Hunter's Plague Skill is Still too Over Powered

[horselance]

Wow, that was a nice post horse, I think you just ended the subject for now. Maybe some change will happen later though.

I play 4.53 version. There is also 4.547 but i dont like it..
Inde you probably didnt read rest of post or maybe you did, but didnt get the idea..
What i mention here is some tanks can go to the late game. And some tanks cant.. Zepplin and sky tank is in this group. Their only abilty is to sweep creeps, which is not enough in late game. And not enough vs strong tanks like demon, Frost or Hunter..

[Prog]

I play 4.53 version. There is also 4.547 but i dont like it..
Inde you probably didnt read rest of post or maybe you did, but didnt get the idea..
What i mention here is some tanks can go to the late game. And some tanks cant.. Zepplin and sky tank is in this group. Their only abilty is to sweep creeps, which is not enough in late game. And not enough vs strong tanks like demon, Frost or Hunter..

Why do I actually see (and play) Air ships and Sky tanks in the late game until the end-game tanks (sky fort/inf/titan) in private clangames on northrend? Even the helicopter can be played straight to infernal in those games and i doubt anyone would say that btnk/sake/bug clangames are lowskilled and not a good reference for balance issues.

[Althend]

I play 4.53 version. There is also 4.547 but i dont like it..
Inde you probably didnt read rest of post or maybe you did, but didnt get the idea..
What i mention here is some tanks can go to the late game. And some tanks cant.. Zepplin and sky tank is in this group. Their only abilty is to sweep creeps, which is not enough in late game. And not enough vs strong tanks like demon, Frost or Hunter..

Why do I actually see (and play) Air ships and Sky tanks in the late game until the end-game tanks (sky fort/inf/titan) in private clangames on northrend? Even the helicopter can be played straight to infernal in those games and i doubt anyone would say that btnk/sake/bug clangames are lowskilled and not a good reference for balance issues.

It is more that you don't see players going from airship to sky tank because the difference is still too weak. Increasing price and power of sky tank would make it much more interesting. Don't you think so? Losing 2.250 gold by selling airship to get the sky tank that is 3500 gold higher is not that interesting. It is my opinion.

[Prog]

It is more that you don't see players going from airship to sky tank because the difference is still too weak. Increasing price and power of sky tank would make it much more interesting. Don't you think so? Losing 2.250 gold by selling airship to get the sky tank that is 3500 gold higher is not that interesting. It is my opinion.

I do see players going from airship to sky tank, but of course less often. I'll try to explain some reasons:

*Sky tank is really good against ground, but it is in terms of skills worse against air than air ship. A change from air ship to sky tank is only viable if most opponents play ground tanks, otherwise the Air Ship + Gold Hull is stronger.
*Sky tank can be reached without getting any early midgame tank. If you can get sky tank without losing any gold, why should you get an air ship just to lose money and reach the sky tank later?

The most often used air tank strategies from my experience in intern games are like this:

Code:

starting tank -> zep -> frost -> Titan
starting tank -> zep -> sky fort/inf -> Titan
starting tank -> zep -> demon -> sky fort/inf -> Titan
starting tank -> zep -> sky tank -> sky fort/inf -> Titan
starting tank -> zep -> hunter (-> Titan)
starting tank -> sky tank -> sky fort/inf -> Titan
(Helicopter -> sky fort/inf -> Titan) - has nothing to do with zep/sky tank so i'll ignore it for the rest of this post

with these two

Code:

starting tank -> zep -> demon -> sky fort/inf -> Titan
starting tank -> zep -> sky tank -> sky fort/inf -> Titan

being the least often used ones.

You see another reason why zep -> sky tank isn't often played if you compare the strats often used and less often used. The two strategies change tanks more often than any of the other ones -> they lose more gold to tank changes. So this disadvantage which makes the build less often played does apply to demon as well, not a sky tank issue per se. Why does this occur?

I'll try to explain it (It's just an attempt, I don't think it will be completly correct in one try). Let's take at first the air ship and sky tank, later focus on the demon tank.

The most common strategies play x -> zep or sky tank -> y. It looks to me as the air ship and sky tank play both a similar role, as a midgame tank (one at the early mid, the other at the late mid). Sky Tank isn't used as a lategame tank, it is a late midgame tank which can be used as a midgame tank, similar as the Goblin is a late midgame tank in comparison to the thunder being an early midgame tank. Now the question comes into my mind: Why don't you say "Goblin should be changed becouse you just lose gold going from thunder to goblin"?. I assume (correct me if i'm wrong) it's becouse you don't see the goblin as a late game tank, but somehow you see the sky tank as one, tho it isn't. You mistake the sky tank to be in the same class of tanks as hunter and frost, but it might actually be in the class of goblin, earth. Late midgame tanks can, like most other midgame tanks, play in the lategame quite well if equiped with any hull(s), but can't play well in the endgame (sky forts, infs, titans). Of course they can also take the role of a normal midgame tank. An air ship->sky tank change is now an 'early midgame -> late midgame' change.

We can explain the demon tank analogue. The demon tank is mostly used in x -> demon tank -> y or x -> thunder -> demon -> y. For the x -> demon tank -> y case it is obvious the demon tank in the midgame tank role and for the x->thunder->demon->y case we got again the 'early midgame -> late midgame' change.

As you might have seen i use "midgame", "lategame" etc in a way which refers to their actual use and no static classes. In my opinion The terms should be constructed by the number of tanks used in a whole game (tho i keep on falling into old habits sometimes). For example: 'tinker -> titan' would mean 2 stages: 'early- and endgame'. 'Starting tank -> zep -> frost -> Titan' brings us to the "standard" of 'early-, mid-, late-, endgame'. 'Starting tank -> zep -> demon -> sky fort/inf -> Titan' implies 5 stages: 'early-, earlymid-, latemid-, late-, endgame'. Having more stages implies an additional loss of gold. Every 5 stage strategy has the additional loss, regardless if it is 'Starting tank -> zep -> sky tank -> sky fort/inf -> Titan' or 'Starting tank -> zep -> Frost -> sky fort/inf -> Titan' . None of those strategies are often played, it has nothing to do with the sky tank itself. 5 Stage strategies need to compensate the goldloss somehow, so it is only efficient if the additional tankchange gives any advantage, like the zep->sky tank might against 5 ground tanks, or scout->demolisher against 3 scouts in mid.


What really is interesting if we analyse that way is (which brings me directly to the topic):

Code:

starting tank -> zep -> hunter (-> Titan)

Hunter plays the role of a lategame tank.

Code:

starting tank -> zep -> demon -> sky fort/inf -> Titan

Demon tank plays the role of a late midgame tank.

Just 2 examples, but as far as i know the demon tank is not able to play the role of a lategame tank as often as the hunter can (if ever), even tho it costs more gold than a hunter. The hunter nearly allways is in the function of a lategame tank. It is obvious that this is an imbalance if analysed in this way, tho the way might have flaws. I'll suggest to replace the percentual damage to a fixed value.

(I hope someone understands this, it's written so bad~~)

[Althend]

Nice analysis, it follows the main problem: distinction between tiers and tiers 4 tanks.

Exodus used the system of defense requirement to create "artificial barrier". Looking at tiers 3 tanks (wich tiers 1 cant handle. The idea is you cant handle tanks that are 2 tiers above yours, so tiers 1 can handle max tiers 2, tiers 2 can handle max tiers 3)


Tiers 2:
Thunder 4k
Airship 4500
Ghost 4500
Gardian 5000
Heavy 5500
Gob 6500
Earth 7000

Difference = 3k but thunder can handle earth

Tiers 3:

Sky tank 8k (tiers 2.5?)
Hunter 9k
Demon 10k
Frost 13k

Difference = 5k but sky tank +5k hull can hardly handle frost



"artifical barrier"

Tiers 4

Sky fort 14k
--> Frost can handle sky fortress.

Infernal 18k
Titan 25k




There is a real lack at tiers 3 and tiers 4.
The requirement is quit a problem between sky fort and frost.
(maybe making requirement for inf et titan only?)


The player who play air cang get sky tank as tiers3 but meet the artificial barrier if he want to keep air. Since airship is at begining of tiers 2 (10 min of games) and sky tank is at begining of tioers 3 (or end of tiers 2?)m there is a bad position of this tank.

Concerning the demon, This is tank is some way the "average of tiers 3". Concerning the hunter, I agree, we should increase his price and adjust his hp but then the gap between sky tank and other tiers 3 is even more visible.

[Exodus]

I'll suggest to replace the percentual damage to a fixed value.

I get your point, but imo this would hurt the Hunter too much. There is a rather big gap between the strength (HP) of the tanks, when you are able to get the Hunter until the time you still can compete against the others with the Hunter. Finding a good damage value inbetween would mean, that it's too strong early and too weak later. When trying to further nerf this skill, I'd rather see a shorter duration, less slow or even make the skill channeling. I think it's rather important, that there is a possibility to break through a wall of massive HP tanks, which would normally take a long fight, after which both sides are forced to go back and heal.

Overall I can say, that I tried to balance the Hunter, by making his skills long range, but rather weak in close combat (which happens more often in lategame). The suggestion, that the gas also slows him and his allies might also fit in there.


As for Althends "problem". I think it's not important to force the tanks in some groups like these tiers. You say, according to these groups, the Sky Tanks doesn't right fit into the game, but then Prog says, it's still played pretty often (more than some other tanks at least). This just means for me, that your list does not quite reflect the real ingame situation. Every tank is designed to play a certain role and imo Sky Tanks plays his role as an anti ground and (kinda) anit building tank quite good.

And yeah, the defense requirements were first just implemented to make upgrades more valuable and to prevent direct rushes to the Infernal. It's still possible, but requires a bit more effort. The requirement-system in it's current form is not that well implemented, since it only affects the three most expensive tanks. The extended requirements would still fit better into the game, imo. That way, certain tanks would be played more often, just because they are available earlier.
But this is not the point of this discussion. When you are still interested in your tier list Althend, please open a new thread for this.

[horselance]

@Exodus : I dont think making extended requirements will make some tanks used more often. (maybe only in hb where money flows like hell)
It will just make ppl use better hulls earlier. Changing tanks often is not a good strategy anyway. And ppl will not sacrifice money for lesser tanks where they can wait 10min more for a much better tank..

@Althend: Sky Tank is really fitting nowhere i agree this. Too expensive for killing lesser tanks, and too weak to challenge vs demon, frost and hunter (even zeppelin and helli)..

@Prog: Zeppelin is used for just transtion and not good for fighting better tanks. It has mobility for good runs, good for killing creeps, thats why its used a lot, (ah and cost is easy to achieve also). When enemy buy a tank you cannot stick to your Zeppelin anymore... Especially Frost..
I myself use Zeppelin a lot too (60% of my games), but it does not mean it is not weak. What i mean by "weak" is not in meaning of its transit to other tanks. But i want all tanks to be able to used in late game just like hunter can.

@Subject: This ability is much disturbing then it is power. Because it never ends.. and when it has slow effect it is an obstacle on ground.
There are many solutions to make it a proper skill.
>Reduce duration - increase dps - decreasing total %damage
>Remove or greatly reduce slow effect
>Deal a disease like damage to area where effect does not stay on ground but on tanks that were hit by AoE. And no slow..

And i think not only this ability but also Ultimate around 10% duration reduction. Because this abilty is really weak (but disturbing) without Ulti.

[Prog]

Exactly that Tier 2,3,4 list althend mentioned is not true in my opinion. Sky Tank is in 4 stage strategies no T3 tank and demon isn't one most of the times as well. You mistake the role the sky tank actually plays in my opinion. Exodus seems to see it in a similar way:

This just means for me, that your list does not quite reflect the real ingame situation. Every tank is designed to play a certain role and imo Sky Tanks plays his role as an anti ground and (kinda) anit building tank quite good.

The role is different (from T3). If seen with more variable Tier-classes it's mostly a T 2 or T 2,5 (in 5 stage strats) flying anti ground tank and plays this role really well.

Some problems about your system of classify T1-4 (which made me get rid of such a rigid system):
2 of your T3 tanks (sky tank, demon) can't handle T4 at all, some can handle parts, but not titans. This makes me want to split T4 into skyfort/inf and Titan. So we got T1-5 now and we see the problem of this system: The norm of this Tier-System is a 5 stage strategy, but most people nowadays play 4 stages. It doesn't fit to the game as it is played. Your T3 is quite often just skipped, or sky fort/inf ( the T4 without Titan) are skipped by frosts. We need more flexible Tier-Systems in my opinion, that's why i suggest(ed) to change it into a tank-change based one. The gain is that we reach a basis for analysing different strategies way better, as for example 3 stage builds don't fit into your Tier-System, but they do in mine and they are played in internal games (Heli->sky fort/inf->titan; notice that this is even the favourite build of some skilled players http://forum.btanks.net/viewtopic.php?f=...9&start=11).

If we get away from such a rigid system of Tier 1-4 problems will resolve, as the problem "there needs to be a tank in Tx about y k gold" just doesn't exist any more. (->the "bad positioning" of the sky tank doesn't exist any more) The tanks are the basis and the Tiers are constructed by the use, the strategies around those tanks. The Tanks are not based on Tiers, the Tiers are based on the Tanks and their use!



Btw: "sky tank + 5k hull can hardly handle frost" is just false. Sky tank can handle frost well in most cases, it's especially easy if the frosts use short range weapons like they do in most cases.


@Exo: I get your point and I agree that it won't be easy, but take a look 1k gold lower: The skytank got aoe abilities with fixed values, tho without slow. Why shouldn't it be possible to take the slow into consideration and set the damage accordingly? But it might be better to deal someway else, becouse "it's rather important, that there is a possibility to break through a wall of massive HP tanks, which would normally take a long fight, after which both sides are forced to go back and heal.". I didn't think of that in this way before, but I think you're right that there should be a good way to deal with massive HP tanks other then playing the same tanks. As you mentioned some other ways of nerfing, I'd go for the channeling, becouse it's the way in which the nerf is based on the reaction of the opponents.

@horse: Why do I (and a lot other skilled players i know) do quite well with Air Ship in late game even against frost if it's not good for fighting better tanks? Your statement somehow contradicts with the experience from the games I play in.
Btw: I don't want all tanks to be useable in late game, but most to be useable till armor requirements and that's true right now in my opinion (3 stage heli build for example).

[scron2]

The solution to to add a new hull into the game that reduces the kind of damage that
is done by skills like hunters gas cloud or whatever the fuck it is.

Also since most people say lazer > high dmg weapons most of the time, a hull that
reduces a small amount of damage per attack would be good too. This way players
who get a lazer don't obtain a huge advantage over those who go items with high CD's.

Why is it that all upper tier items have typically low low CD's and none with 2 sec, high dmg?
There also needs to be a high CD weapon with splash dmg as an upper tier weapon with high dmg.

[TKF]

Well the hunters cloud ability is supposed to be super effective against high end tanks.


At level 5, the cloud does take away the enemy tanks hp by 40% of full, which also takes 10 seconds to achieve that. Which is actually quite long and the enemy is unlikely so long in the gas cloud so I find it unecesary to skill it lv5, but lv3 is enough for me playstyle.



And this is wrong thread talking about weapons with long/short cooldowns.

[Kesarion]

The solution to to add a new hull into the game that reduces the kind of damage that
is done by skills like hunters gas cloud or whatever the fuck it is.

Also since most people say lazer > high dmg weapons most of the time, a hull that
reduces a small amount of damage per attack would be good too. This way players
who get a lazer don't obtain a huge advantage over those who go items with high CD's.

Why is it that all upper tier items have typically low low CD's and none with 2 sec, high dmg?
There also needs to be a high CD weapon with splash dmg as an upper tier weapon with high dmg.

Yes... and there should be 2 more tanks like Titan, and Hunter should have fixed damage for gas Cloud, and pandas should have wings and soar over the sky and... etc. etc. sadly it seems there are bigger problems to attend to right now I don't know what it is but progress has stopped.

[TKF]

Yes... and there should be 2 more tanks like Titan

Offtopic:

y something like this


or

[attachment=0]

________________

Ontopic:

Anyway gas cloud will still be very effective against tanks with much hp. It deal ridiculous of damage against end game tanks.


Against demon tank it deals about 480 dmg pr sec
Against frost and sky fort it deals about 600 dmg pr sec
Against infernal it deals about 800 dmg pr sec
Against Titan it deals about 1050 dmg pr sec

This numbers are kinda average damage you would deal against those tanks (hull not calculated). scron2 have a point as many others before him implies in this thread that the gas cloud does high amount of damage vs expensive tanks. With the ultimate you get the enemy tank(s) stuck as well. I kinda see their point that this ability has a super advantage compared with other abilities. This ability can be compared with the infernals ultimate, and can deal more damage than it depending on enemies tanks hp.


I'm not sure if this was the intention when this ability was made for the hunter. Well if so the hunter is a very good end game tank slayer. I've also seen it taken down many enenmy tanks effectively with help of gravity grenade so it's still very effective in 8.64.


On the other hand, the ability have weaknesses that makes it ineffective against structures and air tanks, since the ability affects ground only. Also the hunter's abilities are little effective against structures, so it suck in sieges without teammates and sufficient weapons. Also it have a hero only cannon which is only effective against enemy tanks.



My opinion:

It's up to the mappers to balance the game. I say that the gas ability could be without the great slow induced from it. The teleporter item has a great advantage here when it comes of escaping the cloud. Speed item doesn't help that much when you are slowed greatly.

[scron2]

It could be changed from a percentage of the tanks MAX HP
to a percentage of the tanks current hitpoints.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That makes sense.

Think about this: A titan will take 1400 dmg /s for 10 sec = 14,000 HP.

Under the new proposal: (consider a titan with 17500 HP left)
OLD:
13,500; 12,100; 10,700; 9,300; 7,900; 6,500; 5,100; 3,700; 2,300; 900 ------ 17,500 - 900 = 16,600HP lost. [broken]
NEW: (using loss of 4% of the tanks current HP)
16,800; 16,128; 15,489; 14,869; 14,274; 13,703; 13,154; 12,628; 12,123; 11,638 ------ 17,500 - 11,638 = 5862 HP lost. [reasonable]

Now if you buff it to say 5 - 7 % of the tanks current HP, then you don't get such a broken BS skill.
You can say there are counters to it but the fact remains that the hunter is a LOW HP tank. It
should not be intended to do the teams tanking just because it has a "late game" skill. The tank
should be nerfed accordingly so that people do not abuse the game.

[Kesarion]

It's a good solution scron, also, the change can be done quickly. I don't think the Hunter sympathizers would agree though and that could be problematic :roll:

[SCorpA1]

[...]. Which is actually quite long and the enemy is unlikely so long in the gas cloud so I find it unecesary to skill it lv5, but lv3 is enough for me playstyle.
[...]

but there is still the ulti of the hunter + the slow of the ability. imo you can hurt other tanks very hard
AND both abilitys are aoe so it can damage up to all enemy tanks damn hard with only 2 skills.

[scron2]

It's a good solution scron, also, the change can be done quickly. I don't think the Hunter sympathizers would agree though and that could be problematic :roll:

The only main difference is that it would be used more to initiate, and defend... rather than outright rape & finish them ontop of all that. Like I said, you can tweak the numbers to fix the "LACK OF DAMAGE" as if that really is a problem but in all seriousness, something needs to be done to stop this tank from having too much of an advantage against nearly every single strong tank that is land based.

Am I wrong when I assume that the hunters gas cloud used to work on air tanks too? Or has it never worked on them? With my suggested edit, you could even allow air tanks to take damage and it would still be "balanced" ... which seems fair enough to me.