Varying Weapon Types

[Kenny]

I don't know... I just don't find the alternate modes useful compared to stacking a bunch of 1,111-2,200 gold weapons that can attack everything. (and destroy everything at that)

I'm thinking why not make the alternate weapon modes attack normally at 75% damage, but whenever it hits something specific such as an enemy air tank, it hits at 200% damage? Because well, five seconds is a lot of time your weapon isn't doing anything, especially if an enemy notices your Rock Catapults have a habit of inflicting damage on their factories.

Or instead of a damage bonus, we could get a range bonus. Or perhaps even penalizing an aspect for an excessive benefit on another to change your playstyle without changing your weapons. Maybe even affect the intervals your damage is put out.

Examples...

Basic Magic (Normal)
Cooldown: 1.5 second(s)
Damage: 111
Range: 999

Changes mode to:
Basic Magic (Creeps Only)
Cooldown: 1.2 second(s)
Damage: 111
Range: 1111
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Light Plasma Gun (Normal)
Cooldown: 1.5 second(s)
Damage: 105 (x2)
Range: 950

Changes mode to:

Light Plasma Gun (Normal)
Cooldown: 3 second(s)
Damage: 210 (x2)
Range: 950
___________________

Basic Cannon (Normal)
Cooldown: 2 second(s)
Damage: 310
Range: 860

Changes mode to:
Basic Cannon (Normal)
Cooldown: 3 second(s)
Damage: 310
Range: 1300

My math is off and would need to be adjusted accordingly, but you get the idea. More choices from the weapon your stuck with is what I'm shooting for here.
___________________

Onto another matter, I'd have to question the value of the Sky Tank at this point. By default they have 6,500 hit points which is hardly better than the Heavy Tank's if at all. Then you consider the Sky Tank's abilities are very close range (one of them being channeling, hello stun!) when they don't have the hit points and we have a tank I don't use anymore because the Heavy Tank is not only better but cheaper.

Flamestrike is of course, a problem in itself. Thanks to Blizzard, if there are more than five units in the area of effect that potential 5,000 damage is split between however many units there are. 10 units? 500 damage to each. 20? 250 damage to each. In late game where the upgrades and possibly factories/troop commands are really stacking, there are some situations where you would be better off casting the Light Tank's level 2 Cluster Rockets.
____________________________

One last thing... Summons, whether from a Heavy Tank, Ghost Tank, Demon Tank, Infernal Robot, Troop Command... In my opinion should not scale with automated and free upgrades. Where's my Blizzard that strikes for 3,000 damage per wave, or my Iceblock that deals 6,000 damage and stuns for five seconds? That is hardly even an exaggeration about the extent their summons are affected. Seeing these mini-Firelords with 4,000+ hit points and nearly a thousand chaos damage per strike... Yep, I think we have a problem.

Also I'd say the Demon Tank/Infernal Robot summon-on-kill abilities need to be reworked. If I've destroyed the majority of the enemy base, suddenly I can't use one of my most powerful abilities. With the aid of these same abilities on their side in addition to burrows for that time I actually manage to dispose of the real threats on their team, suddenly I can't finish them because of these extremely damage-resistant barriers that make their main base invulnerable when it's clear they can't actually do anything to win the game.

[Exodus]

I don't know... I just don't find the alternate modes useful compared to stacking a bunch of 1,111-2,200 gold weapons that can attack everything. (and destroy everything at that)

I'm thinking why not make the alternate weapon modes attack normally at 75% damage, but whenever it hits something specific such as an enemy air tank, it hits at 200% damage? Because well, five seconds is a lot of time your weapon isn't doing anything, especially if an enemy notices your Rock Catapults have a habit of inflicting damage on their factories.

That would require triggering and therefore cause more lags. Regarding the weapons its better for BT if we just use the normal ability of the phoenix-fire in my opinion. Weapons with alternate modes are not useful everytime, thats right, but they have their useful moments. And just like with every weapon, everyone has a favourite one and so some one likes these weapons and others not ... I think they are quite balanced.

Flamestrike is of course, a problem in itself. Thanks to Blizzard, if there are more than five units in the area of effect that potential 5,000 damage is split between however many units there are. 10 units? 500 damage to each. 20? 250 damage to each. In late game where the upgrades and possibly factories/troop commands are really stacking, there are some situations where you would be better off casting the Light Tank's level 2 Cluster Rockets.

I guess you are referring to the maximum damage value this skill has. It has been set to infinite, thatswhy this skill deals full damage to every unit, it doesn't matter how much of them there are.

One last thing... Summons, whether from a Heavy Tank, Ghost Tank, Demon Tank, Infernal Robot, Troop Command... In my opinion should not scale with automated and free upgrades. Where's my Blizzard that strikes for 3,000 damage per wave, or my Iceblock that deals 6,000 damage and stuns for five seconds? That is hardly even an exaggeration about the extent their summons are affected. Seeing these mini-Firelords with 4,000+ hit points and nearly a thousand chaos damage per strike... Yep, I think we have a problem.

I added them some time ago to make the upgrades more valuable to every player. Of course, now its more extreme because of the increased number of upgrades but on the other side, if I'd remove the upgrades from them, then they couldn't keep up with the normal creeps and would be too weak in late game.
But you are right with the other skills, since they wont get stronger. One possibilty would be to add bounty to these summons too (of course a small one)

Also I'd say the Demon Tank/Infernal Robot summon-on-kill abilities need to be reworked. If I've destroyed the majority of the enemy base, suddenly I can't use one of my most powerful abilities. With the aid of these same abilities on their side in addition to burrows for that time I actually manage to dispose of the real threats on their team, suddenly I can't finish them because of these extremely damage-resistant barriers that make their main base invulnerable when it's clear they can't actually do anything to WIN.

Well, how should I change these abilities?
And the Barricade ... well, its possible to change it that way that Barricades wont make your main building invulnerable.


EDIT: ah, you edited your post ... I think I changed enough of the already existing weapons, if you want more variety I'd rather make a new shop with new weapons where some of them may work the way you suggested them.

[Kenny]

That would require triggering and therefore cause more lags. Regarding the weapons its better for BT if we just use the normal ability of the phoenix-fire in my opinion. Weapons with alternate modes are not useful everytime, thats right, but they have their useful moments. And just like with every weapon, everyone has a favourite one and so some one likes these weapons and others not ... I think they are quite balanced.

What about the idea of making weapon transition time faster or even instantaneous? We have enough hotkeys as it is, so I'd imagine it would still be a premeditative ability and not something you can switch on and off as necessary, at least not without making you more susceptible to surprise attack...

I guess you are referring to the maximum damage value this skill has. It has been set to infinite, thatswhy this skill deals full damage to every unit, it doesn't matter how much of them there are.

Er... Are you sure? I recall playing the Sky Tank a lot in 8.23 and the Flamestrike damage seemed minimal versus large crowds, though I'd imagine I deviated from using Flamestrike in my build for a reason... Absolutely not the free 300 DPS Tank Cannon under normal circumstances.

I added them some time ago to make the upgrades more valuable to every player. Of course, now its more extreme because of the increased number of upgrades but on the other side, if I'd remove the upgrades from them, then they couldn't keep up with the normal creeps and would be too weak in late game.
But you are right with the other skills, since they wont get stronger. One possibilty would be to add bounty to these summons too (of course a small one)

If I recall correctly, at least the mini-Firelords have fortified armor. Coupled with what I believe is the ability to spawn more mini-Firelords with mini-Firelords, it makes them a pretty solid pushing machine. Maybe you could at least make them scale with upgrades a bit slower in addition to giving them heavy armor (type)? Maybe a few more armor points if you think they're too weak with heavy armor.

Well, how should I change these abilities?
And the Barricade ... well, its possible to change it that way that Barricades wont make your main building invulnerable.

Well the idea of deploying them instantly like the Heavy Tank/Ghost Tank would make it a bit more balanced for both sides... But at the same time at that level of play it would be a sick combat ability. Maybe give them the ability to summon less at a time at a lesser mana cost/cooldown. Actually I'd be in favor of all the summon abilities working in a manner similiar to this. It's just sick how often one can just Blink right next to the enemy base, deploy level five Mortar Team and/or Siege Pack/Troop Command, and poof you just lost a third of your base buh-bye! On that note I'd just have to ask why that's far more effective than the "siege type" weapons available...

I also couldn't help but notice the most expensive weapon is twice the price of the most expensive tank... That doesn't make much sense to me really. Well... We could use a tank to end all tanks, if not at least a viable endgame tank I think.

[Vomitus]

I also couldn't help but notice the most expensive weapon is twice the price of the most expensive tank... That doesn't make much sense to me really. Well... We could use a tank to end all tanks, if not at least a viable endgame tank I think.

Yes, I always asked myself, where is that tank, that can, at least, survive under 6 frost lasers? It's about 2.5 seconds for inferno, 1.5 seconds to frost robot and <1 second for others(without hulls). But this all is only in general, for comparison.

As for the business, there should be a devastating tank with LOTS of HP. But... But that extra HP have to cost much more than in usual tanks. For example, inferno has 1:1 hp:price ratio. Our 'Father-Tank' should have less ratio and receive only 75% HP of it's price.
As an example I see our Father Tank(Yes, let's call it rightly - the Father Tank!:)) like this:
cost: 30 000
hp: 20 000
hp per level: 750
abilities should be worked on.

As a continuation to the subject allow me to announce - the latest word in nowadays science and military shipbuilding! Enter the Battle Cruiser!
Assembled in most concealed underground war factories of China, coated with honestly stolen Russian armor and equipped with most modern USA laser systems this piece of warfare lays ash to your enemies on the battlefield!

lol

So, this must be something like:
cost: 30 000
hp: 15 000
hp per level: 500
abilities should be worked on.

As for abilities, we could change basic cannon to some kind of mini laser with greater damage or even sacrifice this basic cannon at all for some passive skill.

I assume this idea is a bit mad but ponder this all for a moment...

[TKF]

I also find it a bit weird that the most expensive tanks does cost 15000 while you can stack a bunch of more expensive weapons in the inventory. Battlecruiser model in warcraft is ugly I think. Also it would been good if you suggested a model of the "father tank". I would have suggested Firelord model as a matching super tank which could compete with infernal robot.

There is goblin alchemist, rock golem, montain giant and firelord which is ingame models and could possible used for new models (but they don't look like tanks, more like robots), but most of the mech like models which exist in warcraft is already used and tank-like models is preferred by exodus and bob666.

_

However I did find 2 nice new models at hiveworkshop

Obsidian Tank To Large filesize

Air Fighter Small filesize

But I don't think they look that powerful, but if the Obsidian Tank filesize has been smaller, I think it would be implemented as a new tank in battle tanks^^

[Vomitus]

@TKF:
I'll later look at warcraft editor for available models for new tanks.
But, at all, wt have to wait for acceptance of ideas by higher government

[TKF]

Unfortunately most of the models in warcraft that is used does look like tank like models. There is not much you will find in warcraft editor. I did download the undead tank, but it only got walk and stand animations It looks cool, but it lacks proper animations, but the undead fighter looks somewhat promising... thus it lacks attack animation, it has proper walk/death animations.

[Kenny]

I also wouldn't mind some "channeling" type moves that under normal circumstances can be avoided, but really punish you if you don't.

Something like... A two-second channeling Antigrav "Jump" with the channel time and chosen path clearly visible (The Antigrav facing the chosen direction with the Big Bad Voodoo animation the Bomb has for example) which, for the Antigrav would cause 300/600/900/1,200/1,500 (Roughly 1.5X normal for its class) damage to everything in its path and 200 range to the sides. Basically, I think we need more giant tank-sized haymaker kinds of moves and not simple point-and-click for 1,500 damage. I could see the Demolisher's fireball ability damage being increased by 1.5X in addition to a slightly larger area of effect... In exchange for two second channeling and a shiny red dot that indicates his target.

Also... The only time a team might actually *need* a Bomb to help clean up, it's practically impossible to get off. How about a new (very expensive) tank with the ability to convert the Bomb into a highly ranged Missile with the same effect? Something with a range of about 2,000 that can only be used after a five second transition into "Siege Mode"... :twisted:

[TKF]

New article about a recipe shop that can combine items with items and weapon(s) and fuse them into 1 item/weapon.

I'm talking about weapons here in this thread

Modified Energy Torpedo (4500)

Requirements: Energy Torpedo (Upgrade), 700 gold, Team attack level 2.


Modified Energy Torpedo (Vehicle only)

Damage: 577
Cooldown: 3.33 sec
Range: 1300
DPS: 173

Change weapon mode to creep only -> Bonus, 3x projectiles, -52 dmg

Modified Energy Torpedo (Creeps only)

Damage: 515(3x)
Cooldown: 3.33 sec
Range: 1300
DPS: 463


Modified Bombs (10000)

Requirements: Bombs (Upgrade), Basic Cannon (Upgrade), free of charge, Team attack level 4.


Modified Bombs (Only for air, target ground and structures only)

Damage: 728
Cooldown: 0.5 sec
Range: 800
DPS: 1456

Change weapon mode to player vehicles only -> Bonus -103 dmg

Modified Bombs (Only for air, target ground vehicles only)

Damage:625
Cooldown: 0.5 sec
Range: 800
DPS: 1250


Light Torpedo (4000) (Projectile: Witch doctor)

Requirements: Electro Cannon (Upgrade), 400 gold, Team attack level 1.

Light Torpedo (Air Only)

Damage: 127
Cooldown: 0.4 sec
Range: 1050
DPS: 317

Change weapon mode to ground only -> Bonus: none

Light Torpedo (Ground Only)

Damage: 127
Cooldown: 0.4 sec
Range: 1050
DPS: 317

Aegis Missile Pack (12000)

Requirements: AA Gun (Upgrade), Swarm Rockets (Upgrade), free of charge, Team attack level 5.

Aegis Missile Pack (Only for ground, target air only)

Damage: 210(2x)
Cooldown: 0.3 sec
Range: 1000
DPS: 1400

Change weapon mode to only for ground, normal -> Bonus cooldown -0.05 sec

Aegis Missile Pack (Only for ground)

Damage: 210(2x)
Cooldown: 0.35 sec
Range: 1000
DPS: 1200


Heavy Plasma Cannon (9000) (Projectile: devils curse old projectile)

Requirements: Plasma Fragments (normal), Light Plasma (Upgrade), Team attack level 3, 500 gold.

Damage: 480(2x)
Cooldown: 1.6 seconds
Range: 1000
Damage per second: 600
Upgrade-Costs: 3000
Bonus-Cooldown: -0.4

Lava Cannon (4900) (Projectile: Firelord? lavaspawn?)

Requirements: Fireball Cannon (upgrade), Molotov Cocktail (Upgrade), Team attack level 2, free of charge.

Damage: 447
Cooldown: 1.3 seconds
Range: 950
Damage per second: 344
Upgrade-Costs: 1600
Bonus-Damage: 146

[Exodus]

Combining items is ok, but weapons ... not really.

You know, we already had that idea once, there already were item combinations (Frost Laser -> Laser + Frost Cannon). But it turned out that really everyone bought that weapons and that was kinda stupid. Its not that combining weapons is imba, we just would have to do it with nearly every weapon to balance it out but ... well, kinda too much.

[Tribulation]

It's an interesting idea, could result in something like the recipes in DotA. That does sound interesting, but the disadvantages outweigh every potential advantage: too much work to implement and balance recipes, and it would make the game very hard to learn for noobs.

[TKF]

There is a missing cheap hero only weapon. Price class could be 1100-3000 gold.