Buff Goblin Tank

[UnifiedDoom]

I recently just played 2 private games with an allied goblin tank, and I must say this tank is horribly underpowered. Firstly it's first skill simply cannot be used without a tp effectively and reliably (I'll admit it has one of the best ganking potentionals in the game with a tp, but this is countered by simply placing a tp breaker). It relies on nets to hit air units and if a ground tank can stun before the goblin reaches it then the goblin will most likely die. In terms of tier 2 ground tanks think about how much damage heavy can do, and how much damage goblin can do, and it's about the same, but heavy doesn't need to tp or nets to fight effectively. I know it's one of the oldest tanks in the game, but I think it needs a change to keep up with the other tanks in the current midgame.

My suggestion is this, we need to give goblin a skill that synergizes with hammer. The speed bonus from "locking on" and the 3rd skill simply isn't good enough alone, it's so easy to kill a goblin before it can hammer if it doesn't use tp to do it.

I think we should replace the 3rd skill with a variation of windwalk which will allow goblin to sneak up on enemies and use hammer. I don't feel as though smoke machine needs to be the only form of invis in this game especially with all the means we have of revealing invis. The windwalk will raise the goblin tank's speed significantly (enough to make hammer viable which means a lot more than just the "charge" bonus), but also disable the goblin tank from firing weapons while invisible. (this is a double-edged sword as it allows the goblin to sneak up on players as well). Windwalk can be dispelled by using another spell (or perhaps also adding a sub-ability for the goblin to reveal itself). Also this would mean goblin would be a tank with no passive skills, so perhaps if this ability does get implemented the windwalk should be a skill that has a decreasing manacost per level.

[sebbedb]

I dont know, invis in btanks doesnt work as it does in other games, because of the fact that you have permanent vision of the whole map. Sneaking up on someone is alot more difficult, and it would require a rediculously long duration on the "windwalk" to make it somewhat of a guess where the tank will go after you see it dissapear. And that in turn makes it so that you will have to put a very long cooldown on it, which hinders aggresive play, or enable the tank to be almost permanently invis and speed buffed.
But i agree that the goblin need a change.

[ssl]

What about the Hammer ability to make you faster and able to pass through creeps like ghost tank. Often, a single creep can block your attack.

[UnifiedDoom]

I dont know, invis in btanks doesnt work as it does in other games, because of the fact that you have permanent vision of the whole map. Sneaking up on someone is alot more difficult, and it would require a rediculously long duration on the "windwalk" to make it somewhat of a guess where the tank will go after you see it dissapear. And that in turn makes it so that you will have to put a very long cooldown on it, which hinders aggresive play, or enable the tank to be almost permanently invis and speed buffed.
But i agree that the goblin need a change.

the invis was designed more so to prevent the goblin tank from being stunned and focused, before actually getting off it's spells. Now the other team must put more effort into being able to block this ability (before it is so simple and easy). I'm not against the idea of putting invis onto a tank, since smoke machine is the only means of invisibility currently.

The windwalk would also be a means of escape more than just sneaking up on people. Currently goblin is forced to start most fights by using tp, but this is silly because once it uses tp it has no means of escape, usually just a suicide charge. With windwalk however the goblins survivability goes up and it's no longer just a suicide tank.

[Teo_live]

This removes the entire point of BUYING a smoke generator.

Smoke generator has received some rather unfair nerfs both directly and indirectly to the point that it is getting close to useless. Having a "invisi tank" will be the final nail in the coffin as it will make the item almost completely redundant.

Goblin does not "need a change" it is an old loved favorite. If you really want to buff Goblin Tank then improve the W skill or give it a better cannon like a short ranged version of hunter's, but a big no to adding invis.

[Prog]

Smoke gets those unfair nerfs because the community likes to whine a lot instead of trying to handle something. Same with raider, he will be useless soon too. :/

[sebbedb]

the invis was designed more so to prevent the goblin tank from being stunned and focused, before actually getting off it's spells. Now the other team must put more effort into being able to block this ability (before it is so simple and easy). I'm not against the idea of putting invis onto a tank, since smoke machine is the only means of invisibility currently.

The windwalk would also be a means of escape more than just sneaking up on people. Currently goblin is forced to start most fights by using tp, but this is silly because once it uses tp it has no means of escape, usually just a suicide charge. With windwalk however the goblins survivability goes up and it's no longer just a suicide tank.

I see your point, and its not a bad idea. However, i think there can be a more elegant solution, that doesnt remove his passive. The % reduced dmg does alot to a tank that always is in the middle of everything. I think maybe just adding creepwalking (passing through creeps) and maybe a 50% stun reduction when you have your charge buff could go a long way, keeping the old beloved tank as it has been but still giving it a needed buff. As the previous writer says, a creepwave can really fuck up your charge in lane, and changing that would imo do alot to the tank.

[UnifiedDoom]

This removes the entire point of BUYING a smoke generator.

Smoke generator has received some rather unfair nerfs both directly and indirectly to the point that it is getting close to useless. Having a "invisi tank" will be the final nail in the coffin as it will make the item almost completely redundant.

No it does not, in dota there are plenty of heroes with invis abilities and Lothar's Edge (windwalk item) is still very common. There are plenty of tanks like airship that can use temporary invisibility (and usually invunerability) far better than goblin. Plus the nature of the windwalk i'm suggesting disables weapons and makes it different from smoke machine anyway.

Goblin does not "need a change" it is an old loved favorite. If you really want to buff Goblin Tank then improve the W skill or give it a better cannon like a short ranged version of hunter's, but a big no to adding invis.

This tank may be old, but it's definitely not loved. It's one of the least used tanks in all of league next to the likes of gaurd and shredder, and for good reason. Just think about how much money this tank requires to actually be effective, 6500 cost + 3000 teleporter + 1200 batteries, that's 10700 gold, you mays well just buy a demon or hunter at this point since those tanks can be used right away. I do however agree that the W skill also needs a change, it simply doesn't really fit with this tank and is only good for taking out creeps.

[Teo_live]

No it does not, in dota there are plenty of heroes with invis abilities and Lothar's Edge (windwalk item) is still very common. There are plenty of tanks like airship that can use temporary invisibility (and usually invunerability) far better than goblin. Plus the nature of the windwalk i'm suggesting disables weapons and makes it different from smoke machine anyway.

Aside from the fact that this aint dota and it beats me how you can compare apples to oranges...

There is no expensive "smoke generation" item in dota (there is a similar item, but it is cheap as chips), nor does dota have any unnecessary invisable redundancies added to the game to make invisable haters happy. Yes what you are suggesting is different from smoke (barely), it is smoke + plus a bonus. We really don't need things removing the incentive for people to buy a smoke generator (there is barely any incentive as is).

Also I happen to like Goblins 3rd passive skill is very useful, why you chose to screw up his useful 3rd skill rather than his borderline useless 2nd skill is beyond me.

This tank may be old, but it's definitely not loved. It's one of the least used tanks in all of league next to the likes of gaurd and shredder, and for good reason. Just think about how much money this tank requires to actually be effective, 6500 cost + 3000 teleporter + 1200 batteries, that's 10700 gold, you mays well just buy a demon or hunter at this point since those tanks can be used right away. I do however agree that the W skill also needs a change, it simply doesn't really fit with this tank and is only good for taking out creeps.

Um... I don't know which league games you have been playing, all the ones I have been playing Goblin tank is picked 24/7. The least picked tank by far would have to be architect, but the latest buffs he will get with mass converter buffs should change that

He doesn't actually need the teleporter early on to be effective (unless your up against mass-air, in which case I would poke a stick at your brain and ask you why the hell did you pick goblin?). You could use the same argument for Demon tank, why save up for a teleporter+Demon when you can buy a frost for that money?

It is a tank loved by many people (no one would chose it if it wasn't). I agree that Goblin tank should have a buff as his hammer should pass through creeps, smoke should be buffed for ground tanks so it is once again usable with Goblin, his cannon and W skill are up for a buff as well. But don't change him into something completely different and don't remove his solid 3rd skill. I like a Goblin-Tank, I don't like a Bone-Clinks-Tank

[UnifiedDoom]

There is no expensive "smoke generation" item in dota (there is a similar item, but it is cheap as chips)

Are you implying that smoke machine is expensive? 3k is easily comparable to how much lothar's edge costs in dota (or are you comparing it to something else, your post is very vague)

nor does dota have any unnecessary invisable redundancies added to the game to make invisable haters happy.

Like what?

Yes what you are suggesting is different from smoke (barely), it is smoke + plus a bonus. We really don't need things removing the incentive for people to buy a smoke generator (there is barely any incentive as is).

You're wrong here. The "incentive" of smoke generator as I see it is that it can be used to achieve invunerability against people with detection while still firing your own weapons. The windwalk i'm suggesting will disable Goblin's weapons so he can't sit at a cp and fire all his guns while not being able to be counterattacked like the current smoke machine users can.

Also I happen to like Goblins 3rd passive skill is very useful, why you chose to screw up his useful 3rd skill rather than his borderline useless 2nd skill is beyond me.

I actually considered saying "replace the 2nd skill" in my first post because I felt it had no synergy with goblin's other skills, but the 3rd skill seemed to be more of an equivilent to what I was suggesting (a speed and survivability boost) and a tank with 3 different skills that all boost speed in some way seemed a bit redundant to me.

Um... I don't know which league games you have been playing, all the ones I have been playing Goblin tank is picked 24/7. The least picked tank by far would have to be architect, but the latest buffs he will get with mass converter buffs should change that

Haha you're right, architect is so under-used I forgot to even mention it . I don't play as many ranked games as I used to, but in the bt games I have played most serious players prefer heavy and thunder over goblin in terms of tier 2 ground tanks. The whole reason I started this post is because one player on my team was picked goblin in a priv game and I was shocked at how painfully useless it was, even at level 10 without tp.

He doesn't actually need the teleporter early on to be effective. (unless your up against mass-air, in which case I would poke a stick at your brain and ask you why the hell did you pick goblin?).

Actually I would say air units are the only thing goblin IS effective against without tp, and that's because you can use nets on them when they are over trees and drag them right in front of you. But even so just think about all the matchups, in mid it's a hopeless situation for goblin without tp, enemies are likely to have stuns/slows, and focus fire will destroy you. On the side lanes things aren't much better. Thunder and heavy (the two classic goblin victims) can actually very easily get off all of their spells before goblin get's off his, this means that you're very suseptible to being ganged up on, and if they have enough hp to survive both your spells (which any intelligent player would) the goblin is very likely to lose the fight anyway. It's a hopeless fight against Earth Robot and granite defense (or it would be if it wasn't glitched ). So really the only things goblin would excell against would be tier 1 ground (scout, light tank, and demolisher), and heavy can do that job much better (and against air units too). The only time a goblin would be effective without tp is at a cp fight, and that's going in via cptp. And even then Earth's enormous power at cp's (albeit nerfed soon) makes it a far better choice if the game is camp either way especially vs mass ground.

---

(continuing post, I didn't like having that much unsaved text on the screen at once)

You could use the same argument for Demon tank, why save up for a teleporter+Demon when you can buy a frost for that money?

Yes but unlike Goblin, Demon does not need tp to be even just a tiny bit useful. You must prove to me that Goblin can be effective without tp before you can argue this point. (my claim is that goblin since goblin isn't effective without tp there's no point in spending the 6500 gold on the tank that could be spent on other stuff because you actually need a total of 10700 gold to actually make the tank useful)

It is a tank loved by many people (no one would chose it if it wasn't). I agree that Goblin tank should have a buff as his hammer should pass through creeps, smoke should be buffed for ground tanks so it is once again usable with Goblin, his cannon and W skill are up for a buff as well. But don't change him into something completely different and don't remove his solid 3rd skill. I like a Goblin-Tank, I don't like a Bone-Clinks-Tank

Keeping things the same just because they're old and established isn't a good arguement. (I've been asking for a heli-nerf for years, it's easily as overpowered as raider but noone seems to care because it's been like that for ages). My problem with it was that it was so easy for heavy tank and thunder tank (tanks that goblin is supposedly supposed to "counter" to just beat him 1v1 outright). Do you have any idea how weak goblin would be if the upgraded burst armor becomes mainstream? and it's already weak as it is.

Currently everything goblin CAN do is counterable. It's a tank that's borderline useless without tp and even with tp is simply countered by a 300 gold teleport breaker. Even if the enemy doesn't place breakers simply HOLDING the upgraded burst armor for 2400 gold (soon to be slightly more) is enough to make the goblin's signature "combo" basically useless. Because it HAS TO iniate with tp as long as the target is holding a tp and has enough hp to survive 2.5 seconds of dps (so easy with deflective armor and hulls) the target can run away just fine. Unlike other tanks that can start fights without tp and can chase if the enemy flees with a tp by having a tp of it's own, goblin can do nothing at all.

[Prog]

How do you counter a Gobo with teleporter with a single teleport breaker?

How do you counter a Gobo with a Thunder tank on side lanes?

Why do you compare Gobo with the perfect counter to Goblin (earth)?

You view seems very biased. Gobo is just fine and wrecks games if played well, because it punishes mistakes very hard. You cant stop gobo from creeping. You cant stop gobo from destroying your tower. As soon as he gets porter you cant stop gobo from getting kills by roaming around a lot and creating 2v1s. Just a single Gobo can make the whole opponent team play very defensive because of the insane burst damage.

[UnifiedDoom]

How do you counter a Gobo with teleporter with a single teleport breaker?

Perhaps a "single" teleport breaker was an exaggeration. But I was dicussing a player from mid getting goblin+tp and using it to gank the side lanes. A coordinated team effort can score a kill of course in a 2v1, even if the goblin gets hit by a breaker, but just getting hit by one breaker will probalbly make goblin's think twice about ganking agressively a side lane for longer than just 3 minutes. Goblin in my view is the only tank can't "play around" a teleport breaker without actually destroying the breaker both for ganks and teamfights.

How do you counter a Gobo with a Thunder tank on side lanes?

It's plausible to assume if both players don't have tp that thunder will get it's spells off first every single time due to the higher range. This means that goblin is very suseptible to being 2v1'd by the enemy team if anyone from the thunder's team is camping. Plus thunder will also have an extra 2500 gold to work with, this is easily enough to buy steel hull or upgraded burst armor, two excellent goblin counters. So as long as the thunder is playing defense (which is easy for thunder with arua), goblin will always be taking a huge risk if it even tries to attack the thunder, because unlike other tanks it's very easy to see when goblin is going to attack before it actually does. Of course thunder won't be able to play "offensive" against a goblin (which is pointless anyway), if goblin can do one thing it's camp effectively with 2 different aoe spells against creeps.

Why do you compare Gobo with the perfect counter to Goblin (earth)?

Because it has a similiar price and supposedly the same purpose (counter to mass ground and a close range fighter). Albeit one is more of a "ganker" where the other is more a "teamfighter."

You view seems very biased. Gobo is just fine and wrecks games if played well, because it punishes mistakes very hard. You cant stop gobo from creeping. You cant stop gobo from destroying your tower. As soon as he gets porter you cant stop gobo from getting kills by roaming around a lot and creating 2v1s. Just a single Gobo can make the whole opponent team play very defensive because of the insane burst damage.

I'll admit my view is biased, this entire post was inspired by a player's bad play with goblin without tp. Any tank can do extremely well if played by a good player (even architect ). I played another ranked game yesterday with an allied goblin that proves this point. But he switched when he was rich, and almost completely skipped the weak "goblin without tp phase." Heavy can roam around just as well as goblin and get the same results (although being slightly harder to use) and heavy doesn't need to deal with the extremely slow start without tp. Either type of armor will make goblin solo ganks look like a joke (except vs mass ice cannon in which upgraded burst is clearly superior).

[Prog]

A Goblin does not sologank, unless one is well ahead. It is the best 2v1 tank in the (mid)game. You wait for a bad movement of someone, port and kill him 2v1. Or you wait for a teamfight in mid, port into it and turn it into a easily won 4v3. Heavy cannot compete due to its low speed and being not even close to the Goblin's burst damage.
Goblin is also a tank most suited for side lanes. The kit is just not as good for mid because it lacks safe initiaton. Also ganks from mid are easier with air tanks. Well coordinated Gobo/Air tank teams can 2v1 opponents even at their side lane cp easily. Breaker are really not that big of a deal. They cost a lot and if your team plays well you should rarely miss them placing the breaker, so you rarely port into one. (in pubs that is a bit worse, because players dont notice breakers or dont write anything about them being placed)

After a couple of successful ganks you get farmed enough to 1v1 anyone and the game is most likely won (perfect scenario). You have the optimal items already to switch into Sky-Fort as well.

Because of the specific way the Goblin has to be played (or at least I think it should be played), Thunder is no counter at all. You might be fine 1v1 at first, but you cannot get those easy kills all around the map and will fall behind as soon as your teammates make mistakes (and they always do). Thunder has also absolutely no way to be aggressive against the Goblin. A counter is not something which just stays alive itself in 1v1, but something which actually beats the Goblin. Thunder does not beat the Goblin in anything, except that it is cheaper and has some room when the opponent still has a starting tank. After that Goblin and Thunder creep similarly. Goblin has better ganks, better tower attacks (those little goblins are safe towerkillers), better mobility, better burst damage. Sooner or later the Goblin will always be ahead.*

That is all easily said though. Goblin is a very borderline tank. It needs the gold from ganks to get ahead. In a 1v1 farmfestival a Goblin has no advantage over a Thunder. If one tries to gank and fails, the tank falls behind quickly, because the damage output has to stay high enough to burst opponents. This is why a badly played Goblin is very useless and a well played Goblin is most often fed and snowballs. More so than the general "good player can do well with everything" this is a tank which only good players can do well with. Anyone can farm defensivly with a heavy tank, click the occasional stun for a kill and do ok, but to do ok with a Goblin you have to do more than just that. You need to exploit the opponents mistakes. But that is no balance problem, rather a result of the Goblin's design. Any change to make it somewhat easier to play will make it either overpowered, or be a complete redesign of the tank. (invis would be more on the overpowered side btw. There would be absolutely no way to react to someone ganking who you cannot see and he would be more or less immune to counterganks).

*Just to complete the picture: Earth on the other hand is not so item dependent and can pressure the goblin a lot with his built in escape and tankyness, denying the chance to roam around frequently. Earth also does better at team/cp fights. That is a real counter in my opinion.

[UnifiedDoom]

A Goblin does not sologank, unless one is well ahead. It is the best 2v1 tank in the (mid)game. You wait for a bad movement of someone, port and kill him 2v1. Or you wait for a teamfight in mid, port into it and turn it into a easily won 4v3. Heavy cannot compete due to its low speed and being not even close to the Goblin's burst damage.

Actually Heavy's burst is easily comparable to goblin's in my opinion. At lvl 10 heavy has (Q: 1200 + R: 800x) where goblin has (Q: 2000 + R: 1280), so as long as 2 shots from heavy's ulti hit, then the damage is only about 500 less, and heavy actually has the potentional to exceed goblin's burst if 3 or more shots of ulti make contact (heavy of course is naturally harder to position for ganks than goblin). You could argue goblin has an extra 1.2 seconds of stun, which could be the difference beetween the enemy teleporting out or not, but heavy's extra 1500 missle range could also make the difference. I feel Both heavy and goblin are very slow without speed boost, even with goblin turbo, but didn't you spend those points on riot anyway?

Goblin is also a tank most suited for side lanes. The kit is just not as good for mid because it lacks safe initiaton. Also ganks from mid are easier with air tanks. Well coordinated Gobo/Air tank teams can 2v1 opponents even at their side lane cp easily. Breaker are really not that big of a deal. They cost a lot and if your team plays well you should rarely miss them placing the breaker, so you rarely port into one. (in pubs that is a bit worse, because players dont notice breakers or dont write anything about them being placed)

Well every tank is going to do better with the extra money that comes from side lane you can't deny that. My arguement is that "everything goblin can do, heavy or earth can do equally or better." My point is heavy has a comparable burst but it doesn't have to deal with the extremely slow start that goblin has without tp. If the opponent has tp, heavy can still start a fight and tp after them, but for goblin starting a fight without tp is basically hopeless.

After a couple of successful ganks you get farmed enough to 1v1 anyone and the game is most likely won (perfect scenario). You have the optimal items already to switch into Sky-Fort as well.

This is true, Goblin does have the advantage of having a core build which is perfect for both Infernal and Sky Fort. However I think it's going to take more than a "couple" ganks to get as farmed as you say though, especially if your aiming for 2v1's as you said, you can't always garuntee you'll be the one with the kill. (Airships will usually have twice your dps and at a range too)

Because of the specific way the Goblin has to be played (or at least I think it should be played), Thunder is no counter at all. You might be fine 1v1 at first, but you cannot get those easy kills all around the map and will fall behind as soon as your teammates make mistakes (and they always do). Thunder has also absolutely no way to be aggressive against the Goblin. A counter is not something which just stays alive itself in 1v1, but something which actually beats the Goblin. Thunder does not beat the Goblin in anything, except that it is cheaper and has some room when the opponent still has a starting tank. After that Goblin and Thunder creep similarly. Goblin has better ganks, better tower attacks (those little goblins are safe towerkillers), better mobility, better burst damage. Sooner or later the Goblin will always be ahead.*

I'm sorry perhaps i was unclear, I was not pointing to thunder as a counter for Goblin, you are correct that Earth is the best tank for that. Most people in league however consider goblin itself a counter to "squishy(low hp) ground tanks" such as thunder, and that for thunder it is a hopeless fight vs goblin on lane. I was just pointing out that thunder (and heavy) can hold it's own on a lane vs goblin no sweat simply because goblin is so weak without tp.

---

That is all easily said though. Goblin is a very borderline tank. It needs the gold from ganks to get ahead. In a 1v1 farmfestival a Goblin has no advantage over a Thunder. If one tries to gank and fails, the tank falls behind quickly, because the damage output has to stay high enough to burst opponents. This is why a badly played Goblin is very useless and a well played Goblin is most often fed and snowballs. More so than the general "good player can do well with everything" this is a tank which only good players can do well with. Anyone can farm defensivly with a heavy tank, click the occasional stun for a kill and do ok, but to do ok with a Goblin you have to do more than just that. You need to exploit the opponents mistakes. But that is no balance problem, rather a result of the Goblin's design. Any change to make it somewhat easier to play will make it either overpowered, or be a complete redesign of the tank. (invis would be more on the overpowered side btw. There would be absolutely no way to react to someone ganking who you cannot see and he would be more or less immune to counterganks).

I agree with this observation 100%, goblin does indeed rely on mistake exploitation and map awareness to be at all effective. However my suggestion was designed to give goblin an alternate form of fight initiation than tp (so it could actually run away somehow, or follow people who tp out) and make it's hammer somewhat usable early on. I admit that adding invis onto any tank would be a very drastic change, and virtual immunity to counterganks is definitely an unintended consequence (though earth robot already boasts this same immunity). There is however also basically no way to react if the goblin ganks via cptp followed up with a tp (which is where i take 90% of the ganks would happen, if the enemy pushes close to an allied cp) so an unpredictable gank isn't unheard of already. Because the entire minimap is illuminated it is possible to see where all the heros are, but more importantly it's possible to see in the case of an invis goblin that he does not appear on the minimap, which is a signal for caution of course. I feel that a hammer charge without tp is the most blatantly obvious and avoidable attack in the entire game which is why i wanted to charge the nature of it since this tank is a "ganking assassin."

[Prog]

1. Just to get things clear: 3 Hits with Heavy Tank is practically impossible, more then 3 is completely impossible. 2 Hits can be reliably done. So you get based on those 2 spells your ~500 less dmg with Heavy. Which is a lot at level 10 (at lvl 10 you probably won't even have more than 500 dps). Adding the extra second of stun with shortrange makes a huge difference for the target to be able to teleport away or just die before being able to*; the better speed of the Goblin (The heavy tank is just so slow. A Goblin with (partly) Riot skilled might not be the fastest, but in comparison with the Heavy it feels like a formula 1 car); a 3rd aoe damage spell (if you can afford the mana): The better ganker is pretty clearly the Goblin in my opinion. At least I am way more scared of a Goblin porting to me, than a Heavy, because I know I won't be able to use my own teleporter any more.

2. About the immunity to counterganks on earth: It is true that he has this escape, but he is a really bad ganker due to the lack of a stun. An invisibility Goblin would be a brillant ganker and could then escape easily. If he gets fed once he will raid people at cps and just run away invisible all the time, which is probably no fun to play against (breaker + detector for the whole game at all cps is also kinda expensive).

3. While I do agree that Goblin feels a bit like a "sit around doing nothing" tank until porter, I don't think that giving him such a gamebreaking change would do any good. It is better to make people use the Goblin riot spell and control those little goblins. The tank does not feel so useless while waiting for porter when you are pressuring the cp/opponent with them. At most I'd suggest reducing the mana cost of Goblin riot to encourage spending a couple of points into that. (The speed bonus is not that big without any items anyway)



*Missle range cannot make up for that. You might get the occasional long range missile kill, but you can dodge the missile and with the additional second of stun you can deal another complete dps round. The damage done until the opponent can port is thus with Goblin 500+dps+Goblin Riot (if available) higher than with Heavy. The rocket has way better utility in mid, but just for ganking it is worse.

[BENNIE.FM]

please dont change gobo at all

[progg]

agreed with doom. I remember 2 years ago gobo used to be choosen often. now it's almost never used. most of players knows how to counter gobo couse it's easy. even when it has tp, if you're fast u can just tp like 800-1000 units from gobo who just tped to you and u got the advantage.

[RaptorXI]

I don't think gobo is too weak. Rather that most builds go for 4500-5500 gold tanks or cheaper tanks with hulls and make it too hard to save (I actually try to follow that mainstream and prefer Tier 3 tanks but don't see the other tanks of Architect and above either anymore...)

[EarthR]

I don't think gobo is too weak. Rather that most builds go for 4500-5500 gold tanks or cheaper tanks with hulls and make it too hard to save (I actually try to follow that mainstream and prefer Tier 3 tanks but don't see the other tanks of Architect and above either anymore...)

because there is no point in going for tanks like architect/goblin/earth(has the w skill bugg, but even without it)/sky/even demon and frosty anymore since they are all useless against a tank that costs 1850(raider). and the people who go for thunder/airship/heavy well they are playing those tanks almost always thats why we still see them being used if it wasnt for thatt those tanks would disappear also imo.

[Teo_live]

Teo_live Wrote: nor does dota have any unnecessary invisable redundancies added to the game to make invisable haters happy.

Like what?

Some examples:
- Dota does not have unnecessary improvements to gem, Btanks received unecessary improvements to radar
- Dota constantly buffs invisible, battletanks constantly nerfs invisible
- Dota allows the ability to be hit and remain invisable, btanks removed this feature
(I could go on for several pages, but this is offtopic.)

Also you can't compare lothars to a damn smoke generator. Unlike lothars, Smoke generator does not have such huge incentive as increased damage, attack speed, walking speed, and a rather cheesy backstab multiplier. Dota also has "fog of war" which adds incentives for lothar's scouting tactics, btanks has no fog so scouting is useless. Again though, this is offtopic, we should stop talking about dota >.>
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I won't quote everything you said (or my post will be a fricken essay long), but adding invis to Goblin changes him into something entirely different. If you feel Goblin is underpowered, why not make his CURRENT skills better, rather than change his skills entirely? A buff to his hammer and boost will do well