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general imbalance? #1
#1
i discovered 2 general things that i wanted to discuss. its not about this tank or strategy is imba, but about general gameplay.


a hint in BT says: creeps are worth killing, too. maybe it is forgotten, because -notips is standardly used by every expierenced player, but, this is defenitely right, up to minute xx. then i get 500, 600, 800 gold for killing a tank, and creeps arent really worth killing too anymore. this is also the reason why frost magic is totally useless; once you can affort it, it will not strenghten you much.


tank's bounty increases with game duration, but creep's wont.


my suggestion: every x troop upgrade increases all (force-) summoned creep's bounty by 1. i know thats some work, but much of this is copy and paste (?).

comments please
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#2
One possible solution is when the creeps is upgraded, its bounty get increased by 10%


Creep bounty increment solution:

If the creeps should have increased bounty, I think perhaps it's intial bounty could be reduced to 10 for marines and 20 for others.

So if weapons and armor level is 4, a force marine gives
Code:
10 * (((Attack level + Defense level )*0.1) + 1)
10 * ((4 + 4 * 0.1) + 1) =
10 * ((8 * 0.1) + 1) =
10 * 1.8 = 18 gold bounty.


And this is the bounty just after 20 minutes ^^

Twice as much if it was a commander, artillery or zeppelin


But I don't know if this idea is so good. I will hear what others says... :roll: Well one disadvantage is that upgrading your tech level will increase the enemies income from your creeps...

...but one solution to that could be that the upgrades from players could ignore the change of bounty....



Other views and opinions...?
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#3
I agree with you, creeps only weapons are quite useless from a certain minute on, except the enemys do upgrades & factories, when creeps only weapons are the perfect counter, but i think increasing the bounty of creeps might change the gameplay dramaticly. Not in that way, that people will buy frost magic, but in terms of accumulating gold. Tanks will get stronger quite fast and creeps would be really weak soon, if the bounty of creeps increases a lot. If balanced correctly it might work, but i don't think we need to change the gameplay (i really like it how it is) and risk a long act of balancing.
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#4
In general i must admit DerSatan has a really good point. Only question is, how would it be 'fixed' ? I think that giving extra bounty from creeps might be a good idea if you do it in relation to the growth in strenght that tanks get (suppose a tank is worth 150 at start and after 20mins is worth 600, then his bounty has increased with 300%, so the creeps bounty should be increased after 20mins with 300% too). But i dont know if this would make the games faster or longer and if that is a good idea. So i am still a bit neutral on this thing, but it sure is something to think about imo.
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#5
my opinion is, that there are 2 Problems with Bounty increase of creeps:

1. The money you get will explode and the kill Gold for your Tank also, cause u get more kill Gold from Creeps
this leads to the Point, that u may buy an infernal after 40 min easily,
cause everyone give much Tank- killgold, and the creeps also do :mrgreen:

2. If you don´t let the Playerupdates (e.g. Team1) increase Bounty of creeps, what will happen if the force got 30 / 30 Update ???
If team 2 doesnt update, but in a long game reach LvL 30/ 30 Team 1 get more Creepgold than Team two (cause Team 1 did Updates) :wink:


So I agree, that Tank- Killgold explodes somehow too much, since some Versions, but to increase with updates would be maybe to extreme.

I like the idea of lowering start Creepgold, and increase Money of creepkills with time. Maybe +1 every 10 min. So Updates are made after every 5 min, but independent from Playerupdates Creepgold would increase. Idea

Opinions to that ? Smile
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#6
Gammagulp Wrote:I like the idea of lowering start Creepgold, and increase Money of creepkills with time. Maybe +1 every 10 min. So Updates are made after every 5 min, but independent from Playerupdates Creepgold would increase. Idea

At the moment, i think that would only decrease the value of low-budget anti creep weapons, instead of increase value of high-budget anti creep weapons. So it would attain the reverse effect.
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#7
TKF Wrote::roll: Well one disadvantage is that upgrading your tech level will increase the enemies income from your creeps...

...but one solution to that could be that the upgrades from players could ignore the change of bounty....
Upgrades done by player purchasing upgraded shouldn't increase the creep bounty.
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#8
possible solution:

every creep's bounty is raised by 2 (simple marine's by 1) every 10 minutes, independant from upgrades.

this will need a time maximum, for example 60 or 90 minutes.


ofc balancing may change values
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#9
I also like the idea of Satan, but this wont get the point, that killing a player, who even got more creepgold, would give 400/ 500+ Killgold after maybe 25-30 min.

Maybe trying the other idea and reducing the Tank kill value.

maybe 10% less Tank kill gold all 10 min -->
so:
0.9x after 10 min
0.81x 20 min
0.74x 30 min
0.68 40 min
0.62 50min
0.56 1h
0.51 1h10min

and so on...
remember, that the value of tanks increase, cause of more Items and better Tanks, so if a Tank give 1000 Gold after 1 hour - 560 Gold would be now.

But i never would say to cancel the old Formula of the map creator´s, cause its their idea. Just a Factor infront maybe to match the actual uselessness of creep weapons. (except at the start maybe)
Random Player
- noob, nobody, medium, pro - we will see what happens ^^
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#10
Noooo pls do not lower the bounty from anything. That would only extend the gametime even more, because you need quite some money to kill and destroy the enemy (except if they are really bad ofcourse). I mean, there are weapons of 10-30 k in the game, but you rarely see them because nobody is able to get that amount of money before 1 team has won in normal games, only in rush/urush games.

Thats why i vote for increasing the bounty somewhere ( i do not have any suggestions of my own yet). That way, more weapons and items can be used to and i guess the average game length might drop a little bit too, so that wouldnt only correct this 'imbalance', but would also have other advantages.
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#11
There was a proposition in another topic to change creeps composition after some game time. This is indeed a great idea in my opinion and I also appreciate an idea increasing creeps' bounty in time.

Those two major updates should be made at the same time and this is a starting point of new balance.

Thank you.
And Thou shalt trust... The Seer.
Що, блядь, навчився читати українською?
Гнойный буйволизм, товарищи, - это ГБ!
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#12
I admit i have not read the whole posts.

Quote:I like the idea of lowering start Creepgold, and increase Money of creepkills with time. Maybe +1 every 10 min. So Updates are made after every 5 min, but independent from Playerupdates Creepgold would increase.Idea

if this is changed plz dont forget the gold, a team get if they could destroy a factory of the other team - or there will be some real imbalances.

If you want anticreep weapons to be more usefull, than i have two other advises. Make more upgrates (this i wanted in another theme) or rebalance the weapon formular for anticreep weapons i dont think that you calculated them right.

I know its for all weapons the same, but maybe the costs are too big for the small reward you get with them.
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#13
I really saw anything bought in the game till now but never seen anyone buying a Frost Magic. It is useless. You can wait 1k more gold to buy laser and then upgrade it to get something really usefull. It kills creeps too. Why should i give 6k for a creepkiller wepon? This is not about its damage per second. it really dont matter if it cause as much damage as Frost Laser to creeps, i wouldnt buy it if it was... I wouldnt buy a creepkiller that would cost more than 3k gold. That is about what i tell down here.
And that tip must be changed to "Creeps are worth killing too. (at start up)" They surely must be worth killing. Because when a player gets strong and begin to kill you, you then have really little chance to do anything because your only way to get money becomes heroes. And if you cant do that, game becomes over. This is really annoying when you try to sum up gold for a tank or item.
Creeps must always be alternative money source. "Creep upgrade level / bounty" is good idea. And this must "include" player upgrades. I dont think most of people worry about upgrading creeps... But if they do, enemy is killing a stronger creep, so must get more money. This is just like player bounties. when u kill a strong enemy u get more gold.
This can be like 10% increase for every upgrade. which means 600% more bounty for a 30/30 creep. 72 gold for marines and 144 for others, where heroes probably give 1000-2500+ gold until that time.
Trolololo
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#14
hero bounty does rarely cross 1000-1500 gold, it's very unlikely to go so high in most games. The bounty system is more balanced than the old one. With exception of super long games, I've never seen a hero bounty be over 2000 after the bounty formula was changed.


I suggested that the bounty wouldn't be changed by player upgrades, cuz then you feed the enemy faster by upgrading. Then no one will upgrade cuz they know they boost the value of the creeps as well.
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#15
I dont think it rarely cross 1000+ and i see games 2000+ bounties. And yes, it is a long game we talk about. i said 30/30 creep; which means, 2:30 gametime if players dont upgrade them. And if your team upgrade creeps and enemy team does not, then when creeps get to 30/30, your creeps will give less bounty, which will break balance after that time. So it must be independent from upgrades.

Quote: DerSatan wrote:

possible solution:

every creep's bounty is raised by 2 (simple marine's by 1) every 10 minutes, independant from upgrades.

this will need a time maximum, for example 60 or 90 minutes.

Not a bad idea but it wont change anything because 12 bounty marine will give 18 bounty in 60th minute, which i dont see a difference 12 or 18 in 60th minute.

Maybe +1.5 gold per 5 minute for marines and +3 for others. And no time limit !!!

At startup commander = 24 gold where players bounty is 170.
"7 commander = 1 player bounty."

Now in 60th minute: a marine gives 30 and others 60. Where player bounties are at an average of 500-600 at that time.
"10 commander = 1 player bounty."

Not bad i think...
Trolololo
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