THE MINES!! To strong, good enough or to weak?

[horselance]

Well... First of all, demolisher can buy a multibow at startup to kill creeps. That means it can earn money from creeps as well.
Second thing is, mines are not for killing people in one hit. Dont u think this would be too lame. They cause pretty good damage because they are on battlefield and when you take 1500 or 1600 (dont matter... It is more than a light tank HP) in battlefield now you are best target to be hit by other fighters. And if u play 1v1 dont buy mines then...
Third thing is, mine fuse kit thing is very unuseful. You give pretty good money for it and you dont even see those mines. You need another detector. Waste of lots of money. For what? One players' mines... At least it should ping on minimap...
IMO their damage is more than enough because it is instant and unexpected...

[Gammagulp]

I´m with horselance, I think the mines damage is ok but there is one point you can´t ignore.
If just one enemy is a miner you need 2 Items to counter it.

You have 6 Slots - you need radar and defuse (-2Slots) [while enemy only needs 1 ^^]
:arrow: If you got a Hull and a pack or teleporter you have 4 Slots blocked.
That means you can´t buy 3 weapons or
:arrow: if you buy a repair or teleport breaker additionally you only can have

1 Weapon :!: hock:

Maybe you readd the minedefuse/radar Pack or add it to your Packs - so you need only one item for detecting and defuse

I already played a defuser against a Tinker player with huge mines. I had only 1 Weapon with me if i wanted to place a teleport breaker against an exploder on the field.

[TKF]

I agree that using a radar and a defuse kit as 2 items is somewhat annoying since they consume 2 inventory slots.

• There is 2 possible solutions if they should be combined
  
  Make the radar upgradeable to defuse kit with radar
  OR
  Make a pack that allows you to fuse radar and defuser into a defuse kit
  
  +That makes 1 more inventory slot open
  -If the enemy sells/stops with mining tactic, you lose 625 more gold in selling the kit
  -You also sells your radar capability by selling the defuse kit
  

_____

But I'm not sure the mappers will consider to combine these 2 items again...


You see, your teammate can also carry a radar, and you could have the defuser. With good teamwork this should work. Also it is possible to use the defuser alone as a minesweeper or radar alone as a means to dodge the mines.

Well if your opponent has huge mines, the radar and defuse kit is effective means to coumter this tactic, but is it worth 2 slots? maybe...

[Tribulation]

Isn't it possible to add the possibility of combining radar and remote defuser into an item "anti mine kit", which can also be disassembled again? Like in DotA, where you can split some items (like Perserverance, Ring of Basilus) which automatically combine if added to the inventory together.

[Gammagulp]

-If the enemy sells/stops with mining tactic, you lose 625 more gold in selling the kit

I dont think this is negative, as I use the defuse against real mine laying items. I dont use it against demolisher Mines :wink: .
If my enemy bought a huge minelayer for 7500 gold he looses more by selling, than me

Or would you say its negative to sell radar if enemy stops to use smoke item, as the smoke item costs much more than radar. ^^

(When i play BT im a really cruel merchant; if I see no use for it, I dont invest gold --> or the enemy could loose more money than me :mrgreen: )

[Bob666]

in future version you probably can combine the remote fuse and radar in some way

[Tribulation]

Nice!

[Hirnmuskel]

i hate mines! when you are playing normal against a tank which lay down mines, you'll die to often till you can buy a hull... and pros lay down very much mines, too much! so i think, there should be a maximum of mines! what about one mine per level and a constant damage of 2000?

[horselance]

What if mine limit is full and none steps on your mines? You wont place any mines until they explode?

IMO mines should have a limited life-time. This will make their numbers limited. For example 480-600 seconds. Then they explode automatically.

[Althend]

I think that the solution is to make mines destroyable if we are able to see them...
(or destroyable only by magical attack)

[Frechheit]

I think i can say based on my Experience that mines are a way to strong.

For this Imbalance i have 2 solutions.

1) air cant be victims of mines

or

2) the mines can damage both enemies and own team

seeya

[Prog]

I think i can say based on my Experience that mines are a way to strong.

I don't agree, i think they are well balanced. Good players won't die that often due to mines and they are quite easy to counter if you have problems with them (hull, but i remember you that last game you played against 2 demolishers without hull and had no death, guess it can't be so imba then, right?)

[Frechheit]

I think i can say based on my Experience that mines are a way to strong.

I don't agree, i think they are well balanced. Good players won't die that often due to mines and they are quite easy to counter if you have problems with them (hull, but i remember you that last game you played against 2 demolishers without hull and had no death, guess it can't be so imba then, right?)

tzzz^^ indeterman...

but what is the counter for example on lane?^^

[Prog]

Light Tank: Early hull is enough, if you move carefully.
Helicopter without hull: movement mostly above trees. Its quite important to remember where the enemy plants mines (you can see when he stops for planting - look for common planting habits (will be hard against thinking players, who adapt to your movement habits and may fake mine plantings); or get hull as well.

When someone in mid or on the other lane got air ship, heavy or similar tank switch with him, becouse you'll be slower in changing tank (you can't kill good demolishers, but they can't kill you as well, so he'll be quite slow too). You might sell your hull to teammates for faster airship or heavy.

[horselance]

Well it is enough to watch your steps. Watch enemy and see where he plants. And in early game dont rush to enemy. Draw a line and dont let enemy pass that line. And you dont pass that line too. Until you get a tank... Rest is easy.

Also you can spend money and buy a radar(not too expensive for your survival). Where (item) Mine will cost 2500 and no tank and no weapon. Let him waste his time with mines. And dont let him live nor build...

Dont think mines are strong... But really disturbing !!

[Frechheit]

Well it is enough to watch your steps. Watch enemy and see where he plants. And in early game dont rush to enemy. Draw a line and dont let enemy pass that line. And you dont pass that line too. Until you get a tank... Rest is easy.

Also you can spend money and buy a radar(not too expensive for your survival). Where (item) Mine will cost 2500 and no tank and no weapon. Let him waste his time with mines. And dont let him live nor build...

Dont think mines are strong... But really disturbing !!

Rest^^ Do u know that the demolisher on the lane can creep like hell and u must watch every step to creep?

I think u must play against me on lane with light tank or sth. like that against good demo..u donst stand a chance.

And radar is bad too.

[horselance]

Frechheit wrote:
Do u know that the demolisher on the lane can creep like hell and u must watch every step to creep?

You dont need to go him to get creeps. And demolishers' 1k mine does not hurt that much. You can safely pass 2 mines at once. If you rage too much, than you will pay for it!! That is why I say it is not strong but disturbing.

And another issue is ; when a player changes tinker to other tank, all towers are gone. But when a demolisher changes tank, his mines are still there. I think all demolisher mines must be removed after demolisher changes to other tank...

[Tribulation]

You can always get a ward to see the mines, enabling you to avoid them or carefully sweep them, even with light tank. Since a player with demolisher cannot possibly match your firepower, you'll be able to drive him back and establish the line horselance mentioned closer to his cp than to your own cp, which enables you to "camp" there and creep. You will probably not be able to kill him, but he can neither kill you, and his mines are worth much less because all he can do is mine the terrain between the line and the tower. It's your "lane responsibility", you have to keep track of where he plants the mines, i.e. the bridge in the lower right corner: if he keeps going there, it's mined, don't go there or get the means to counter his mines. A hull matches his hp, while your firepower remains superior, and he might not be able to creep that well (unless he's got a multibow, but he's harmless in player v. player situations then). Sure it suxx to repeatedly step on a mine, but it is part of the game, and it's no worse than frequently being blown up by a suicider, and I believe it's easier to counter mines than to counter a good suicider (you can decrease his chances of blowing you up, but you cannot eliminate them, but you can reduce the danger of stepping on a mine to near zero). If you wait before choosing your tank, you can take the first step to counter the enemies' choices: if you see that you're up against, let's say three demos and 2 players with long range, think twice if you really wanna get tinker with etorp, just to give an example. The power mines have is matched by the risk you take when choosing mines.

Edit: I don't think mines should be removed once the demolisher who planted them changes his tank, because it's a legitimate strategy to mine the cp you are guarding to make a future capture harder, and all it takes to counter a heavily mined cp is the ward for 200 (or 300?) gold. Single (or few, and you won't have the time to plant huge minefields in places people seldomely go to, thus most mines will have exploded anyway once the demolisher changes his tank) mines placed around the map are far less powerful (especially if most players already upgraded their hp in one way or another) than towers frequently earning money, e.g. in mid when it's heavily towered.

[horselance]

We tried it with Frecheit and seen that ; demolisher is weak vs Hellicopter (because of the way it can fly over is out of mine fields) But still challenging (because it can creep and dont let you in most areas with mines. So you gotta defend near your base..)

But if you buy a light tank, it becomes nightmare. You cannot leave your base safely. And demolishers' ground attack is killer blow after a mine.

Worst thing is that you can spend money on radar or wards to avoid mines. But you spend money for that while enemy uses only abilty. After a while he will buy a tank and you will have less money thus you will not be getting tank as fast. If you buy hull than this will make your tank too far away. And now you gotta sell your radar (-500gp).

Mines have much damage than other abilities. Can hit both air and ground (unlike most abilies). And can stack... There must be limitation with one of this 3 issue. Either Less damage / Only ground / Limited Life (aprx 2.5min)...

[DerSatan]

i think its the only scenario where demolisher mines are (too?) strong:

demo vs. light tank on a side lane.


ehmm... change lane? watch if your opponnents take demolishers before getting your tank?


i dont think that there is anything to change.