Scout: balancing

[JpOO]

5 secs too long I think. 3 will be OK.

[Carcharoth2]

Pls no building time for tower

[JpOO]

To let you pwn with that imba scout at all games? No way, mister! No way! (btw I dont like that idea too)

[Carcharoth2]

I play always random^^
Approx. every 4th game with scout and i doesn´t think he is that imba

i dont like building time because you will loose some strategie possiblities, no fast blocking tower.
The other nerfs would be enough, it will make him enough fragile i think

[Exodus]

Giving the Tower a building time (where you won't have to stand next to the tower for the whole time) won't decrease its farming ability, if you build it soon enough (and even if you don't, 3 or 5 seconds aren't that much). You just can't use it as a fast build damage blocker, because the Tower wasn't exactly designed for that. You just have to be more careful when to build a Tower.
It's just this damage blocking which makes the Tower this strong for the Scout, so I think it's necessary to do this.

[Tribulation]

I agree, the tower cannot serve as a fast built damage blocker, getting close to a long range Scout with a short range weapon would lose too much efficiency as long as the Scout can use the tower in that way.

[Gammagulp]

I think that change would make the scout equal to heli or light tank starting strategy.
I like it, because it needs that nerf, and plant tower to defend himself is ended by this change - 3,4or 5 seconds building time - everything is ok, or building of the same Hp ammount so building time depends on the max Hp of the tower.

I like it , if the scout is too weak then we can see after testing it in a new version, or are you afraid the scout could be to weak just for one version . Balancing is a long progress i Suppose - even in WC3 there are balancing changes some weeks ago - and how long is WC3 available as a game ? :mrgreen:

But just one thing to the cooldown -pls remember if the tower needs 5 seconds to build the duration for having 2 complete towers already is reduced by 5 seconds

[kittyonmyfoot]

I think that building time would improve the fast damage blocking ability of the towers not decrease it. I see it all the time with tink towers. It's usually easier to let it complete then move forward with the next creep wave to damage it then wait for the next one to kill it. If it's building you have to basically 1-2 shot it or else it will heal when u get pushed back with the next creep wave. I say keep it instant and give it a phase shift so it will still have lasting power vs. creeps but will dramatically decrease the damage blocking.

[Gammagulp]

Isnt it possible to let the tower build up with the damage taken ?

That means if you deal 200 damage during the build of a 500Hp tower it is constructed with 200 damage.
- Only idea ^^

[italyrools]

Although the tower is only a slight problem, it isn't very large. I just played two straight games with mostly extremely good people, and 8 out of 10 of them started with a scout tank both times, most often with bombards. The tower doesnt make a difference in this case, just a convenient way to not get pounded by troops.

I think the unbalanced part is the selection of long range weaponry. All of short-medium range weaps are balanced, because there are so many of them (ie. some with short range, fast attack and lots of damage, some with short range, tons of damage and slow attack, etc.) but there is only one long range weapon per stage of the game: bombards at beginning, rocket hail in the middle, and the other cannon that costs 12k (forgot the name :oops: ). If more long range weapons were added per stage to balance out the strategies, then scout tanks wouldn't be so ridiculed, lame or easy to use.

[Exodus]

Isnt it possible to let the tower build up with the damage taken ?

That means if you deal 200 damage during the build of a 500Hp tower it is constructed with 200 damage.
- Only idea ^^

Yes, it is possible. Actually it's even easier as the way the Tinker Towers work.

Although the tower is only a slight problem, it isn't very large. I just played two straight games with mostly extremely good people, and 8 out of 10 of them started with a scout tank both times, most often with bombards. The tower doesnt make a difference in this case, just a convenient way to not get pounded by troops.

Of course its no problem, when nobody has a weapon which can attack buildings. But its not balanced when everyone has to take the same tank, weapons and skills just because he doesn't want to fall behind.

[horselance]

It needs to change/nerf healing rate and ressistance. Healing to 5 per lvl and ressistance to 2% per lvl.

[Carcharoth2]

Good idea.
You cant stay always in the battel and have to go back to CP to heal.
=> Less creeping

But the resistance is okay as it is i think,makes only some extra HP, and the Hp is allready reduced by 50 next version.

[Exodus]

I think we shouldn't overdo it, lets just see how it works out after these changes.

[TKF]

Maybe make towers immune to spells to prevent it to act as a scout shield spell. It's no threat to players, only creeps.

[italyrools]

Of course its no problem, when nobody has a weapon which can attack buildings. But its not balanced when everyone has to take the same tank, weapons and skills just because he doesn't want to fall behind.

Yes, that is a problem which I think needs to be solved. I found the situation is even worse in High Bounty. In HB games pretty much everyone gets long range, since it is easy to kill people, while also being able to avoid being killed (except by other long rangers).

Just a thought, maybe after raising the price of the scout to 1k, change the towers to hit only heros? It would be easy to balance and alot of strategies could be formed around that.

[IlPalazzo]

The main problem I see with the Scout is with the HP of its Tower ability.

Right now, the early-game tower can soak up hundreds of points of damage, and later it can block up to several thousands. At level 1, the Scout's Tower can soak up 500 HP, meaning a Light Tank (Level 1) with 1010HP has to push through 1207 HP, not merely the Scout's original 707 HP (Nevermind the creeps that also get in the way of doing that). By level 4, the Scout's Tower becomes almost like a Iron Hull- soaking up 1000HP (1100HP after 5 minutes). if the Scout bought a hull already, the enemy will be looking at fighting a 2700-2800HP tank. Towards the end of a decent 50 minute game, a Level 5 Tower soaks up +5000HP, which is more than the Sky Fortress's Level 5 4000HP Boost. It's one of the few early-game tank ability that scales well in the mid/late-game.

So how does one go around this block of HP? - By getting a long ranged weapon that doesn't hit the tower and goes straight for Scout himself... Energy Torpedos and Bombarding Rockets... What is the best tank to use sniper weapons? The Scout...



I think the other ideas will get the job done just as well, but I'll just throw an alternative idea out there to see what people think.

Set the tower at 250 HP/Level, with physical damage reduced by 50%.
Leave the tower at 500 HP/Level, but take 100% extra damage from magic attacks.

This will allow it to remain as a good farming ability as it was intended, but a less viable HP shield.

This would mean a Level 1 (1010HP) Light Tank with 2 Basic Magics will only have to take down around 957 HP from a Level 1 Scout and his tower, rather than 1207 HP that he has now with the current mechanics.

[Turin]

The thing for me that stands out the most about a scout is its ability to remain at the front line due to its defense systems. Personally, i would like to see the defense system on the scout switched with the light tanks repair. This gives the light tank an ability to replace the repair, which is very rarely used, (Seeing as how light tank is rarely used due to scout being too strong) and it balances the scout very well.

None of his other abilities bother me that much. i could QQ about his passive cannon having 1300 range when i think it should be at 1000 so you could aim it better if you go with a double basic magic build.

[Gammagulp]

I dont think the first level of the tower is difficult to destroy - that means the level 1 Tower with 500 Hp is for a startweapon + tankcannon combination fast done - if it will be build up in 3 till 5 seconds maybe earlier.

The most problem at the moment are the future levels with 1100 lvl 2 ..... 2200 lvl 4 (maybe due to creep updates)
Maybe if the future levels dont get that much HP increase. (Maybe lvl 2 750, lvl3 900, lvl 4 1050, lvl 5 1200)
The tower is a strong skill, but a lvl 1 tower with 250 HP - can be kille by one hit of a strong weapon (maybe tornado + tankcanon); the other abilities of the starting Tanks would be much better. lvl 1 rocket deals 180 damage + 1 second stun.

But the idea to let player weapons deal extra damage is also cool .

[IlPalazzo]

I dont think the first level of the tower is difficult to destroy - that means the level 1 Tower with 500 Hp is for a startweapon + tankcannon combination fast done - if it will be build up in 3 till 5 seconds maybe earlier.

The most problem at the moment are the future levels with 1100 lvl 2 ..... 2200 lvl 4 (maybe due to creep updates)
Maybe if the future levels dont get that much HP increase. (Maybe lvl 2 750, lvl3 900, lvl 4 1050, lvl 5 1200)
The tower is a strong skill, but a lvl 1 tower with 250 HP - can be kille by one hit of a strong weapon (maybe tornado + tankcanon); the other abilities of the starting Tanks would be much better. lvl 1 rocket deals 180 damage + 1 second stun.

But the idea to let player weapons deal extra damage is also cool .

At Level 1, a Tornado Summoner can take down:
a 500 gold Scout in 2 Hits
- his tower in 2 Hits (1 with another weapon hitting it)
- 2 towers in 4 Hits (2 with another weapon hitting it)
Ideally, you can take down a Scout in 2 Hits, but if he's sitting on a cliff behind two towers you might have to spend your time shooting out up to 6 shots from your Tornado Summoner, by that time another creep wave is about cover him.
...Now compare this to...
an 800 gold Light Tank in 3 Hits
a 1,000 gold Helicopter in 3 Hits (2 with another weapon hitting it).
a 1,400 gold Anti-Grav in 4 Hits

At Level 1, a Basic Cannon can take down:
a 500 gold scout in 3 Hits
- hit tower in 2 Hits
- 2 towers in 4 Hits
Again, ideally, you can have the Scout out of the way in 3 Hits, but if he's sitting around with two towers by him you'll have to shoot out 7 shots from a Basic Cannon.
...Now compare this to...
an 800 gold Light Tank in 4 Hits
a 1,000 gold Helicopter in 3 Hits
a 1,400 gold Helicopter in 5 Hits

Perhaps 250HP might be too much of a nerf, but I still think the tower in its current state forces players to take up long-ranged weapons and the Scout early game. With 3 Scouts dropping 2 towers each and crowding the middle, players with anything less than Bombarding Rockets or Energy Torpedos will have to push through 3,000HP in towers in addition to the creeps and the Scouts themselves in order to take anything down. At level 4, this block of creep-killing HP doubles to 6,000HP cluttering the middle... 6,600HP after the first creep upgrades. For players with a Basic Cannon, Fireball Cannon, x2 Basic Magic, Fan of Knives, or Tornado Summoner, this is a lot of junk to cut through to get to the actual tank. So much that the extra DPS does not compensate for the fact that players have to run up and hit through extra units that long ranged weapons do not have to deal with.

I wouldn't doubt Scouts will need a tune up in other areas after a nerf like this- but like I said, I believe this is the reason most players, mid-lane players especially, are forced to take up long-ranged weapons to survive and remain viable.