Deflective Armor

[ssl]

if u have low hp for exampe with heli u can prevent for death by skills like a rocket from ht or stun from demon and so on

No.

[RaptorXI]

hey, i just made a bad experience: i started with 2 bonfore and then bought 2 machine guns. the enemy bought upgraded deflective armor and from then it was impossible for me to kill him (yes, really impossible, he could even kill me at my own cp).
a solution came into my mind (without making this armor useless again):

what if it can't fully absorb so every weapon deals a minimal damage?
i propose 50 (if the basic dmg is lower, which only is the case for machine gun [48] afaik, it stays the original basic dmg)

the effect for expensive weapons would be the same [for example: poison magic: effective damage = minimal weapon dmg = 50 = 100 (basic dmg) - 50 (blocked dmg)], while early games weapons wouldn't lose too much dmg and fair for everyone.

[Prog]

I would not handle it with a minimal dmg, but with the effect being a percentage with a maximum of x. Say 50% dmg reduction per shot with 50 points reduction max. Would still be strong against early game rapid fire weapons, but not rendering them completely useless.

[RaptorXI]

That would biase the low-range weapons imo (at least all weapons with low cooldown that almost all of them have).

[Prog]

Can you elaborate on that? Because I don't see how that would biase low cooldown low range weapons at all. It would affect a weapon like the poison magic exactly as it does now, only the cheap weapons (like bonfire) would recieve less of a damage block.

[RaptorXI]

Forget my last post i misunderstood something with that damage cap.
I like that u trying to promote the "early game rapid fire weapons" too (which have are very weak at start 950+ range), but my calculation provided that I'm biasing them a little more.

[Wupti]

I do acknowledge the fact, that the Deflective Armor is overpowered at the moment. My actions to change this won't be as drastic as some people suggested here, but it should help.

option a) dmg dealed to the tank should be : (80 + 80 - 60) * 10 = 1200 DPS

option b) dmg dealed to the tank should be : [(80 - 60) + (80 - 60) ] * 10 = 400 DPS

original dmg dealed to the tank without deflective armor: (80 + 80 )* 10 = 1600 DPS

=> if option a) nerf a bit like the suggestions you made before
=> if option b) remove it from btanks

First I'd like to answer to this post. Just by picking the by far best scenario in which you could use the Deflective Armor doesn't prove its imbaness. By the same logic I could argue, that the Deflective Armor is useless, since it reduces the damage of the Titans Devil Explosion by only 1%.

Nevertheless, I did some calculations on how the Deflective Armor interacts with all weapons and yes, the damage reduction is more, than anticipated before. So I'll make changes to both Burst and Deflective.

The planned new values look like this (upgrades still work the same way):

Burst Armor				Deflective Armor
Dmg old	Cd old	Dmg new	Cd new	Dmg old	Cd old	Dmg new	Cd new
750	5	600	4	60	0,4	50	0,33

Also, the price will be increased from 800g + 1600g to 1000g + 2000g.

And the last thing: yes, there is going to be a blue print, that includes the Deflective Armor. Funnily enough, everybody seems to come up with the idea to integrate it into the Mass Converter. But I changed how the Armor works in the Mass Converter, it's just a magic resistance there. This way it will become better against certain weapons / skills and worse against others. Also, there should be no perfomance concerns with this solution.

@Unpredictable_m
so far it should block accordingly to your B option because the cooldown of it is 0

@Exodus
at least we agree on 1 part, that the deflective is OP so far, however that seems like the only thing we agree on at this matter

I think your solution of nerf this weapon is wrong since it will lose the purpose I think you created it for.
The problem about this item is that it blocks way too much damage, and not that the cooldown is 0. If you give deflective just as much as 0.00000001 sec cooldown it already has lost it's purpose in my eyes. It might work fine if the opponent has just 1 poison, but what if he has 4? then the deflective armor would only affect 1 of the poisons and the rest of them would do full damage which means the deflective armor wouldn't really do much difference. so please instead of making deflective from an OP item to a shit item i suggest you keep the cooldown at 0 and lower the amount of reduced damage heavily.

@raptorxi
Yes you are right about the fact that the right thing to do when someone buys flamer, poison, laser is to buy deflective to counter it, but what is the alternative for shortrangers? since ghost of dooms and light fantastic is semi range i'm missing a shortrange weapon with high damage and higher cooldown as an alternative for shortrangers to counter deflective aswell. it's not really fair if it goes one way only

[RaptorXI]

I was talking about the early game weapons (Bonfire, Glaive, Machine Gun) that can already be outplayed by basic magics and make most players go the comfortable way to wait for icecannons and above.
Or do you pick them at start?

[progg]

Wupti's right and i wrote about it already in new weapons thread. Except light fantstic, ice canon and inf rockets there's no reasonable counter for deflective. New short range weapons with about 1s cd or remade old would be nice. I also don't see a reason to spend 3k gold for upped burst. This item is just to weak. My suggestion is to make it block all dmg done in 0.5s peroid every 4s. In most cases it still be weaker than deflective but good enought to spend gold for upgrade.

[Exodus]

@Exodus
at least we agree on 1 part, that the deflective is OP so far, however that seems like the only thing we agree on at this matter

I think your solution of nerf this weapon is wrong since it will lose the purpose I think you created it for.
The problem about this item is that it blocks way too much damage, and not that the cooldown is 0. If you give deflective just as much as 0.00000001 sec cooldown it already has lost it's purpose in my eyes. It might work fine if the opponent has just 1 poison, but what if he has 4? then the deflective armor would only affect 1 of the poisons and the rest of them would do full damage which means the deflective armor wouldn't really do much difference. so please instead of making deflective from an OP item to a shit item i suggest you keep the cooldown at 0 and lower the amount of reduced damage heavily.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote there. The changes you have quoted are already implemented since v8.76. The numbers there only apply to the basic versions of both Burst and Deflective Armor. The upgraded Deflective Armor has no cooldown of course. I'm well aware of how a cooldown would affect this item and it's the reason, why the upgraded Deflective will keep the 0 cooldown.

Wupti's right and i wrote about it already in new weapons thread. Except light fantstic, ice canon and inf rockets there's no reasonable counter for deflective. New short range weapons with about 1s cd or remade old would be nice. I also don't see a reason to spend 3k gold for upped burst. This item is just to weak. My suggestion is to make it block all dmg done in 0.5s peroid every 4s. In most cases it still be weaker than deflective but good enought to spend gold for upgrade.

You mentioned three weapons, which cost 3000, 6000 and 7500 gold respectively. That already covers a pretty good range. The next best short range weapon would be the Blaster Cannon at 11000 gold. But since its damage is already pretty high, it won't get affected that much anymore. This is also true for every weapon after that. They all deal so much damage, that the Deflective Armor only has a minor influence anymore.
So my question would be, what kind of weapon (in which price and range class) do you think is missing?

[progg]

Exodus
Ice canon is 600 range, Light 800 range, Infernal 750, Blaster 660 (if i remember well).
So in <700 range weapons there's a price gap of 8000 gold, and there i would search a place for new/ramade weapon good vs deflective.
Some 5-6k and 8-9k ~600 range weapon will be nice. There's also HUGE gap between blaster and swarm of chaos. 1 dps oriented waepon in this gap would be great to see.

Btw: I remeber u asked question about most underused skills/tanks in past. Since w skill of sky tank was remade(i love it), now q skill seems a bit useless

[Wupti]

I think you misunderstood what I wrote there. The changes you have quoted are already implemented since v8.76. The numbers there only apply to the basic versions of both Burst and Deflective Armor. The upgraded Deflective Armor has no cooldown of course. I'm well aware of how a cooldown would affect this item and it's the reason, why the upgraded Deflective will keep the 0 cooldown.

hm, no i actually understood it but overlooked your comment about the upgraded.

Wupti's right and i wrote about it already in new weapons thread. Except light fantstic, ice canon and inf rockets there's no reasonable counter for deflective. New short range weapons with about 1s cd or remade old would be nice. I also don't see a reason to spend 3k gold for upped burst. This item is just to weak. My suggestion is to make it block all dmg done in 0.5s peroid every 4s. In most cases it still be weaker than deflective but good enought to spend gold for upgrade.

You mentioned three weapons, which cost 3000, 6000 and 7500 gold respectively. That already covers a pretty good range. The next best short range weapon would be the Blaster Cannon at 11000 gold. But since its damage is already pretty high, it won't get affected that much anymore. This is also true for every weapon after that. They all deal so much damage, that the Deflective Armor only has a minor influence anymore.
So my question would be, what kind of weapon (in which price and range class) do you think is missing?

Exodus
Ice canon is 600 range, Light 800 range, Infernal 750, Blaster 660 (if i remember well).
So in <700 range weapons there's a price gap of 8000 gold, and there i would search a place for new/ramade weapon good vs deflective.
Some 5-6k and 8-9k ~600 range weapon will be nice. There's also HUGE gap between blaster and swarm of chaos. 1 dps oriented waepon in this gap would be great to see.

Btw: I remeber u asked question about most underused skills/tanks in past. Since w skill of sky tank was remade(i love it), now q skill seems a bit useless

you both misunderstood what i was saying. I don't talk about the pricerange of weapons I'm talking about the fact that there is 3 shortrange weapons poison, laser, flamer. but all of them are low cooldown weapons and easy to counter with deflective. the weapon with the lowest range and counterable against deflective is light fantastic with range 800, so i won't classify it as a shortrange weapon. So basically what I'm saying is you need to make shortrange weapons (>700) with higher cooldown.

[progg]

So in <700 range weapons there's a price gap of 8000 gold, and there i would search a place for new/ramade weapon good vs deflective.

you both misunderstood what i was saying.[...] . So basically what I'm saying is you need to make shortrange weapons (>700) with higher cooldown.

?

[091846]

i personally think at no one use all of them as weapon they maybe use one of them as a weapon ,i dont think they will put all the egg in a busket like energy tel..........

[FreeJason]

I think you misunderstood what I wrote there. The changes you have quoted are already implemented since v8.76. The numbers there only apply to the basic versions of both Burst and Deflective Armor. The upgraded Deflective Armor has no cooldown of course. I'm well aware of how a cooldown would affect this item and it's the reason, why the upgraded Deflective will keep the 0 cooldown.

hm, no i actually understood it but overlooked your comment about the upgraded.

Wupti's right and i wrote about it already in new weapons thread. Except light fantstic, ice canon and inf rockets there's no reasonable counter for deflective. New short range weapons with about 1s cd or remade old would be nice. I also don't see a reason to spend 3k gold for upped burst. This item is just to weak. My suggestion is to make it block all dmg done in 0.5s peroid every 4s. In most cases it still be weaker than deflective but good enought to spend gold for upgrade.

You mentioned three weapons, which cost 3000, 6000 and 7500 gold respectively. That already covers a pretty good range. The next best short range weapon would be the Blaster Cannon at 11000 gold. But since its damage is already pretty high, it won't get affected that much anymore. This is also true for every weapon after that. They all deal so much damage, that the Deflective Armor only has a minor influence anymore.
So my question would be, what kind of weapon (in which price and range class) do you think is missing?

Exodus
Ice canon is 600 range, Light 800 range, Infernal 750, Blaster 660 (if i remember well).
So in <700 range weapons there's a price gap of 8000 gold, and there i would search a place for new/ramade weapon good vs deflective.
Some 5-6k and 8-9k ~600 range weapon will be nice. There's also HUGE gap between blaster and swarm of chaos. 1 dps oriented waepon in this gap would be great to see.

Btw: I remeber u asked question about most underused skills/tanks in past. Since w skill of sky tank was remade(i love it), now q skill seems a bit useless

you both misunderstood what i was saying. I don't talk about the pricerange of weapons I'm talking about the fact that there is 3 shortrange weapons poison, laser, flamer. but all of them are low cooldown weapons and easy to counter with deflective. the weapon with the lowest range and counterable against deflective is light fantastic with range 800, so i won't classify it as a shortrange weapon. So basically what I'm saying is you need to make shortrange weapons (>700) with higher cooldown.

ICE CANNON