HP Upgrades to beat Titan Wars

[Teo_live]

Battle tanks unforunately becomes Titan Wars during the event of late game. You might get the odd maniac or 2 keeping a Sky Fortress instead but all-in-all the effect is still the same, an utterly boring end to what was probebly a fantastic game. Couple this with mass supercells and you have the most mundane game in existance. Super Titan Wars yay!

Well here is the thing. Aside from mere skill damage, the biggest reason to choose Titans/Infernal/Sky late game is their massive HP/Armor advantage over other tanks. Other tanks really don't stand a realistic chance unless you are up against complete nubs. This pretty much forces everyone to eventually follow suit and buy the same crap over as well.

Personally I think battle tanks will be much more interesting late game if we allow other tanks to participate. The only way to do that would be to increase their Hp and armor respectively. I have a few suggestions here that might be able to do that, without causing imbalance to the game at any stage. I chose to only upgrade HP and armor, skills don't need upgrading or there will be no incentive to purchase the "big 3" (sky, inf and titan).The most balanced option in my opinion is option 3, but I suppose each is up for criticism regardless. I hope at least one of these get implimented to make late game a little more interesting. (Note: Capped healing may be needed for raider to prevent him from being OP).

Option 1: Health Battery

Quite simply an icon that enables you to buy HP/Armor the same way you can buy mana. Every purchase costs $1000 and boosts your tank's HP by 1000 and Armor by 1. Obviously for balance reasons your Tank may not have upgrade itself higher than the teams current armor upgrade count (So in other words if your team has 10 armor upgrades, your tank may not have anything higher than the equivilant of an Demon Tanks armor and HP)


Option 2: Super Hull (Requires Armor upgrade +10)

Costs: Upgraded Gold Hull + Blueprint ($1000)
Effect: +5000 HP +5 Armor
Requires: 10 Armor upgrades
Each upgrade costs $5000 and gives an additional +5000 HP with +5 Armor
Each upgrade requires an addional 3 armor upgrades
May upgrade this a maximum ammount of times according to the tier of your tank:
- Demolisher or below may upgrade this up to 4 times
- Goblin Tank or below may upgrade this up to 3 times
- Frost Tank or below may upgrade this up to 2 times
- Above Frost tank may never upgrade this item
- Purchasing a tank that is above the threshold tier limit automatically downgrades the item to fit (and you receive no refund)


Option 3: Frost, Sky, Infernal and Titan Packs (called Fuel)

Frost-Fuel: Gives your Tank the equivilant base hit points and Armor of a Frost Tank
Costs: $12000 - (Tank costs/2)
Requirements: Armor level 12

Sky-Fuel: Gives your Tank the equivilant base hit points and Armor of a Sky Fortress
Costs: $16000 - (Tank costs/2)
Requirements: Armor level 14

Infernal-Fuel: Gives your Tank the equivilant base hit points and Armor of a Infernal Tank
Costs: $18000 - (Tank costs/2)
Requirements: Armor level 16

Titan-Fuel: Gives your Tank the equivilant base hit points and Armor of a Titan Tank
Costs: $25000 - (Tank costs/2)
Requirements: Armor level 25

[progg]

health batter is good idea imo. it saves slot and makes game more fluent.

[eSVau]

IMHO this will lead to tier1 tanks switching directly to t4

[UnifiedDoom]

Don't we see enough helicopters and airshits stacking hp already?

Anyway Titan Wars exists due to the nature of the titan's ulti "keep on fighting," So unless you suggest changes to that spell, the nature of the endgame will not change. This is also why adding an additional 30k tank is meaningless gesture since the only thing that can beat invunerability is, invunerability. If Infernal Robot and Titan switched cost base hp/armor but not spells, I'm 100% the endgame would still be a "Titan War." This goes for every other tank that can somehow stack 30k hp as well.

Option 1, Hp batteries can't really be compared to Mana batteries since once you hit a "requirement" (having max mana equal to the manacost of all of your skills + items) buying additional mana is pointless, this never happens with hp. Also the ratio of cost to hp should be more than that of a hull imo to offset the fact that batteries don't cost an inventory slot. The current hulls have a ratio of 1.25 gold / 1 hp, I'd say a battery item like this should be at least 1.5 gold / 1 hp. Though once again you can have all the hp you like, it means nothing if the enemy cannot be killed.

Option 2, The "Super Hull" that I would like to see is a lot more simple than yours, simply a "Platinum Hull" that costs 10000 gold and gives 8000 hp (and 5000 gold upgrade that gives +4000 hp), along with it's relative repair pack that costs 5000 and heals 7500 hp.

Option 3, On paper I see absolutely no reason to buy any of these over the relative tank. What you are implying is that some tanks may have better skill sets than inf/fort/titan if only they had the same amount of hp. If such a change like this is implemented however, it will either be horribly overpowered, or horribly underpowered. Favoring tanks that have abilities that manipulate percentages or improve performance, rather than tanks that focus on dealing damage with spells. From what I can tell from your post you want a game where "All tanks are equal" (Communism ), but such a change like this will far from equalize the game. Imagine buying these on tanks w/o percentage based abilities like heavy, and demolisher, it would be a total failure.

All of your suggestions seem to also have the concept of "forced gold loss" to discourage switching to tier 4 tanks after buying these items. So at the end of the day Titans still come out on top. Because the switch is still forced due to the nature of titan's ulti, so statistically you would lose because of all the gold that went "poof" when you changed tank.

You started your post complaing about the nature of titan-wars, but all of the changes you're suggesting only change the nature of the infernal-robot phase of the game. Even then I think it's hard to say there's a cheaper tank that can contribute more to a teamfight than infernal with infernal's hp. Earth robot will be more prevelent yes, but it has a different role, but small things like "light tank repair, helicopter speed, scout magic res, goblin speed/res" pale in comparison to usefulness of stunning and severely damaging several enemy players at the same time.

[Teo_live]

Ok I deleted my former post it had horrible typos. Heh I used color to make my post easier to read. I can't quote entire paragraphs or this post will just be too long but I will address some of the concerns/criticisms here and try improve the suggestions if appropriate.

IMHO this will lead to tier1 tanks switching directly to t4

They could... but that would be quite a silly waste of money if they do that, since the suggestions don't even stack well with any T4 tanks (and you don't even get a refund ). (Perhaps we should allow half a refund to make it fair though?)

" Anyway Titan Wars exists due to the nature of the titan's ulti "keep on fighting," .... The switch is still forced due to the nature of titan's ulti, so statistically you would lose because of all the gold that went "poof" when you changed tank.

It is a big factor yes, but it is not the only factor (this skill really does suck in certain situations, so HP and armor alone is the true kicker). Remember we don't want to remove ALL incentives to buy T4 or tanks or make T4's redundant. T4 Tanks are part of this game as well, these suggestions are merely to give players more "options".

You can always choose NOT to buy these items for your play style if you prefer Titan... so this is a nonsense issue really.

Option 1 ... Also the ratio of cost to hp should be more than that of a hull imo to offset the fact that batteries don't cost an inventory slot. The current hulls have a ratio of 1.25 gold / 1 hp, I'd say a battery item like this should be at least 1.5 gold / 1 hp

I agree, more expensive for it's convenience

Perhaps 1500 Gold for 1000HP + 1 Armor will do (though this might be too underpowered... we will see what others have to say)

Option 2, The "Super Hull" that I would like to see is a lot more simple than yours, simply a "Platinum Hull" that costs 10000 gold and gives 8000 hp (and 5000 gold upgrade that gives +4000 hp), along with it's relative repair pack that costs 5000 and heals 7500 hp.

I Disagree, this just promotes Titan even further than other tanks. Sort of defeats the whole purpose of the suggestion

it will either be horribly overpowered, or horribly underpowered

Yes it is underpowered. I would rather stay on the side of caution for now as these suggestions can always be buffed later on if need be.

but all of the changes you're suggesting only change the nature of the infernal-robot phase of the game

??????????????? Some items/upgrades require 25 armor level? That is clearly not infernal-robot phase. Though these options can be used at anytime realistically from frost-robot and beyond

Don't we see enough helicopters and airshits stacking hp already? ... Imagine buying these on tanks w/o percentage based abilities like heavy, and demolisher, it would be a total failure .... but small things like "light tank repair, helicopter speed, scout magic res, goblin speed/res" pale in comparison to usefulness of stunning and severely damaging several enemy players at the same time

This is way too subjective, so it has no use in this thread. Yes some combinations will be poor but some will be quite good. As I say again, you always have the option NOT to buy these items if you prefer a Titan's capability so that isn't an issue.

Well there you have it. I hope others comment in this thread for or against it, but hopefully everyone will at least have ideas on "how to improve" the suggestions if they disagree. I also hope a mod or dev will look at this thread and comment on what they think is and is not plausible.

[ssl]

" Anyway Titan Wars exists due to the nature of the titan's ulti "keep on fighting," .... The switch is still forced due to the nature of titan's ulti, so statistically you would lose because of all the gold that went "poof" when you changed tank.

It is a big factor yes, but it is not the only factor (this skill really does suck in certain situations, so HP and armor alone is the true kicker). Remember we don't want to remove ALL incentives to buy T4 or tanks or make T4's redundant. T4 Tanks are part of this game as well, these suggestions are merely to give players more "options".
You can always choose NOT to buy these items for your play style if you prefer Titan... so this is a nonsense issue really.

No, UnifiedDoom is right about this. I did play a very long game a short time ago and all the players started to get titans. I refused to play it because I hate it but I was literally forced to do so because of its ulti. This has nothing to do with HP but only the imba ulti. Perhaps the best solution is to nerv it or remake completely!

[Exodus]

I appreciate the effort, that went into this suggestion. But in order to tackle this problem I already started another attempt to create a more fun endgame.

I'm going to remake the Titan. The Titan failed to do, what he was intended to do. He was supposed to be a game-ender. That's why his skills are rather overpowered. But he couldn't manage to end the game on his own, so eventually everyone will get a Titan.
What I'm trying to do now, is to create a different skillset, which will be more interesting to play as and against.

There will also be another late game tank, so I hope to see more endgame tank variety in the next version.

[UnifiedDoom]

I appreciate the effort, that went into this suggestion. But in order to tackle this problem I already started another attempt to create a more fun endgame.

I'm going to remake the Titan. The Titan failed to do, what he was intended to do. He was supposed to be a game-ender. That's why his skills are rather overpowered. But he couldn't manage to end the game on his own, so eventually everyone will get a Titan.
What I'm trying to do now, is to create a different skillset, which will be more interesting to play as and against.

There will also be another late game tank, so I hope to see more endgame tank variety in the next version.

Will these ideas be open to the public for discussion? I would really like to see a thread devoted to the developement of these new end-game tanks.

[Exodus]

I fear not. But a new beta should not be too far away (I try to get one within this month). The new tank I mentioned is nearly finished and he has been in that state for over half a year (he was delayed because of the BTT, since I didn't want to introduce a new tank just then). Right now I only need to make some last changes and he'll be ready.

The new tank, called Goliath, is designed as a durable 1vs1 fighter, which is also quite mobile, compared to the other late game tanks.
Also, a preview how the tank will look like ;)


For the Titan I plan to reduce the team control, in terms of enemy stun and ally protection. I'm also thinking about reducing the price of the Titan, to decrease the gap towards the other tanks. With this, the advantage of having a Titan will be less than now, which hopefully also leads to more variety.

That's about all I can say for now. (which probably was already too much, considering how much can still change, even now)

[UnifiedDoom]

A 1v1 tank huh, are you sure it's even possible to surpass sky fortress's ability to stun a single target for 6 seconds and dealing up to 12500 damage with spells alone?

[Teo_live]

Well this changes things somewhat! Goliath looks great can't wait to try it!

Reducing the OPness of titan's skills and reducing the price of Titans is definately a step in the right direction at making late game have more variety. I hope you go through with that plan Exodus.

On a side note, there have been many suggestions to upgrade a hull/powerpack and this would also help add abit more viability to differing late game designs. UnifiedDoom's "Platinum Hull" idea (or something similar) would actually work quite well here, provided it gives an armor bonus as well.

[eSVau]

Just in case you don't know, but armor does only apply to damage from creeps and towers.

[progg]

IMHO this will lead to tier1 tanks switching directly to t4

Easy solution - make it available from armor lvl 12-14

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sorry for double post but i there's limit of 10mins for editing (should be set to infinity if there's no reposts imo).
I'd love to see new end game flying tank:)

[RaptorXI]

I like the Titan how it is (as the tank who everyone has to buy in the end), but couldn't you give him a little speed boost after using a skill (preferabyl KoF or any other) spell? Sucks when you have the most expensive tank and can't fight Sky Fortress with Supercell and even have to buy nets... the other skills could do more dsmage too imo.

[progg]

Rapo is right about speed. Titan is the most expensive tank with 250 speed. Demolisher is faster...

[Desktop_General]

Adding a new end game tank is a great idea. I think it'd be a good idea to add several end game tanks so that the end game is just as varied and dynamic as the beginning.

[Teo_live]

I like the Titan how it is (as the tank who everyone has to buy in the end), but couldn't you give him a little speed boost after using a skill (preferabyl KoF or any other) spell? Sucks when you have the most expensive tank and can't fight Sky Fortress with Supercell and even have to buy nets... the other skills could do more dsmage too imo.

Oh yay lets make the game EVEN MORE biased towards Titan wars and remove the ONLY reason not to choose Titan...

The game needs more options for late game, not less.

Adding more late game tanks, adding an item to increase the HP of low level tanks after 14 armor level, and adding new late game weapons all will help make late game abit less boring.

[RaptorXI]

I expect the most expensive tank in the game to have more advantages than hp and armor.

[Teo_live]

I expect the most expensive tank in the game to have more advantages than hp and armor.

With that logic, might as well make Airship completely inferior to Heavy Tank, or Sky Fortress completely useless against Infernal.

Most expensive should have a slight edge in advantage yes, but the key word is slight. Regardless it is not much of an issue anymore as Titan (hopefully) will be getting nurfed to hell and will be almost on par with an Infernal soon. One step in the right direction to making late game a bit more tolerable...

[EarthR]

I expect the most expensive tank in the game to have more advantages than hp and armor.

With that logic, might as well make Airship completely inferior to Heavy Tank, or Sky Fortress completely useless against Infernal.

Most expensive should have a slight edge in advantage yes, but the key word is slight. Regardless it is not much of an issue anymore as Titan (hopefully) will be getting nurfed to hell and will be almost on par with an Infernal soon. One step in the right direction to making late game a bit more tolerable...

you miss the point teo. Titan costs 7k more that inf and 9 k more than sf which are the only tanks that have a chance to counter it somehow and that is in team fights only. So 7k-9k is a huge difference so the tank should have many advantages since titan is the only tank in his price category.