any more, if the lr player wasn't fed.
Also Burst + Hull was just in case you need it (see the "maybe" before the "burst"), I'd go with hull only. Burst only is possible, but I think it is more of a gamble. Every good player desyncs the weapons and you can get unlucky deaths just by being randomly targeted a lot. Hull only is the less economic, but safer option. Hull+Burst is the least economic but safest option. I think you just need to get into the mid game close to even ground and you won the lane more or less. It might not be a fun way to play, but this topic is about a supposedly imbalance, not about the fun aspect of playing against long range. (Edit: Burst only is also kinda bad against heli switches from the lr player.)
When you lane against lr, you have to resist the urge of trying to kill him early. It often leads to you overchasing or taking too much dmg while unable to finish him off. The result is you die or you have to heal early and often, negating any creep edge you might have.
If you play patiently and hull at 5min mark (assuming you are light tank or heli, and maybe medivac as well depending on how lane progressed), you will have the advantage afterwards. Most long range player will get a 2nd bombard rocket, so you end up as a 2k heli/light tank against a 1k heli with bombard. One wrong move and he's dead.
I feel like bumping this topic, because it's still an issue. Too many people like TC_mad_bull and Sweden_Bt are taking longrange lane every game with scout and getting automatic victories. Just look at this game 3/4 of the laners go long range (i took it because I knew I was going to be fighting it), it's just plain unfair and overpowered and everyone who picks scout to use it knows it. While double mech was overpowered in it's own right, at least it gave mid-range players a viable counter to this strategy, but now that it's removed there simply isn't any way to fight it on the lane. The long ranger doesn't have to get kills, all he has to do is farm and push the enemy back. In fact enless the long range player makes many many mistakes the best the mid ranger can do is TIE and save for fast thunder.
I think we should rework burst armor to be more effective against bombarding rockets, however this presents a problem because lowering burst's cooldown too much will make it overpowered against mid-range weapons slower like tank cannon.
(2012-07-24, 22:19:42)UnifiedDoom Wrote: I feel like bumping this topic, because it's still an issue. Too many people like TC_mad_bull and Sweden_Bt are taking longrange lane every game with scout and getting automatic victories. Just look at this game 3/4 of the laners go long range (i took it because I knew I was going to be fighting it), it's just plain unfair and overpowered and everyone who picks scout to use it knows it. While double mech was overpowered in it's own right, at least it gave mid-range players a viable counter to this strategy, but now that it's removed there simply isn't any way to fight it on the lane. The long ranger doesn't have to get kills, all he has to do is farm and push the enemy back. In fact enless the long range player makes many many mistakes the best the mid ranger can do is TIE and save for fast thunder.
I think we should rework burst armor to be more effective against bombarding rockets, however this presents a problem because lowering burst's cooldown too much will make it overpowered against mid-range weapons slower like tank cannon.
I said it when they were thinking of changing the mech that it will give huge advantage to lane rangers but nobody listened. Although double mech had its advantages but it had its weaknesses also so it could be countered and if it was countered properly then the one that used the double mech was at a big setback and it had a duration till enemy gets lvl 10 but now with long range in order to counter it at lane you hurt yourself more than gain an advantage over it.
because every lane player who plays against range is different and the player who use it are of all different skill levels in general i find many players who gain advantages with long range buy bad long term.Unless feed aren't that influential in the games out come
though agree with alex even though his didn't relate to the specific replay scouts can be out creept with out dieing and scout buying second weapon is usually fragile build because after level 2 spells are in play most nukes etc missile artillery plasma waves ,however i have vs people who stay 1300 1350 range against me whole time and i cant even get a hit on them.
All i can say is that it is possible to out creep and maybe hold lane and gain advantage after 15+ with team work long range becoming weaker weaker long range is an expensive tactic
@unified i guess you remember the little cobra incident lol 17-1 but that says nothing of range all i know from personal experince i seem to may loose by 10-20 creeps at the end of ten min only against good opponents
Cat power < needs to be implemented into bt
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you wont have problem if you random light tank thats ofc is something given alex, light tank double basic is the best start for a laner. But if you get with anything else you have problems or might have becuase the damage is in favor of scout tank. and this is in general not taking into account specific players like alex or prog creeping better with 1 basic. or 1 molotov the scout will outcreep you in general.
