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I'm afraid you should have set it to default without making a poll. Most people would say NO if you asked them about removing hb from normal mode, now they will say no because they are happy with their demons and/or refer to something like "free choice".
Hb also made things a lot easier (and imba). But because it was imba, it goes to custom. If you want it old style, you can always pick custom as you do with hb.
The point is that normal mode should be as balanced and *normal* as it can get, with no winning strategies and builds. If you think having reqs for frostie and not for demon (which can fairly keep you in game until you get titan) is ok, go ahead and ask blizzard if they can remove tech requirements for tier3 units from game :roll: would be the same for me really.
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k-bones Wrote:I'm afraid you should have set it to default without making a poll. Most people would say NO if you asked them about removing hb from normal mode, now they will say no because they are happy with their demons and/or refer to something like "free choice".
Hb also made things a lot easier (and imba). But because it was imba, it goes to custom. If you want it old style, you can always pick custom as you do with hb.
The point is that normal mode should be as balanced and *normal* as it can get, with no winning strategies and builds. If you think having reqs for frostie and not for demon (which can fairly keep you in game until you get titan) is ok, go ahead and ask blizzard if they can remove tech requirements for tier3 units from game :roll: would be the same for me really.
/agree
I am so good that I don't even need to type -rc because I never die !
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k-bones Wrote:I'm afraid you should have set it to default without making a poll. Most people would say NO if you asked them about removing hb from normal mode, now they will say no because they are happy with their demons and/or refer to something like "free choice".
Hb also made things a lot easier (and imba). But because it was imba, it goes to custom. If you want it old style, you can always pick custom as you do with hb.
The point is that normal mode should be as balanced and *normal* as it can get, with no winning strategies and builds. If you think having reqs for frostie and not for demon (which can fairly keep you in game until you get titan) is ok, go ahead and ask blizzard if they can remove tech requirements for tier3 units from game :roll: would be the same for me really.
You're sure in what you're saying? There should be no winning strategies and builds? You do think that blizzard made wc3:tft with no winning strategies and builds? You really believe it's good to put everything which is allegedly imba to custom mode? You do think that the decrease of the strategy variaty, the change of the whole gameplay is a reasonable answer to a small mid-lategame scenario which some people dislike (and is definitly not imba in my opinion)?
Personally, I hope you don't believe in what you've said and recognize that this vote is not about some alleged imbaness in first place, it basically is the question on which gamemode the balance should be adjusted and I believe that a more open gameplay would be the better thing for the map development and the players.
btw: hb was _never_ the standard normal mode, it was an addition which could be activated if you liked it (which I didn't/don't).
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Prog Wrote:I don't think so, as the question above the poll clearly says: "Should the new requirement mode be set to the standard mode?".
you didnt understand what i said.
just because 50% or more voted to not get the new more requirement mode to the normal mode, you cant say the more requirement mode isnt the most popular one.
imagine a political election. what would a vote "do you want the socialist party to rule" tell? what if only 47% say yes?
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DerSatan Wrote:Prog Wrote:I don't think so, as the question above the poll clearly says: "Should the new requirement mode be set to the standard mode?".
just because 50% or more voted to not get the new more requirement mode to the normal mode, you cant say the more requirement mode isnt the most popular one.
The question is not which one is the more popular mode (which I think is clearly the current normal mode, as publics a mostly hosted as games without requirements for thunder+), it's about making the requirement mode the standard one and this seems currently to be less popular.
As to your analogy (which I think does not apply really well), it's more like: Do you want the current administration (in which the socialist play a (small) role) to continue work or do you want to change it into a one-party-socialist administration? If only 47% vote for changing, the current one should be the one continueing the work of course, regardless if the 53% don't like the socialists or think that the current administration is working quite good, becouse that's not what the vote has been asking for. Of course the administration would have to ask themselves how can we make the other 47% happier as well without changing the administration (btw the 47% would split up too, in ones who like the socialist and ones who think that the current administration lacks of something, which might be changed otherwise as well).
I hope I understood your point well enough to make this a reasonable response, if not please say so and take another attempt to show me how you meant it.
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Prog -> maybe I said it too much dramatically before  but my point is that reqs only for better tanks create a huge gap in some possible builds. You refer to open gameplay - I see it more like closed because of the "mid-late game scenario" you mentioned. For me open gameplay would be the possibility to get Goblin Tank, or some other tank that isn't worth upgrading to Demon, without fearing that you will have to face demons soon while waiting for armor upg and frost or SF.
And I never saw somebody lasting long enough to get a Frost Tank 2nd (before reqs came in), so I think the reqs that are now are just unfinished work because they simply didn't succeed.
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k-bones Wrote:Prog -> maybe I said it too much dramatically before but my point is that reqs only for better tanks create a huge gap in some possible builds. You refer to open gameplay - I see it more like closed because of the "mid-late game scenario" you mentioned. For me open gameplay would be the possibility to get Goblin Tank, or some other tank that isn't worth upgrading to Demon, without fearing that you will have to face demons soon while waiting for armor upg and frost or SF.
And I never saw somebody lasting long enough to get a Frost Tank 2nd (before reqs came in), so I think the reqs that are now are just unfinished work because they simply didn't succeed.
Well, I partially agree on that. You're right by saying that it's not possible to play with goblin tank, or other tank which isn't worth upgrading to demon (btw, in the last couple of games sky turns out to be as much played as demon, becouse you can play scout->sky and there are sky tank strats which didn't "exist" before 8.52), but i think there are better ways to make those tanks worth playing than restricting every tank thunder+. For example there is the change on goblin tank i suggested in another thread some days ago and I quite often said that I'd like to have the armor requirements from frost removed to create another no-requirement late game tank (so that the scenario without upgrades would contain sky tank, (earth), demon, frost).
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I played a couple of games last night where the host implemented armor requirements for Thunder and above and it really changed the builds people had going. For once there wasn't a 20 minute Demon rolling around taking CP's. People had hulls and second or third weapons and it was a lot more fun to play. I even decided to spring for an upgrade to get a Goblin Tank earlier and it was certainly worth the extra cash for the advantage.
I really would like to see these tank req's made standard because it allows for more builds and different strategies. I'm so tired of long ranged knobs in the middle rushing demons.
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Hmm no no no no requirments for thunder tank and above i think you should just have it as a custom mode to suit the host
Cat power < needs to be implemented into bt 
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there will be all demons around again when it is 40 min. Only difference is : everybody will take it all together. Just like it is with Infernals.
Only monotonize the game...
Why changing dynamics of game for 1 tank? Just change that tank.
If something must be standardized, it must be No Trader. My last league game was ruined by a trader...
Or if you think upper class tanks are too strong to use, then make an incremental cost sytem for tanks. So cheaper tanks will be more attractive.
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i remember the time without any requirements.
demon tank was hardly ever seen, because it was considered too weak. in the meanwhile, demon tank has been nerfed, and sky tank has been slightly buffed.
why should everyone take the demon tank after 40 minutes? doesnt make sense in my opinion.
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No. Demon tank has been buffed a lot before it was nerfed.
Had 2 sec stun and same damage but 2000 range in 7.58, it was 3 sec stun in a few versions ago. now 2.5, so it is buffed.
Hellfire had 1200 + 300/lvl in 7.58, now 1400 + 350/lvl. It is buffed too.
And infernal was 15k without requirements. Who would give 10k for demon while Infernal is 15k. And 2% lvl hp used to make their HP difference to 7k in lvl20.
Infernal was much attractive.
Ah and low range weapons used to have a damage penalty i think. So low range tactic was not powerful as now.
Thats why Demon was not popular.
Only thing to make its popularity will be some other tactics, going directly to infernal or sky fortress from a mid tank. But I dont think mid tanks will survive while others buy Demon.
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tank requirements came with 8.36, so i dont care what happened to the demon tank in 7.xx when talking about this topic.
in 8.36 nobody got the demon tank (despite your buffs happened before), and in 8.36 (after some games testing) everyone bought the demon tank. no connection? lol.
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That just came from the fact that before the requirements came Inf was really imbalanced, so everyone just tried to get as fast as possible to the infernal (quite many players even sold all their items to get the inf). In 8.36 there was those changes as well:
"Increased Manacosts of Chaos Teleport and Infernal Fire Rain (Infernal Robot)
Infernal Fire Rain now stops when the Infernal is stunned "
There was no space for the demon tank before those changes.
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so you seriously think that in a game with more requirements chosen 10 demon tanks will be bought at 40:00 minutes, like horselance said? and all that because the mana cost of the infernal's skills was increased and a skill was nerfed?
i think you just want to prevent the map from gettin changing a single bit(/byte).
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Noone can say how the game would look like, but I rather think that each team would do 3-5 armor upgrades to get the stronger tanks earlier.
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Prog Wrote:Noone can say how the game would look like, but I rather think that each team would do 3-5 armor upgrades to get the stronger tanks earlier. I agree that would most likely be the case if requirements would be applied for all tanks above shredder...
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Then the best thing would be lower all reqs by 1 or even 2. Demon Tank at 30/35 minutes, Inf at 1:10/15.
All tanks should be available at the time when they don't grant you victory over other tanks with more weapons just by their own.
Btw, It looks a bit unfair for me - the hp relation is 18/10=72/40 and availability time relation with current reqs is 90/40
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Quote:That just came from the fact that before the requirements came Inf was really imbalanced, so everyone just tried to get as fast as possible to the infernal
Fact is that, it is still race for infernal. Still we try to buy an infernal ASAP.
Whatever. This will limit all tanks. And will make a time-stair for game. Do you want to make variety of gameplays or standardize gameplay?
If some tanks are too strong for their price, then make them more expensive or make them nerfed. (this is the xx.th time I repeat this)
Trolololo
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horselance Wrote:Do you want to make variety of gameplays or standardize gameplay?
variety of gameplay. thats why im supporting more troop requirements.
everyone rushes to demon tank is the standardized game model in my opinion, while more usage of middle class tanks, doing troop upgrades or risky saving is the variety one.
horselance Wrote:If some tanks are too strong for their price, then make them more expensive or make them nerfed. (this is the xx.th time I repeat this)
general hint: try giving arguments instead of just repeating something xx times. it might give you the edge.
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