How to balance early leaver.

[toyboatt]

Early leavers are imbalanced.. the team with 4v5 generally gets a gold and exp boost early, when it matters most, and in the league games I play they win 80% of the time. That 20% that they lose is only if the early leaver was their best player.

But, later game it is a disadvantage to be 4v5. Let us look at one of the major causes of this: force spawned units.

Early game mid, the team with only 2 players gets the same amount of spawn as the team with 3 players, so they get more gold each, and they level up faster. This is devastating when both mid players can get level 10 tanks with double nukes before a single opponent reaches 10.

Late game, the spawned units get very strong, and it actually matters when a push rolls in with enemy players and many creeps.

The solution is to change the spawn when a player drops. If Light Force loses a player, than reduce the spawn that comes from Dark Force base.. (in mid only). It takes away the ridiculous exp/gold advantage early, and also reduces the strong creep pushes later. Yes? Why not?

[UnifiedDoom]

Early leavers are imbalanced.. the team with 4v5 generally gets a gold and exp boost early, when it matters most, and in the league games I play they win 80% of the time. That 20% that they lose is only if the early leaver was their best player.

This is false, and the only way it would be true is if the team of 5 simply feeds a lot due to the fact that there are only 4 players on the opposing team.

But, later game it is a disadvantage to be 4v5. Let us look at one of the major causes of this: force spawned units.

There are equal creeps going to both sides. Just because one side is divided among 4 and one side among 5 doesn't mean that one is getting more gold than the other.

Early game mid, the team with only 2 players gets the same amount of spawn as the team with 3 players, so they get more gold each, and they level up faster. This is devastating when both mid players can get level 10 tanks with double nukes before a single opponent reaches 10.

I've explained this before on this forum, but I'll explain it again anyway. Since the change you are suggesting applies to ALL GAMES we can assume that the skill levels of the two teams are relatively equal for the purpose for example. So lets look at the starting gold in the middle, Leaver Team: 7500 (3750x2) vs. Normal Team: 9000 (3000x3). Once again assuming the skill levels are equal 2 people with 7500 starting gold should NEVER be able to push back a team of 3 with 9000 starting gold. That being said we can assume the team of 3 is pushing the team of 2 back to their middle cp and force towers. Now when this happens a great deal of the creep is killed not by the two players, but rather by the force and those kills are "wasted money." This means that in total the team of 3 starts with more gold and farms more gold. The team of 2 may gain more gold/exp per individual, however they are still gaining less gold/exp than the team of 3. You claimed an imbalance when the team of 2 get level 10 tanks first. However when you pair 3 level 10 tanks against 2 level 11-12 tanks then the 3 will always win.

Late game, the spawned units get very strong, and it actually matters when a push rolls in with enemy players and many creeps.

Wrong Wrong Wrong. So many tanks have aoe nuke/ultimate spells pushing with large groups of creeps in entirely meaningless.

The solution is to change the spawn when a player drops. If Light Force loses a player, than reduce the spawn that comes from Dark Force base.. (in mid only). It takes away the ridiculous exp/gold advantage early, and also reduces the strong creep pushes later. Yes? Why not?

No, reducing the spawn on either side due to players leaving is a bad idea. You are taking an outcome that is based largely on the skill levels of the individual players and blaming it on something that is constant assuming the skill levels of players are equal, the farming of creeps. You also didn't realise that if a player commonly leaves (whether it be at the start of the game or whenever), he will have a lower ELO due to losing points for when his team loses and gaining nothing for when his team wins. These low ELO players will then be put on teams with the better players in the lobby (due to the league bot's balancing) and continue to drop/leave. This means that the team with the better players is often the team with the low ELO leaver (because the bot factored in the leaver's low ELO and placed him on a team with good players). This means that when the low ELO leaver does leave/drop as usual his team will have players with the higher average skill level than that of the opposing team which naturally means they would win more often. The reason that teams of 4 with early leavers tend to win is because they are MORE SKILLED than the team of 5. The frequency of the overpoweredness of the team of 4 is simply because of the ranked bot's "balancing."

[toyboatt]

You claimed an imbalance when the team of 2 get level 10 tanks first. However when you pair 3 level 10 tanks against 2 level 11-12 tanks then the 3 will always win.

Thank you for your thorough reply, most of which I agree with.

The main problem, which you gloss over, is the window of time in which the 2 mid players have level 10 tanks and tank upgrades, and the opponents do not. Not only is the group of 3 usually not level 10, but they also have less money and cash per person. In the time that it takes them to catch up to level 10, they can easily feed and lose a CP.

2nd, it is not accurate to compare team gold, it matters so much what the gold per player is. The team of 5, which has overall less exp and less gold per tank, requires better team play to compensate. For example they require at least 3 people to defend a CP against 2 opponents that push. This puts teamplay demand on the worst players on the team, which usually doesn't work out.

I understand your arguments about the math of gold distribution, however there is more to it than that. You should have enough games under your belt to have personally experienced it. Are you really telling me, math aside, that you don't feel like you have an advantage when someone on your team drops in the first couple minutes? You really don't get angry when an opponent drops early? Even though your logic is good, in reality the team of 4 wins most of the time if their leaver is early. Why is that? Instead of telling us how gold doesn't matter, please explain to me why the early leaver team usually wins. Then suggest a fix.

[UnifiedDoom]

Thank you for your thorough reply, most of which I agree with.

You're very welcome

The main problem, which you gloss over, is the window of time in which the 2 mid players have level 10 tanks and tank upgrades, and the opponents do not. Not only is the group of 3 usually not level 10, but they also have less money and cash per person. In the time that it takes them to catch up to level 10, they can easily feed and lose a CP.

Now if the team of three were smart they would save for bigger tanks early on since skills>weapons in teamfights in 3v2 situations for the team with more players. Of course a level 10 heavy could easily one shot combo a bunch of level 7-9 tier one tanks. It would be much harder though if they were level 7-9 tier 2 tanks even if they didn't have any ultimates.

2nd, it is not accurate to compare team gold, it matters so much what the gold per player is. The team of 5, which has overall less exp and less gold per tank, requires better team play to compensate. For example they require at least 3 people to defend a CP against 2 opponents that push. This puts teamplay demand on the worst players on the team, which usually doesn't work out.

I don't see why it's inaccurate to compare team gold since the teams are fighting on a 5v4 basis. If the team of 5 raids a cp and the 4 players move to defend it you are pitting the total gold of each team, not individual gold of each player, against each other. What difference does it make that the team of 4 can win (usually) on a 1v1 basis if the gold level stands even on a 5v4 basis (actually due to default income it stands against the team of 4).

It is true the team of 5 must be more teamwork oriented; however, because each member of the team of 4 as a player must play better as an individual to compensate (If you say feed in a lane you have much less leeway since the rest of your team cannot offer support without crippling another lane). One bad player on the team of 4 would certainly be much more devastating than one bad player on the team of 5 (Both would be devasting to there respective teams of course).

I understand your arguments about the math of gold distribution, however there is more to it than that. You should have enough games under your belt to have personally experienced it. Are you really telling me, math aside, that you don't feel like you have an advantage when someone on your team drops in the first couple minutes? You really don't get angry when an opponent drops early? Even though your logic is good, in reality the team of 4 wins most of the time if their leaver is early. Why is that? Instead of telling us how gold doesn't matter, please explain to me why the early leaver team usually wins. Then suggest a fix.

You are correct I used to feel that way, but now I no longer do. It was the addition of the assist system that buffed the team without the leaver that changed my mind probalbly. I've also lost and many games in titan wars simply because my team had one less player than the opposing team even though we blew up all of their factories. (I've won games like that too with all facs dead, but having the extra player we eventually won). I actually thoroughly explained (in my opinion) why the team with the leaver usually wins in my previous post. (Though I myself don't see the team with the leaver "usually winning" when I actually play. I just put logic behind what might cause them to do so.)

As for fixes, well I don't really have one. As of now I actually feel that if the skill levels are even (currently they usually aren't due to the league bots balancing) the team of 4 is at a disadvantage. This is because the assist system will give the team of 5 more assist gold in teamfights when they score a kill vs. when the team of 4 scores a kill simply due to the presense of more players. Probalbly a boost in assist gold for the team of 4 to compensate for this would be a solution.

[gozo1985]

start leravers always depend on 2 things:

was the player good, mid or bad
hows the teams reacting

also theres a difference between a leaver who bought weapons and then leave or instant leave.

My experience for this is:

instant leave = close to balanced with the leaver gold
semi instant leavers = (bought weapon and then leave) increases the advantage of the leaver team... (becouse ppl can buy cheap weapons early - with an additional leaver gold).

also a factor is that the leaver team has an advantage at lanes but able to get overrun in middle fast - specially when enemy long range and good in creeping