Infernal is too weak

[Lezowski]

Compare the damage of it's spells to frost robot, who costs 5000 less and requires no armor. The ultimate also got nerfed and is easily canceled by stuns. Most of the spells miss anyway, they don't have perfect accuracy like the frost robot spells.

[horselance]

First time hear this. Its quite balanced now. Its faster than other end game tanks, can jump and can deal insane amounts of damage very quick.
Frost Robot dont have this qualifications. But easier to use. And it has quite much damage comparing to its price. Because it was boosted a lot later versions which it was not good enough before.

[Lezowski]

I know what the Infernal can do. I'm just saying that the damage for the skills is a little too low.

[Althend]

The inferno ulti has bigger area and dont need any aim... The frost can also be stunned T_T

[unpredictable_m]

mb making frost robot weaker could balance the difference between them.. or making it more expensive.. infernal is ok

[Lezowski]

The inferno ulti has bigger area and dont need any aim... The frost can also be stunned T_T

You don't have to state the obvious. I'm pretty sure everyone in the forums know about this. Infernal's ultimate is pretty good, but the damage of the other spells are really weak compared to it's price. Chaos Teleport only does 1750 damage. The Frost Robot stun does 2000. Infernal can use it as a teleport, so it is naturally a better spell. However, the infernal robot costs 5k more and requires 18 armor upgrades. For that price, the damage should be a lot higher than the frost robot's stun.

Chaos Wave does 2250 damage at level 5. Frost robot's ice bombs do 1750. A difference of 500 damage, for such a big price gap? Chaos Wave should do a lot more. Frost bombs are also homing; they automatically target anyone nearby. Chaos Waves has 50 more range, but the enemy can easily dodge it by moving out of the range or teleporting. Once frost bombs find it's target, it follows them. That means it can go outside its 750 range if the enemy decides to run.

[IlPalazzo]

You don't have to state the obvious. I'm pretty sure everyone in the forums know about this. Infernal's ultimate is pretty good, but the damage of the other spells are really weak compared to it's price. Chaos Teleport only does 1750 damage. The Frost Robot stun does 2000. Infernal can use it as a teleport, so it is naturally a better spell. However, the infernal robot costs 5k more and requires 18 armor upgrades. For that price, the damage should be a lot higher than the frost robot's stun.

Chaos Teleport does 1750 damage in AoE damage, meaning if the enemy is cluttered together, you can ideally get 8750 damage and ~12.5 seconds of stun time if you hit five targets (not to mention it's a good way to clear away creeps and such near your enemy), something the Frost Bot's ice prison does not do... How often does this happen? Not often, because players know if they clutter together they will get hit like that, therefore they're forced to move apart from one another, which inofitself is an advantage to have in group battles. More realistically, I would say you would hit 2/3 enemy tanks in a battle consistently, in that case you have 3,500 Damage and 5 seconds of stun or 5,250 damage and 7.5 seconds of stun... Which is still substantially more powerful than the ice prison.

Chaos Wave does 2250 damage at level 5. Frost robot's ice bombs do 1750. A difference of 500 damage, for such a big price gap? Chaos Wave should do a lot more. Frost bombs are also homing; they automatically target anyone nearby. Chaos Waves has 50 more range, but the enemy can easily dodge it by moving out of the range or teleporting. Once frost bombs find it's target, it follows them. That means it can go outside its 750 range if the enemy decides to run.

If you're attacking an enemy base, where will they teleport/move to? Away from the factory or his teammates? In that case, that's probably a good thing.


So buying the frostbot saves you 5,000 gold in raw costs, and anywhere from 0-24,000 in upgrades (but more realistically around 9,000-12,000).

In contrast buying the Infernal has these advantages:
-5,000 HP More ||| (Worth about 6,250 gold in Hulls)
-15 Move Speed ||| (Worth about 300 gold in a speed pack)
-Chaos Teleport ||| A skill with a teleport (3,000 Gold), 1,750-8,750 burst damage, and 2.5-12.5 seconds of stun.
-Chaos Wave ||| A skill 500 Damage/target, 500 - 2,500 burst damage more to heros (And thousands when you account for additional creeps, buildings, etc.)
-Infernal-Fire Rain ||| Covers more than x5 area that Blizzard has (900 YD Radius), deals 1,120 more Damage/Target (6,400 Damage/Target), 30% movement debuff (Blizzard stops mobility), can manipulate affected area by moving (Blizzard is Channeled)

From raw value in HP/Movement/Teleport that equates to about 9,550 gold, and from skills you are gaining a variable amount of damage (~1,500 to <10,000)... Is this worth paying 5,000-17,000 (29,000 if you wanted to buy it right away, but who does that) more in gold for this tank?

IMHO, if I'm taking a side-lane and fighting a 1v1, I'd take the Frost Bot and use the extra money to buy a weapon instead; however, towards the end of the game when the game forms into a team battle/base siege, the ability for the Infernal to dish out tens of thousands of AoE damage and some extra stuns is invaluable. I'd take it in a heartbeat over the Frost Bot. - I think it's fine the way it is, each tank has its niche use, which is how things should be - otherwise certain tanks would never be used.

[Lezowski]

In contrast buying the Infernal has these advantages:
-5,000 HP More ||| (Worth about 6,250 gold in Hulls)
-15 Move Speed ||| (Worth about 300 gold in a speed pack)
-Chaos Teleport ||| A skill with a teleport (3,000 Gold), 1,750-8,750 burst damage, and 2.5-12.5 seconds of stun.
-Chaos Wave ||| A skill 500 Damage/target, 500 - 2,500 burst damage more to heros (And thousands when you account for additional creeps, buildings, etc.)
-Infernal-Fire Rain ||| Covers more than x5 area that Blizzard has (900 YD Radius), deals 1,120 more Damage/Target (6,400 Damage/Target), 30% movement debuff (Blizzard stops mobility), can manipulate affected area by moving (Blizzard is Channeled)

From raw value in HP/Movement/Teleport that equates to about 9,550 gold, and from skills you are gaining a variable amount of damage (~1,500 to <10,000)... Is this worth paying 5,000-17,000 (29,000 if you wanted to buy it right away, but who does that) more in gold for this tank?

IMHO, if I'm taking a side-lane and fighting a 1v1, I'd take the Frost Bot and use the extra money to buy a weapon instead; however, towards the end of the game when the game forms into a team battle/base siege, the ability for the Infernal to dish out tens of thousands of AoE damage and some extra stuns is invaluable. I'd take it in a heartbeat over the Frost Bot. - I think it's fine the way it is, each tank has its niche use, which is how things should be - otherwise certain tanks would never be used.

Please don't compare chaos-teleport to teleporter, they aren't in the same league. Also, who would chaos teleport into a group of 5 tanks? Sure, you might get 2 or 3 in one casting, but it doesn't make up for the many times you miss. The extra speed isn't any better than frost aura. It has more hp obviously, all bigger tanks have this and it isn't specific to Infernal. Maybe you should consider the extra amount of gold you need to shell out for armor upgrades?

Don't bring creeps into the argument of a tank's spells. Especially an end game tank, what good are creeps then other than meat shields? I'm talking about raw tank killing power, which the infernal lacks for such a high cost. A buff to its spells wouldn't hurt, titan will still be better than it in most ways possible and sky fortress will still be able to do its thing. I think Chaos Waves is especially weak.

[IlPalazzo]

Please don't compare chaos-teleport to teleporter, they aren't in the same league.

Guess it's worth is a matter of opinion here... Maybe the range isn't as good, but it does have 1,300 range, which is good enough to clear the gap on any enemy tank with long range weapon. For me, that's good enough to consider it a legitimate teleport.

Also, who would chaos teleport into a group of 5 tanks? Sure, you might get 2 or 3 in one casting, but it doesn't make up for the many times you miss. The extra speed isn't any better than frost aura. It has more hp obviously, all bigger tanks have this and it isn't specific to Infernal. Maybe you should consider the extra amount of gold you need to shell out for armor upgrades?

Don't bring creeps into the argument of a tank's spells. Especially an end game tank, what good are creeps then other than meat shields? I'm talking about raw tank killing power, which the infernal lacks for such a high cost. A buff to its spells wouldn't hurt, titan will still be better than it in most ways possible and sky fortress will still be able to do its thing. I think Chaos Waves is especially weak.

Without the delay Chaos Teleport can't be that hard for someone to manipulate... Is it? ... Personally, I find it much more difficult to keep players under Blizzard fire with the Frostbot than it is to hit them once with the Infernal's teleport. Though I have to agree the small speed boost the infernal has is nothing compared to the Frostbot's Frost Aura.

Nonetheless, the point I was trying to make the Infernal Tank may be an inferior tank when you pair it up against the Frost Bot 1v1, but as battles turn from 1v1 to 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, or even 5v5 team battles it becomes increasing more powerful than the Frost Bot. The infernal's ultimate alone does up to 6,400 Damage per target, meaning you can dish out 18,400 damage in a 3v3 group battle. Blizzard cannot achieve anything near these numbers, the fact that it covers only a 5th of the area and require channeling makes it exceptionally hard to pull off anything substancial in a group battle... That alone makes Infernal Tank very well worth buying (even when you consider the additional 9,000-12,000 your team has to invest into upgrades), especially if your trying to attack an enemy base where you have to fight the entire enemy team and their factories/towers.

[Lezowski]

I'm not saying frost tank is better than Infernal, its obvious that the infernal is stronger. Compared to the Sky Fortress and Titan, however, the Infernal has no use on an end game team. The infernal can't even end games like the titan does, I've seen many people, myself included, waste 9k thinking that infernal would actually win the game. Just go straight to Titan, Infernal's skills do too little damage to rape everything like the Titan's does. The only thing infernal can do is deal damage with its skills over a fairly short period of time. All 3 of his skills together only do 10k damage, with the Infernal being so offensively orientated it should do a lot more.

[Prog]

I think you underestimate the strength of the infernal in 2v2+ battles and against cps/main base.

[IlPalazzo]

All 3 of his skills together only do 10k damage, with the Infernal being so offensively orientated it should do a lot more.

Though I agree you're better off going Titan if have access to it...

Adding up the abilities that the Titan has, it can only do 10k damage to enemy tanks as well, at an additional cost of 7000-17500 for upgrades and such... Unless the tank was made more expensive to buy, I think what the infernal has is good enough.

[Lezowski]

I think you underestimate the strength of the infernal in 2v2+ battles and against cps/main base.

I think you underestimate Sky Fortress and Titan because they are so much more worth it than Infernal.

Adding up the abilities that the Titan has, it can only do 10k damage to enemy tanks as well, at an additional cost of 7000-17500 for upgrades and such... Unless the tank was made more expensive to buy, I think what the infernal has is good enough.

Titan has it's ultimate, your argument is invalid. Not to mention it only takes 2 spells to achieve 10k damage while Infernal has to use all 3...

[IlPalazzo]

Titan has it's ultimate, your argument is invalid. Not to mention it only takes 2 spells to achieve 10k damage while Infernal has to use all 3...

Hm... I don't think I made my argument clear, so let me ask it this way... How much do you think the extra HP and KoF on the Titan is worth? Right now the Infernal Tank can dish out the same amount of damage in abilities as the Titan, which outprices Infernal by 7,000-17,500 gold. Yes, you're right the Titan has two quick spells while the Infernal has three, but you have to keep in mind that the Titan's AoE is "Ground ONLY." In the end it evens out, especially if there's a couple Sky Fortresses/Sky Tanks roaming the end-game. Assuming both the Infernal and Titan currently have about the same damage impact in abilities, the main advantages the Titan has over his Infernal counterpart is his extra HP and his ultimate KoF (while the Infernal has the extra jump from his stun)... Are these advantages worth more than the 7,000-17,500? If so, then how much more damage do you think the Infernal should have to balance out this gap?

[eSVau]

Hmm,

if the infernal do as much damage as the final tanks of Battle Tank then maybe the infernal is way too STRONG!

The first guy purchasing an Infernal will easily kill every other Tank just with his overpowered AOE-skills. Using Infernal skills is a child's play, you dont even need to target since all active skills have a (very) huge area effect - wave 800, rain 900, even teleport has an ae.
As told before u can conclude that surviving an infernal attack below 10k HP is nearly impossible and now think about how many tanks below infernal survive an infernal initial attack.

infernal is too weak - rofl, ymmd

[Lezowski]

Titan has it's ultimate, your argument is invalid. Not to mention it only takes 2 spells to achieve 10k damage while Infernal has to use all 3...

Hm... I don't think I made my argument clear, so let me ask it this way... How much do you think the extra HP and KoF on the Titan is worth? Right now the Infernal Tank can dish out the same amount of damage in abilities as the Titan, which outprices Infernal by 7,000-17,500 gold. Yes, you're right the Titan has two quick spells while the Infernal has three, but you have to keep in mind that the Titan's AoE is "Ground ONLY." In the end it evens out, especially if there's a couple Sky Fortresses/Sky Tanks roaming the end-game. Assuming both the Infernal and Titan currently have about the same damage impact in abilities, the main advantages the Titan has over his Infernal counterpart is his extra HP and his ultimate KoF (while the Infernal has the extra jump from his stun)... Are these advantages worth more than the 7,000-17,500? If so, then how much more damage do you think the Infernal should have to balance out this gap?

Acid cloud is ground only but that doesn't stop it from being one of the most overpowered spells. All I'm suggesting is maybe 250-500 damage for his skills. Also, does Titan's Q spell really do only 5000? It seems like it does a shit ton more.

Just delete this topic. It's nothing more than me and IPalazzo bickering back and forth.

[horselance]

Acid cloud will be reduced from 4% to 3% in next version if read the log. Keep this in mind too.

[Lezowski]

Acid cloud will be reduced from 4% to 3% in next version if read the log. Keep this in mind too.

Not the point. The point is that ground only spells are just as good as multi-target spells.

[IlPalazzo]

Also, does Titan's Q spell really do only 5000? It seems like it does a shit ton more.

Yes, test it... 5,000 damage is a shitton in of itself... That's a good 1/2 - 1/3 health off any 2nd/3rd tier tank with a hull.

Acid cloud will be reduced from 4% to 3% in next version if read the log. Keep this in mind too.

Not the point. The point is that ground only spells are just as good as multi-target spells.

No they aren't, unless the spells deal more damage or everyone on the other side has ground tanks, they're subpar to all target spells for obvious reasons... Ground only spells do zero damage/stun/slow/etc. to air tanks. That doesn't mean they can't be overpowered, because acid cloud in its current state very well is, but given the same damage/area/etc. all purpose spells are definitely better than their ground only counterparts and only 'just as good' when your enemy doesn't have air tanks. The fact that Sky Fortresses doesn't have too worry about the 5,000 AoE damage is certainly an advantage it has against the Titan.

Nonetheless, at the moment the Infernal Tank can dish out the same amount of damage the Titan Tank can do (maybe a tad bit more), about ~10,000 per target (across a substantial amount of area too). Given it's considerably cheaper price, that's enough - and at this time, I think most people agree. Maybe at later time people will see it's too weak (or too strong), but for now most people see this a good spot for the Infernal Tank to be. I guess you'll have to deal with it or personally avoid buying the Infernal Tank in game until changes are made.

[qweqqweq]

Several times in a 3k or 5k game I've seen 3 to 5 infernals on the same team be quite effective. You're talking about a tank with a shitload of hitpoints, an aoe stun/teleport, and 2 other aoe damage abilities, all centering around it's location.

sure, 1v1, it can get raped by frost robot, sky fort, and titan, but that's the kind of strategic choices that make battle tanks so awesome imo.