Sky Fortress Overpowered

[bangyouredead]

I think if the titan's keep on fighting ability was changed so that you were invinc and not just invinc until youre basically dead but pure invinc like the trader has, then this would equal things out between the SF. It still wouldnt be balanced at all unless the titan was reduced to maybe 20k and 20 upgrades, but it would make it at least somewhat of a fair game again. A note on the net counter, for no other ability do people have to waste an inventory slot the entire endgame in the hopes of maybe launching it first (tp breakers dont count as you can just drop the item anywhere and pick them up to use). Btanks is starting to get a little monotonous/boring for me in the end of somewhat equal and high scoring games, as its all just SFs...if you cant beat em join em. No one wants to carry a net or place tp breakers all over the map and follow that route of the breakers only or not be able to tp to a SF ever for a kill, even when they are nearly dead. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz i hope they are working on some way of balancing this, getting tired of writing and listening to the countless complaints over this, with I think 2 people actually defending the SF lol...... :roll:

[bangyouredead]

It's not overpowered generally. It's just strong in 1v1 or 2v2 fights (like antigrav), but in 3v3+ Infernal is way stronger, so it's quite well balanced for 5v5.

Just a quick rebuttal inter to this point. You say it is good in 1v1 or 2v2 but when in a 3v3 or 5v5 are all players clumped together all game. Maybe towards the end they tend to be, but if people take the side lanes to attack base it will always be a 2v2 or 1v1 battle somewhere. In that case Sf wins every time hands down. Also, to say infernal is way stronger is tough to back up. Level 5 bombs can do 12000 plus damage to multiple opponents and if you move enough you dont get hurt at all, the SF can tp (with a tp) and the accelerate so you never catch it, and at level 16!! you have a 4,2 sec stun! Eeven with a rarer 5 plyers against 5. as long as your SFs arent all in a 200 area then a simple (delayed) infernal stun is not going to do much. Just spread your SFs around your opponents and they are screwed... So saying it's the SF is just strong/impossible to beat is a little bit of an understatement. :?

[Prog]

At the time when sfs are in the game mostly all players are at the same location, or at least have teleporters, so it will be quite unlikely to get a real 1v1 or 2v2 situation (that will happen sometimes, but the team without the sf should change their tactics if that happens frequently). Regarding the bombs: Their aoe is quite small in comparison to the skills of the Infernal.

And as I said before: Please show me at least _one_ replay where we can see the alleged imbaness of sf. But i guess you can't.

[Gammagulp]

I got one - but I dont know how to send it to you. We were owning the game - got infernal and titans - and 3 factories with 30/30 creeps (enemy maybe 25/25creeps) and the enemy base nothing, but 2 Laser tower and the Base-HQ.

We got good weapons and our enemies, too, but we should have won easily.
3titans vs. 1titan+2SF .... no chance - we lost .....
That should be replay enough !!!! (we couldnt do anything against SF with you titan skills, and Inf not really too.
(the SF skills all worked the best vs titan)

Dont tell me we played stupid as we owned till that point and were not able to kill the end base in 3v3

[Prog]

When you're writing a post you got below the text box a button named (in german) "Dateianhang hochladen". I'll watch it and comment on it. (Btw, getting Titan in 3v3 against sf is a mistake, becouse you need the stuns. Of course it's easy to get owned if you just have one tank which can stun, the sfs just need to use their ulti on this one, the other tanks can't stop them (no stun). In bt it's not like "the most expensive tank is allways in every situation the best tank".)

[bangyouredead]

When you're writing a post you got below the text box a button named (in german) "Dateianhang hochladen". I'll watch it and comment on it. (Btw, getting Titan in 3v3 against sf is a mistake, becouse you need the stuns. Of course it's easy to get owned if you just have one tank which can stun, the sfs just need to use their ulti on this one, the other tanks can't stop them (no stun). In bt it's not like "the most expensive tank is allways in every situation the best tank".)

Well sorry inter, I don't keep very many replays. I suppose everyone here is lying and the SF is actually a balanced tank...come on...As far as the rest of what you wrote, it often happens that people get split up in the endgame. If you have SFs and take the sides then unless youre right on the base that's way out of tp range, and someone has to stop you. Then it's 1v1/2v2 whatever and youre screwed, always...unless of course you have a SF. You said getting a titan against a SF is a mistake which is kind of laughable...like saying infernal is a bad choice against air tank. Of course different tanks have different abilities and some work better against others, as well as complimenting your own teammates...howevever, a tank that costs 9,000 more gold and 11,700 gold in extra upgrades should probably be better. That's 20,700 extra gold...use some common sense.

[Prog]

When you're writing a post you got below the text box a button named (in german) "Dateianhang hochladen". I'll watch it and comment on it. (Btw, getting Titan in 3v3 against sf is a mistake, becouse you need the stuns. Of course it's easy to get owned if you just have one tank which can stun, the sfs just need to use their ulti on this one, the other tanks can't stop them (no stun). In bt it's not like "the most expensive tank is allways in every situation the best tank".)

Well sorry inter, I don't keep very many replays. I suppose everyone here is lying and the SF is actually a balanced tank...come on...As far as the rest of what you wrote, it often happens that people get split up in the endgame. If you have SFs and take the sides then unless youre right on the base that's way out of tp range, and someone has to stop you. Then it's 1v1/2v2 whatever and youre screwed, always...unless of course you have a SF. You said getting a titan against a SF is a mistake which is kind of laughable...like saying infernal is a bad choice against air tank. Of course different tanks have different abilities and some work better against others, as well as complimenting your own teammates...howevever, a tank that costs 9,000 more gold and 11,700 gold in extra upgrades should probably be better. That's 20,700 extra gold...use some common sense.

1.

I suppose everyone here is lying and the SF is actually a balanced tank...come on...

Nice polemic start, doesn't have anything to do with the actual topic (actually there are not that many people claiming that the sf is overpowered, but the ones who are "make quite some noise"). Other players said to me I shouldn't argue with(even reply to) you - as you're getting to a quite polemic level they might be right - oh, do I become polemic too? Refering to a group of people is quite dangerous generally: If there are 100 random people which you don't know and 1 medic, whom will you believe in a question about your health? The 100 random guys as you can't suppose everyone of them is false?

2.
Why should anything that costs more be necesserily stronger, regardless of tactical questions? Bt isn't and shouldn't be that easy.

3.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, it often happens that people get split up in the endgame. If you have SFs and take the sides then unless youre right on the base that's way out of tp range, and someone has to stop you. Then it's 1v1/2v2 whatever and youre screwed, always...unless of course you have a SF.

Well, basically you're wrong. Until the very late game (~2 hours+) one inf can handle a sf at the cp alone. Afterwards 2 infs can use some sort of easy strat: one uses cp-porter, the other one waits ~3 sec and cp ports then, when the sky fortress will allready be using his ultimate. Then it's quite easy to stun (/kill) him. And if you're in offense right now, then the sf can take the cp but you'll jump with (for example) 5 infs into their main base, killing everything. (In such a long game it's anyway just about the main-base kick at the end)

[k-bones]

I just wanna say SF is not overpowered. Overload is designed in a way that makes you come really close and vulnerable, disabling your movement, so in most situations you cannot get a kill and survive. In 1v1, no creeps around, Inf can simply die to SF, but not Titan - have you forgotten about his ulti?
For all who complain about Titan having no stun - gimme a break. When it would have one, it would be more than imba -.- just imagine 25 tank stun... invincible.

[bangyouredead]

1.

I suppose everyone here is lying and the SF is actually a balanced tank...come on...

Nice polemic start, doesn't have anything to do with the actual topic (actually there are not that many people claiming that the sf is overpowered, but the ones who are "make quite some noise"). Other players said to me I shouldn't argue with(even reply to) you - as you're getting to a quite polemic level they might be right - oh, do I become polemic too? Refering to a group of people is quite dangerous generally: If there are 100 random people which you don't know and 1 medic, whom will you believe in a question about your health? The 100 random guys as you can't suppose everyone of them is false?

2.
Why should anything that costs more be necesserily stronger, regardless of tactical questions? Bt isn't and shouldn't be that easy.

3.

As far as the rest of what you wrote, it often happens that people get split up in the endgame. If you have SFs and take the sides then unless youre right on the base that's way out of tp range, and someone has to stop you. Then it's 1v1/2v2 whatever and youre screwed, always...unless of course you have a SF.

Well, basically you're wrong. Until the very late game (~2 hours+) one inf can handle a sf at the cp alone. Afterwards 2 infs can use some sort of easy strat: one uses cp-porter, the other one waits ~3 sec and cp ports then, when the sky fortress will allready be using his ultimate. Then it's quite easy to stun (/kill) him. And if you're in offense right now, then the sf can take the cp but you'll jump with (for example) 5 infs into their main base, killing everything. (In such a long game it's anyway just about the main-base kick at the end)[/quote]

You got me Inter, I am quite polemical lol..(I looked the word up.) Yes I love a good debate, but generally only persist when I realize I am correct. First of, Exodus already addressed this issue in another post and admits that some balancing needs to be done, so I am satisfied. The medic analogy was a nice try, but doesn't apply. These arent random people. These are btank players and people who have encountered this issue, so were all medics, though some slightly better. Also, how does "I suppose everyone here is lying and the SF is actually a balanced tank" have nothing to do with the topic? lol.. It is called "SF overpowered" and the original poster gives a detailed discription of a game showing the imbalance. Sadly, however, he has no replay so we can't believe him? For your second response, it is simple math. How can 20k+ extra gold not equal an advantage... Where else in the game to you find such a huge discrepency? It has nothing to do with skill/tactics, just one overpowered ability. Again, use common sense. A basic magic doesnt beat a laser no matter how you play it. etc. Thirdly, that is hardly an effective counter/easy kill. If you do that the SF(assuming it is alone, if not 2 SFs could easily beat you) could simply tp away and/or use speed boost and only one could follow. It would also take time to launch stun. Also saying that 1v1 a SF cant beat an infernal at a CP is flat out incorrect. 1:30 MAX it is USUALLY easily possible. With stun, bombs and short range weapons np...Also, I am requesting replays of any claims that you have made as I must review each of them to make a sound decision. You don't look like a medic to me, inter...

[Prog]

The medic analogy should just show that a single one can be right, tho 100 say he isn't (I thought with random people this could be seen easier, but it seems I was wrong). You can imagine they are 100 medics who think you got 1 certain disease and just one medic who thinks you got another one and he can be right (maybe becouse he is a better medic, I won't go into this). So this analogy does apply (but of course, not in the sense you interpret it). ; )

how does "I suppose everyone here is lying and the SF is actually a balanced tank" have nothing to do with the topic? lol..

I'll just point to the word "everyone", which implies that everyone here would in the opinion sf would be overpowered, which is obviously false. But my wording was missleading (my english is not that good, I'm sorry for that), becouse it of course has something to do with the topic, in a really wide way of interpret the meaning of the connection, but the statement you gave is just false, so it isn't relevant for the current discussion.

How can 20k+ extra gold not equal an advantage... Where else in the game to you find such a huge discrepency? It has nothing to do with skill/tactics, just one overpowered ability. Again, use common sense.

Wanna bet on this? You get a tinker with 2 lasers and i get a light tank with 2 basic magics (or 1 if you like) and you will have no chance, even tho you have ~12k more gold. You see that skill/tactics do matter? I guess you might say something like "there's a difference between tinker+2 lasers against light tank and sf against titan", but how can we judge when the difference matters and when it doesn't without being arbitrary? [If you say this compare doesn't fit becouse one refers to a different tank/weapon ratio, i'll respond that at the sf vs titan, the sf has much more weapons as well, becouse the titan had to invest the gold into the tank. So effective it's +0 gold, not +20k - If he did upgrades it's even -x. A heli with hulls and weapon can handle a goblin tank as well.]

Btw:

Yes I love a good debate, but generally only persist when I realize I am correct.

Who would persist if he thought he's wrong? But as this debate seems to go a bit too far ot and both of us don't seem to change their opinion, we shouldn't use this thread for further discussion, instead use pm.

Here a replay, which doesn't show the mentioned allegedly easy way of coping with sfs if they go to the side lanes cp, but it show how more sf don't win. You'll remember that one.

[bangyouredead]

Yeah, I'm getting bored wih the discussion as well. The medic analogy does not apply. If 99 medics said I had cancer I wouldn't believe the one that said I had pneumonia. Yes, he could be right, but what are the chances. Chances are the majority of people who know what theyre talking about are right...Sorry you misunderstood after changing your analogy. I was hoping you wouldn't go to the extreme with my analogy, though I assumed you might. yes a tinker with with a laser would lose against a light tank with basic...in nearly every situation, however, the laser wins. That is the point, and that it how it should be as it costs so much more. With the SF it is the "basic magic" that is winning. For your last point you said it is effectively +0 gold because the SF has more weapons. Ok, but still the SF would win because it is overpowered. Most cases I've heard and games I've played, however, haven't been like this. It's been a situation in which the guy with titan has been owning all game and has better weapons, but still loses to a weak opponent who got SF. Nice debate, but I'm satisfied, as I said in my last post, as Exodus has agreed with me and the majority of people that the SF is overpowered. They can be the judge as to how badly it is, but clearly they realize that something needs to be changed. Maybe you will too.. 8)

[NoobStrike]

Quite honestly, SkyFortress is ... to some extend OP... I did really see it when I played a game we were clearly losing. It's 3on3... status is we're down 2 kills, (something like 30-32) and our 2 mid factories been taken out. Our 3rd player upgrades armor to 16, I buy SkyFortress Fido1 buys Infernal...

Turn of event, they get 1 infernal and still have 2 demontanks vs 1 inf 1 sky and 1 demon... we have problems pushing but we re pushing back (make sense, we have 2 top tanks vs 1)... we claim our mid CP back, they have 2 inf 1 demon vs 1 inf 1 demon 1 sky and game is just over... I got 21 kills while I got 3 death, got 2 frosts lasers and blablabla the end is me on SF and Fido1 and who ever was on our team 2 titans vs 3 titans... We just destroyed them as they did not even have a stun for me no more...

Now, I did read a very interesting idea for sky fortress change. Here's what I'd like to see:

New Ult: Duration: ALWAYS 3 seconds. Completely disables your tank.
Damage: 300/second/level. So basicly, 600 damage/s at level 2 (1,800 total) and so on.

If that is OP, make it 300/s/level + 150 or 200 per level (play with the numbers...)

The idea is to keep it unique with the weapon disable. On the other side, you do not make it overpowered late game.

Early skyfortress can still get a damage boost from it's ult, making it more viable early game.

Finally, 1 very necessary fix is the Titan's stun. The stun needs to 'hit' air units. This is probably the biggest nerf you can do to SF. If you don't want to go this route, add a ministun (0.1 second) to the huge pointblank AOE from titan. This really just is to give titan a way to break SF's ultimate on a teammate.

[TKF]

The disable weapon feature of SF ulti will be removed in the next version.

[frankiethefly]

3 Titans should always win against 2 Titans and one SF or even more SF if the skill lvl is equal and the money lvl is equal(meaning pro of course), too.
Many people seem to forget that Titans can use nets to "stun" a Skyfortress that is doing hold on someone. That one slot you lose really doesn't hurt a lot at this game, you lose basically about 800 dps per tank but at the end the teamwork is all that matters not the dps.
The dmg skills of the SF are difficult to use and I havent seen them being useful in end game yet, so the guys with the third titan have 11k aoe burst dmg more at their disposal which makes more then up for the initial dmg the SF deals while jumping on an isolated titan till the others can come to help with net.

I think the game fido and the others won was because fidos team had more skill in late game, like jumping the enemy at the best time and using the ults in the best moments. There are a lot of people that are very strong mid game and early late game but still lack the feeling how to use the titan(e.g. ultimate) right(and obvioulsy they dont utilize nets).

Even in 1vs1 situations its still the skill of the person that counts because with net and your titan stun(2 sec or longer? i forgot) you can stack like 4 seconds of firing your weapons on a tank with less hp plus you have 11k burst dmg!
So if you jump him you win, but if he jumps you he wins(which I honestly doubt if you are staying in creeps range and he isn't fed). Sounds a lot like its a fair game ;P .

I'm sad it gets changed.

Edit:
I can only repeat myself => Net is the key to beat SF. At least half of my clan doesn't use them often including some big names like abel, fido...I guess they are skilled enough to not use them but if they start using them air will be very weak and so will the SF be.
@Noobstrike
Why does the Titan need to hit air with his stun? Thats too much of a buff for him honestly. He can already utilize his stun on air units if he uses nets, because once they are tied to the ground they count as ground units dude. => 6k dmg + stun duration if you time the stun right.

P.S.:
Don't kick me from clan please, I can't log on in the next few weeks other than haunting the forum so I can't play a lot ^^

[k-bones]

The disable weapon feature of SF ulti will be removed in the next version.

Noooo that's the whole point! You're making it all boring and repeating just another stun... come 'on, it's an ULTIMATE! with long cooldown! make it longer or something, just don't make it stupid and useless... who wants a 750 range, no-damage stun as an ulti??? hock:

[TKF]

Noooo that's the whole point! You're making it all boring and repeating just another stun... come 'on, it's an ULTIMATE! with long cooldown! make it longer or something, just don't make it stupid and useless... who wants a 750 range, no-damage stun as an ulti??? hock:

I'm a member of the beta team, and this change is inevitable. Mohahahahhaha... :mrgreen: the ability is still imba as a superlong stun, so it still pwns alone with holding.

[Exodus]

And as such, you shouldn't go around blab all the changes. It's not that I want to make a big secret out of it, its just that I don't want to dissappoint people when something is not in the final version or has been changed due to problems or like in this case, that they don't know all the changes and start discussing about it, without knowing everything.

As for the ultimate, the SF will also receive only about half the normal damage, when using System Overload, additional to the fact, that weapons won't be disabled anymore.

[TKF]

And as such, you shouldn't go around blab all the changes.

Sry about that. I'll keep beta stuff more secret in the future.

But I kinda liked the 50% resistance stuff, if it's 3v1 you holding, they must do twice as much damage to kill you, and it is no longer a instant kill in 1v1. I think it's fairly balanced with this solution. Also it could be more imba this way, cuz it strength you while you hold, while the opponent being hold also has a bigger chance to survive the hold.

[Exodus]

And as such, you shouldn't go around blab all the changes.

Sry about that. I'll keep beta stuff more secret in the future.

Its ok, its not that important anyway. But I felt that I have to say it at least once

[NoobStrike]

Meh, don't try to be a nice guy now that you pwned him in the face HARD!!!
Gogo Exo!!! Btw, when's the release so we can test the sky fortress.