[8.56] Troop Command

[griffin1987]

Hy there,

What i still find annoying about this version is the unbalanced nature of the troop command. I've been playing bt for more than a year now (about 10-20 times a week), almost always 4k games at the beginning and later on 3k, I think the more advanced player like 3k games more, because they all suck at other modes (never found someone to beat me on a normal 4k, rush or urush game - btw: my last urush game lasted 6 minutes till the other team lost). I also started playing league a while ago, but everytime i won it wouldn't accept my code, but everytime i lost someone uploaded it.
Back on topic: I think troop command is way too strong for the beginning and way too weak for the later game. I just have to start with a scout and a troop command and i can win against all other tactics - even bombarding rockets are no problem normally. If you tryy to play a game against the warrior clan, you canb see what i mean: 3 of them start out with a scout and a troop command, and they literally creep you down.

Maybe i just missed something, but i already tried bombarding rockets, 2 basic magic + scout, tank + upgrades, heli + upgrades, tank + fan of knives, heli + plasma gun and many more - but, as i said - maybe i just missed something...

Btw. i also agree on the dark force being easier to play, but i like it that way, as 95% of the players out there are noobs - the most noobish players are always those shouting "I'm pro, you will never win"

I'd really like to hear your opinion on this topic...

[Exodus]

The announcement thread is not meant for discussing changes. So I made a new topic out of your post.

[Althend]

Hy there,

What i still find annoying about this version is the unbalanced nature of the troop command. I've been playing bt for more than a year now (about 10-20 times a week), almost always 4k games at the beginning and later on 3k, I think the more advanced player like 3k games more, because they all suck at other modes (never found someone to beat me on a normal 4k, rush or urush game - btw: my last urush game lasted 6 minutes till the other team lost). I also started playing league a while ago, but everytime i won it wouldn't accept my code, but everytime i lost someone uploaded it.
Back on topic: I think troop command is way too strong for the beginning and way too weak for the later game. I just have to start with a scout and a troop command and i can win against all other tactics - even bombarding rockets are no problem normally. If you tryy to play a game against the warrior clan, you canb see what i mean: 3 of them start out with a scout and a troop command, and they literally creep you down.

Maybe i just missed something, but i already tried bombarding rockets, 2 basic magic + scout, tank + upgrades, heli + upgrades, tank + fan of knives, heli + plasma gun and many more - but, as i said - maybe i just missed something...

Btw. i also agree on the dark force being easier to play, but i like it that way, as 95% of the players out there are noobs - the most noobish players are always those shouting "I'm pro, you will never win"

I'd really like to hear your opinion on this topic...

Just do scout + troop against me.... And you will see this "imba" tech is easily beatable. A lot of players are able to counter it...
(and if they all use troop, just buy one bow...)

It is normal that the troop is less useful at the end of the game... It is just a 2500 gold item.

Against noob, all tech are easy wins...

[Gammagulp]

You missed a very important tactic. Demolisher with bow.
As the bow is able to kill creeps, they cant hit you good. As mines lvl2 are lethal to scouts and artillerie strike lvl 1 is for Tinker you can get them down without being in danger. (also you can use the wave for massive creep damage)
The problem is, that it is difficult to argue with fighting against 3 troop users. It is as difficult as to fight against 3 long rangers. You need good players at your side too, to counter such tactics.

If they use hulls you get them buying no weapon and just use their troops. you can get them into a difficult situation, where you could kill them later by clever investment of your gold, when they are forced to buy hulls maybe. (if you are using demolisher)
--> what about fast shredder with metal stars ?

I usally use troop command later, because it can save your life, but it is no real endgame item as it was said. As starting item I dont like it, because it gives you no firepower when your troops are dead.

[DerSatan]

scout + troop command is a nice start, but of course it can be countered. every starting tank (besides scout) got an AoE spell, which is really good against a troop command player. if you just play the tactic you always play, maybe helicopter/bombardment, skilling rocket, speed + tank cannon you do something wrong.

and if 3 players go troop command, 3 enemy players should go for AoE/multibow or whatever to counter them. it gets even easier, because more troops spawned at a time means AoE spells deal more damage.

[ChronicStoned]

bit offtopic:
how much exp do u get for killing tc creeps?
they have a lesser bounty then the force creeps
and for me it seems that they also give less exp.
how much exp do they give( 1/2; 1/4?)

[SCorpA1]

if you buy a new tank, heavy tank is good against troop massing, because youve got your heavy armor, wich reduce the damge of the creeps and the ulti, wich can kill all creeps in a area around the tank

[griffin1987]

First, thanks for moving the topic - i wasn't sure if i should post a new topic, as i felt the troop command problem wasn't as big in earlier versions (<8.48 or something along that line)

1. Just using a bow did not work yet - if you the other player gets a scout with a bow, i can simply kill him with the creeps. If he gets a tank it's the same, one multibow just doesn't kill fast enough. If it's two he will easily spend way too much gold in the beginning.

2. If you start with demolisher - well, i shall not say much: Haven't encountered a single player who was able to not loose terribly with a demolisher. The mines are extremely underpowered at the beginning, and later on you normally already got a better tank or a hull.

3. Heavy tank? I'm talkin about 3k start - the moment you got a heavy tank i already got a ghost tank with my troop command and a poison magic and upgraded speed boost - you still think you will win with your Heavy Tank + probably Swarm Rockets? (pardon me for saying that, but most newbies take swarm rockets when buying a heavy tank as second tank)

About AOE abilities: Yes, they are rather good for killing creeps, but troop command can spawn creeps about 20-30% faster than most basic AOE spells reload - so you will still be pushed back.

The other problem is: while you probably get at most 50% of the creep kills + some gold for the troop command creeps (they are worth way less than normal creeps), the player with the troop command + scout gets about 90% of the creep kills, which sums up to way more money.

Multiple tanks with AOE agains multiple scout with TC: yes, the tanks will win - but only if the scouts and the tanks play on the same lane. Maybe I didn't state that earlier, but scout + TC isn't nearly as effective in the mid as it is e.g. on the bottom lane when playing dark force (or some other lane when playing 1 vs 1)

Most of the time i can conquer a lane with this method within the first 2 minutes - if i get good resistance it can take up to 6 minutes - playing against a real pro takes about 11 minutes, as i can get a ghost tank at 10 minutes of time or earlier (i'm always talking about a normal 3k start without hb - with hb the thing is even more extrem)

I certainly didn't mean to attack anyone with my statements, please tell me if i offended you. Otherwise just drop a new comment, as i'm very interested as to where this is going.

[Althend]

Your problem is simple: You don't move... You are suppose to go back when creep approch you. I don't believe that with one bow you are unable to stop troop... Bt is game of movement... If you stay still, it is normal you die...

[qweqqweq]

This argument is going nowhere and just wasting time in my opinion so here's my solution:

My name is qweqqweq in all the realms except kalimdor. Just friend me and whisper me when you see me online so that we can play a quick one vs. one game in the bottom lane if you wish. You can go ahead and get the troop comand and scout and i'll random a tank. I'm not saying i'm going to crush you or anything but I can guarantee you there is no way that you're going to dominate me with that crap item.

[GooglyBoogly]

1. Just using a bow did not work yet - if you the other player gets a scout with a bow, i can simply kill him with the creeps. If he gets a tank it's the same, one multibow just doesn't kill fast enough. If it's two he will easily spend way too much gold in the beginning.

uh.. 2xbow costs 2.2k, 1x troop command costs 2.5k.
2x bow creeps faster than troop command, AND it counters troop command AND it costs less. What is this "spend too much gold in the beginning you speak of?"

[griffin1987]

1. I do move, in fact more than everyone else, as i'm always speed freak and got a little bonus on movement when hosting - in fact, it think it would be strange for me not moving, as i'd been playing UT for about 4 years - but that was before it got boring and i started switching to wc3 Btw: I really can't understand how most of you can play that well with a bad host - sometimes the latency (latency is important, not "lags") is so small that it's not a problem, but sometimes the host just utterly sucks and i can't play anywhere near my normal level. That's also the most important point as to why I like hosting myself way more (besides me disliking ppl with kicktools)

2. Deal. I'll just have to clean up my friends list a bit - btw: are you in any clan? I'm just asking out of curiousity.

3. You got a point on that, but still: I can kill tanks with a troop command, with 2 multi bows you cannot if you take a scout - again, if you take tank, it's a different story, as i know that it's not that hard to kill some ppl with the tank cannon only (in fact it happens quite often). The other thing is, it just took you 2 slots and you always have to stay on the front line yourself and: creeps only weapons have been greatly reduced in dps for the last few versions (would have to look it up to exactly say when this started, but i think it was somewhere around 8.50)

Again, thanks for you comments - I really like the way some ppl of this forum are always able to keep their cool and comment in a friendly way, it's way better than on some other forums... (especially those windows vs apple vs linux fanboys forums )

[Carcharoth2]

I simply think that troop command isn´t imba, it is a nice item, but it has some disadvantages. During your cooldown (i know it is a short cooldown) you are very vulnerable. In addition you will never get kills vs pros with this item, maybe one kill in 10 minutes (k antigrav with troops or middlegame ,but that is a different discussion). With weapons you get easier kills.
Troop command creeps nice and you cant often push the enemy back (depends on the enemy strategie), but you cant kill the tower or get the cp if the enemy has the same skill lvl like you

(@ Griffin: dont take this comment to seroius^^, but i remember more then one game against you where i defeated you and you left)

[qweqqweq]

1. I do move, in fact more than everyone else, as i'm always speed freak and got a little bonus on movement when hosting - in fact, it think it would be strange for me not moving, as i'd been playing UT for about 4 years - but that was before it got boring and i started switching to wc3 Btw: I really can't understand how most of you can play that well with a bad host - sometimes the latency (latency is important, not "lags") is so small that it's not a problem, but sometimes the host just utterly sucks and i can't play anywhere near my normal level. That's also the most important point as to why I like hosting myself way more (besides me disliking ppl with kicktools)

2. Deal. I'll just have to clean up my friends list a bit - btw: are you in any clan? I'm just asking out of curiousity.

3. You got a point on that, but still: I can kill tanks with a troop command, with 2 multi bows you cannot if you take a scout - again, if you take tank, it's a different story, as i know that it's not that hard to kill some ppl with the tank cannon only (in fact it happens quite often). The other thing is, it just took you 2 slots and you always have to stay on the front line yourself and: creeps only weapons have been greatly reduced in dps for the last few versions (would have to look it up to exactly say when this started, but i think it was somewhere around 8.50)

Again, thanks for you comments - I really like the way some ppl of this forum are always able to keep their cool and comment in a friendly way, it's way better than on some other forums... (especially those windows vs apple vs linux fanboys forums )

1. Yes, lag does suck!!!

2. If you look underneath my avatar to the right you'll see what clans i'm in, in each realm. ===========================================================================================>

3. Just because an item is nerfed doesn't mean it's bad. I'm glad we were able to make you feel all warm and fuzzy. But If you were a peon in Clan BT then you'd know that I definately DO NOT keep my cool all the time.

[griffin1987]

@Carcharoth2:

Can well be that you defeated me, I never said I'm undefeated In fact i loose about 20% of my games, and about 80% of those 20% are because of some team mates (not because they are bad, but beccause they are so bad that they play against there own team - exploder which is always only killing teammates for example), 15% are because of my own noobishness ( i think everyone has those days) and 5% because the other team really IS better and really IS very good. But as you can imagine those 5% of 20% are about 1% of all my games

Still, it can well be that you defeated me, as i remember your name, and i tend to remember only the names of ppl who are extremely fun to play with / against and those who are at least somewhat good, and i think you fall into the second category.

Still, me leaving: At least that can not be, I only ever had 1 bt game where I left, and that was due to my warcraft crashing - I've disabled music since then and never left a game again, not even if i already had lost (in fact i like defending way more than sieging, as it seems to leave more space for crazy tactics)

----------

Back on topic:
I think it would suffice to make the troop command cost 2600 or 2700 instead of 2500, as that would already make a serious difference - in TKF's bt reflection for example the troop command costs even 3500. Another possibility would be to increase cooldown by half a second or a bit more. And if yyou talk about not being able to kill pro ppl: well, that might well be true (in fact you can even kill them sometimes if they have a lag or retreat some tenths of a second too late or they think you are a noob), but as i already said, you will still get way more gold for killing creeps (and you won't loose out on xp either)

@qweqqweq:
1. good to hear that from someone else

2. lame clan names)))))
sorry, just had to say that

3. did I say that a multi bow is bad? my bad then - just never saw someone playing it successfull (except some real good pros who i think can play well with about every tactic).

[griffin1987]

Edit: Sorry qweqqweq -i just thought that the last 4 lines displayed on the right were your clans, silly me

[Althend]

I really think the troop command is perfect as it is... Griffin, all member of the forum are able to counter scout + troop. In fact I have never met any average players unable to counter it. Troop give more gold and xp to the opponent and when it is destroyed, it doesn't give anything to the owner. A level4 tank can use 360 damage on all your troop and kill them in 5sec. Even if the cooldown of the troop command is a bit faster, the opponent has all his time to kick your ass ^__^

[Morkardar]

Creep command is one of the best late game items.
It is the dot of the "i" when you got decent weapons and good tanks.
You fight an enemy and the fire is spread to your troop command units.
If you take only 1 second dmg devided by 9 units of avanced troop pack and do dmg to the enemy with them,
you may reconsider your "weak" statement fast.

[griffin1987]

@Althend: what you said is just plain wrong -
1. look at how much hp the spawned troops have: 360 dmg is not nearly enough to kill them in one blow
2. 5 seconds normally means 5 shots of your tank cannon + whatever you got, which normally does not wield enough to kill the rest of the hp, and even if it does - if there were no troop command, you would have dealt that dmg to the normal dark force creeps, so mathematically spoken you lost something.
3. How can you speak for everyone? I'm a member of this forum as well, and i posted this topic - okay, i know how to counter troop command, but that is to get a troop command myself. Also: More gold??? Are you sane??? Troop command units give way less gold, and for every troop command unit you kill you probably kill one force unit less, which means (force unit gold) - (troop command unit gold) less for you.
4. Okay, so you mean that after you killed those troop command units you can just step on, follow me wherever you want to and kill me? I have to say it again: are you sane? There are still force creeps which can easily kill you early in the game (in fact they can as well kill you later on, but it happens not quite as frequently) and the tank with the troop command ain't static either and can move back and forth all the time and just avoid your shots while killing creeps with his creep cannon

@Morkador:
If you meant my statement about creeps being weak in the late game: Mathematically spoken you may be right .- but you forgot one factor: The troop command takes a whole slot, which means for example one upgraded gold hull less or maybe one poison magic less or whatever you play normally, and as my setup late game normally is something like titan with one or two gold hulls, an ultimate pack and some weapons, whis would mean a difference of at least 30% firepower difference (taking the tank canon into account for some percentage), which is quite more than enough to outweight the troop command units. And don't forget all those mass kill skills - the wave of the infernal for example should kill all of them in the blink of an eye, as does the devil explosion and so on (depends on upgrades of the skill used and of the creep armor of course)

Sorry for the offence (this time i sure did offend at least Althend), I just think this discussion is getting off hand if you start to throw numbers in without any mathematical ground - also, i don't like to get ppl angry, so it could well be better to close this topic.

[Althend]

@Althend: what you said is just plain wrong -
1. look at how much hp the spawned troops have: 360 dmg is not nearly enough to kill them in one blow
2. 5 seconds normally means 5 shots of your tank cannon + whatever you got, which normally does not wield enough to kill the rest of the hp, and even if it does - if there were no troop command, you would have dealt that dmg to the normal dark force creeps, so mathematically spoken you lost something.
3. How can you speak for everyone? I'm a member of this forum as well, and i posted this topic - okay, i know how to counter troop command, but that is to get a troop command myself. Also: More gold??? Are you sane??? Troop command units give way less gold, and for every troop command unit you kill you probably kill one force unit less, which means (force unit gold) - (troop command unit gold) less for you.
4. Okay, so you mean that after you killed those troop command units you can just step on, follow me wherever you want to and kill me? I have to say it again: are you sane? There are still force creeps which can easily kill you early in the game (in fact they can as well kill you later on, but it happens not quite as frequently) and the tank with the troop command ain't static either and can move back and forth all the time and just avoid your shots while killing creeps with his creep cannon

1/ 360 remove a lot to them, your weapon + basic canon do near 250 damage/sec at least. 6-7 sec to end them all.
2/ You are also surrounded by creep.
3/ No one seems to agree your point ^__^ and troop is a creation of money.
4/ Rocket and shoot, Scout has less than 700 hp. If the scout is too far, he spawns the troop too far from you and it is easier for you too kill them without leaving him the time to kill creep.

Now, as qwek said, just whips ingame i can show you.